[LURKERS] EitB 29

[Mafro]

I hope someone posts the power graph next turn....

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A very opportune time to post that
Ellimist sent me his save for this turn, which I've attatched below. I'm very busy with the map for EitB33 right now, which is why I won't post pictures myself. Tracker is here: ffh.29.tracker@gmail.com and the password is progenitus.

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Related chat:

Elli: but i'm assuming from your post in the lurker thread that you saw my update in 29
i managed to wipe out the support units in HK's stack
no idea how far away his reinforcements are though
me: yeah I saw it
well done!
did you kill Madero?
Elli: yeah
he was actually the defender for my first assassin
i had 40% or so odds with one of my midlevel ones
i expected to lose that one and then kill him with the second, but i got him on the first battle
that's the funny thing about channelling promotions... they decrease the unit's normal stack defense priority rating
me: alwats a nice suprise
Elli: except assassins use the reverse order
yep
he was pretty much doomed though
me: yeah
Guardsmen definitely needs altering
Elli: since he was the first defender, he would have been the top defender when wounded too
i like FFH's "balanced imbalance"
also i think the deepening has been crucial
mardoc's MFG took a hit, so he'd have more reinforcements if i hadn't done it
me: seems so, and it must help with odds too
Elli: unfortunately i got a lot more tundra than i wanted too, but i can't exactly complain about it
winterborn is only 10% i think
the funny thing is
i know i'm not going to win this one
me: yeah
ha
you can try!
Elli: but HK's weakness as a player is the same as Rhoanna's weakness
i can, and i will
i won't give up
HK knows how to build up an empire and manage it well
but not how to translate that into a victory
and his tactics haven't been bad, but there's no reason he should have had these units where they were when he has Naval superiority
me: yeah
Elli: sorry, i realize you may not be familiar with the situations due to my poor reporting
me: people forget boats though, because we always play on pangaea
Elli: my coast on that side is ridiculous
me: I''m vaguely familiar because I read back after I saw your post
Elli: he could devastate me with an amphibious attack
would you like a save to peruse?
me: which game?
(could you add me to the 32 tracker btw)
Elli: oh sure
sent you my latest end save
"progenitus"
is the password
me: whats that mean?
you found frigus! trololololololol
Elli: yeah lol
me: bet mardoc just put that in as a prank
what'd the spider kill
Elli: lots of goblins
me: or have you just not healed it?
Elli: i've been buried in barbs
me: oh I see
Elli: i've healed it, mostly, and then killed more goblins
me: hmm
Elli: i had a mage with regeneration at forty three for awhile
me: I didn't realise it worker from that far away
Elli: this gigantic stack of poison goblins came out of Brian's land
oh, you see i have his wonders tagged, lol
that was when i thought he would wait for me to attack
and i could sneak some assassins in
but now he'd definitely be expecting it
me: yeah
Elli: razing those wonders was the only chance i would have had
me: I love the griffons hanging around
Elli: lol
<3 griffons
too bad i fucked up with the circumnav bonus
gifted the damn thing to brian by mistake
me: shame is that this game will probably just go to tower
Elli: griffons would have had it in a half dozen or less turns too
well it probably will
but seriously, there's no reason for that
me: what is brian doing?
Elli: you see how many freaking cities HK has?
zoom in on his cities
most of them have planar gates
me: yeah
Elli: i mean wtf
me: i know but that can just be ffh noobism
Elli: i'm just being friendly but leaving him and tholal to do their own thing
me: but look at where the cities are placed!
if this map were half the size someone would've swallowed him by now
Elli: and hopefully i can stonewall HK and draw enough of HK's units off of DaveV's front that he can make some gains with commando units
yeah, this map is too damn big
we asked mardoc for big but this feels like he went too far just to mess with us
also my land sucks
look at the seafood near me and compare to everyone else
me: at least everyones land sucks now
Elli: yeah
deepening is 400 freakin hammers though
me: how'd you get HK maps?
Elli: hyborem!
lmfao
he had them somehow
me: hahaha
Elli: and sold them to me for like, 150 gold
me: still silly mistake for HK
Elli: i have no freakin clue why he gave it to him
i'm guessing Hyborem made a demand
me: even so
Elli: either that or he starts with the summoner's maps, but i'm pretty sure it wasn't that way in base FFH
me: hmm...actually that might have been it
Elli: also something weird too
i'm pretty sure in FFH-14 i explored other people's land with floating eyes I put into their cities
me: I've seen that changed in one of the mods, can't remember if it was just MNAI though
how do you do that?
Elli: but in this game, even with OB, i can't rebase a floating eye into anyone else's city
me: don;t they doe after one turn?
Elli: if your adept/mage has spell extension, you can "rebase" the floating eye and then explore right away with it
2 moves is all it needs
me: oh wow
however, I think that might be changed
Elli: that part isn't
but putting them in rival cities is or something
me: one of the things in the log is that hawks can't travel to rival cities
Elli: i bet that's it
damn :/
me: probably for the best
Elli: i liked making use of that, even if you don't put the unit into it(due to an agreement or something) you can find the cities in the fog
i love this game so much... it's so deep
me: too overpowered early on really, maybe enable it later
Elli: so many things and layers of things
me: yeah
Elli: and even in something like 29
i mean
it's hopeless
it has been for a hundred turns
me: Mardoc says it's too simple, BTS is more complex because you can't just easily win
Elli: but it's still fun to spend literally hours coming up with plans
me: but there's still so much in it
Elli: BTS is less complex, no question
BTS is too "solved" for my tastes
and winning FFH isn't exactly easy
you have to find something overpowered and dodge the overpowered stuff other people are doing
me: yeah
Elli: btw look at how much exp my adepts/mages have
me: I'm misquoting him, I'll find you the post
Elli: CHA/ARC is very good
especially so with all the barbs I’ve seen
me: yeah really awesome
Elli: you see that i didn't pop the two barrows next to my cities?
me: the thing is, a really big map is good for FFH combat
because it stretches out the distances and mobility is less overpowered
Elli: it is... but if i'd had any clue exactly how big it would be, i never would have picked auric
me: but there's a cost
Elli: never ever ever
me: oh yeah
who?
Elli: any expansive leader would have been better
me: Jonas
Elli: any organized leader would have been better
me: (betting on the clan)
Elli: clan would have been awesome
but illians i would put into the rubbish pile for a map like this
me: settle 30 freaking cities, ignore the barbs until you're twice HK size
Elli: by all rights, Brian and Tholal should be doing better than me
Tholal with EXP and brian with BARB
me: then kill everyone with ogres and ships
yeah
Dave too really
Elli: yeah
me: cities are too far apart
he looks way bigger then you on the map
Elli: mine or theirs?
me: daves
Elli: Dave got a lot of cities with loki from the barbs i think
me: even so
Elli: yeah
you know what dave's biggest problem is
me: Furias a weird chick
Elli: he overreacts to everything
or overestimates everything
me: like deepening?
Elli: yeah
that, hyborem
HK in general
me: (not that you could overestimate deepening)
Elli: eh
the thing about the deepening, or the blight
is that most cities have certain tiles that are food negative
and others that are food positive
me: yeah
you can micro a lot out of them
Elli: you shift your workforce over to the food positive ones and then your city might starve away some of the food negative tiles
the deepening and the blight have a similar impact as far as that goes
me: huh, hell doesn't go to ice
Elli: now... if you're running STW
no ice doesn't flip
but StW means that you aren't affected as much
whereas the rest of us due to blight were already starving away our food negative tiles
me: imagine being hybie on a map like this, settling ice with no idea what it'll turn into
Elli: heh
well it takes awhile to flip back
me: does it go to hell instantly?
Elli: each tile i think has a 1% chance per turn individually of thawing
me: if ice and counter changes
Elli: the "hell terrain counter" won't be affected by the deepening changes
because hell terrain can spread through ineligible terrain like ice or ocean
me: yeah, but if you're Hyborem and you settle on ice tiles that are really plains beneath
what happens?
Elli: if/when they thaw, they will become the hell equivalent of plains
me: oh, i thought they might flip immediately
Elli: but they would do that anyway, since hyborem automatically flips all the tiles in his culture at the end of turn anyway
i'm pretty sure hell terrain doesn't override the deepening effects
me: yeah
you built tod yet?
Elli: no
i'm not sure i'll ever be able to
me: yeah :/
Elli: all my mages are tied up on the border
so i can't reconfigure my nodes
me: still, SoW!
and snowfall!
Elli: yeah, that would be nice
if HK gives me a break maybe i will
but none of my cities are great for production
me: why hosts, incidentally?
Elli: because hosts rock
specifically...
okay they're the same base strength as ice elementals with different strengths/weaknesses
i already started with 1 law mana
me: true
Elli: so i could set 2 nodes to law and get Law 2 for free on every mage upgrade
me: forgot that
Elli: before i had them set to law mana, i had them set for free Meta 2 promotions
and gave those adepts ice spells
me: ah
Elli: the meta adepts needed spell extension anyway
for floating eyes
so of course i wanted to give them another summon too
me: why?
Elli: and ice just made sense because it helped me handle the barbs with much fewer losses and more exp yield
why what?
floating eyes without spell extension is silly
me: why spell extebsion?
Elli: because spell extension lets me summon a floating eye and then move it to any of my cities and scout out of it
me: oh
Elli: i can keep watch on any border without keeping my adepts tied up on that border
me: what's the plan with thenorthern workers?
flanking
Elli: also i've been desperately short of adepts for awhile
uhhh
that's a contingency plan
btw the statistics don't show it
but i lost 7 workers to blight damage
adepts i mean
7 adepts
me: uhh, i hate that
Elli: i forgot it could kill and i was just so busy trying to keep these damn barbs back
me: blight damage killing is just silly
Elli: multiple gigantic stacks hit me at the same time
dave lost loki too :/
me: especially with animals
oh yeah
Elli: i got lucky with my griffons i think
both were wounded but partially healed
they heal so slowly outside of borders
me: didn't see that one was 4move
Elli: hehe
me: noice
Elli: he can't really kill anyone without combat promotions
but i gave him M2 to get circumnavigation
before i fucked that up
me: nah, but keeps him jumping
what happened?
Elli: i was a half dozen turns away from it
i had a wolf moving east below Dave's land
it reached that coast over there
and my M2 griffon moving west through brian's land
me: yeah
Elli: i was 5 or 6 turns away from making it
and then i got cartography and started trading maps
brian had explored further west than i anticipated
me: oops
Elli: yeah
i was so close already that his own maps just filled in the gap
me: that's something he could help with if he bothered...
Elli: i dunno how the game decides tiebreakers since we traded and technically both got it at athe same time
me: turn order
(i think)
Elli: yeah he's #1 then...
me: ouch
Elli: it was irritating but what can i do
live and learn
me: you know of any unit that gets the staff of souls naturally?
or is it event?
Elli: uhh
i think it's an armageddon unit
Ars Moriendi
me: ah ok
Elli: +3 death combat and affinity for death mana
me: yeah
Elli: War is Buboes
me: strong item
Elli: Crown of Command is stephanos
and Athame is yersinia
Ars is the last of the four so we see him the least often
me: funny recognised all but the staff
admittedly, athame is only because I place it every time i try worldbuilder
Elli: you know how to check that right?
easily find any errors like that
me: zoom and push show all units?
Elli: open the wbsave file in notepad
well that too
but you can do ctrl+F
search for athame
me: ah true
Elli: or see if there are any lizardman ruins, etc.
me: you made any maps?
Elli: nah
i'm too obsessive
it would take me too long and i'd still get frustrated by the results i think
that's pretty much why i don't do player summaries at the start of my threads too...
me: I have no idea what you're talking about.....
:/
Elli: what do you mean?
me: I'm the same
Elli: ah I thought you might mean that
btw, feel free to post that save i sent you into the lurker thread, or any screenshots or whatever from it
i know i've sucked at updating, but it is an interesting enough game
me: will do
very interesting really
Elli: you have the tracker address and password right?
i know you['re not my dedlurker but feel free to pull any of my saves off that
ffh.29.tracker@gmail.com and tracker29 i believe
me: pity there's no one like thoth/mardoc/illios else in it
will do
but going away for a week so may be a while
Elli: well no obligation
i only mention it because i suck at updating so much for this game
dave seems like a reliable reporter but i don't know if his updates are quality or not
me: not very in depth, but as you say reliable
Elli: and i suspect the turns are becoming exhausting for HK
the empire management that he's probably doing right now would be similar to what i did in my Jonas game
me: worst part of a big game
Elli: but then he has to manage blight and the deepening together along with two wars
me: even yours would take ages
Elli: my Illians?
me: yeah
Elli: i'm spending probably 2 hours on average per turn right now
but over half of that is all mental
me: yeah, that's why i only play duels
or small games
Elli: it will get easier after next turn i suspect
HK hasn't played his turn yet, so this is just speculation
me: you think you can kill his stack?
Elli: but unless he has more ritualists than i've seen on this front, he's going to retreat
i can if he doesn't retreat
but he will retreat
if he has any sense he will retreat and it's HK's style anyway to play more defensive than offensive
even when he's invading he plays defensively
so either he will RoF my stack with ritualists this turn or he will back off faster than i can pursue
he may give up all of the land from Junon on down
and hold me off at the chokepoint
then he'll regroup and invade me amphibiously
me: if he thinks of it
Elli: i'll probably raze the roads with summons just to seal off that front
he already has a galleon and privateer in the water
i'm building privateers but he has more coastal cities than i do and they are more productive than mine
if DaveV can raze his canal city, that will help a ton
but he's so fussy i don't even want to suggest that
me: does dave have boats
Elli: i think so, but he hasn't shared that much info
i've told him a hell of a lot more details than he's told me
he definitely has cultists
me: oh yeah
so probably
he going mage route?
Elli: maybe?
15-20 turns ago he didn't even have KotE
his gameplan really makes no sense to me
i was sending adepts over to improve his nodes and had them halfway there when he said not to bother
Sent at 4:42 PM on Wednesday
Elli: sorry i haven't posted the diplo... Bob's summary in my thread is pretty much spot on lol
i've bcc'd him on most messages i've sent
me: nah daves posted a bit
I really wish eitb had merged with mnai
they've got these really good worldbuilder tools
Sent at 4:45 PM on Wednesday
Elli: can't you build it in that mod
and then load it with the other
Elli: btw HK recently completed his tower of alteration too
me: has he got toe?
Elli: no he only has ToA so far
me: and ToD?
Elli: only ToA
it's in, uhhh
Ihara, next to his enchantment mana
i think he finished it this turn, but i forget if i checked the victory screen last turn
i try to check everything every turn but know that i miss things sometimes
me: what does ToA evend do?
Elli: enemy units are -20% to resist spells
your units are +20% to resist spells
me: not bad I suppose
I'd still rather have mithril
Elli: i'm guessing he went for it first because it requires body/enchantment/nature/life
his palace gives him nature
me: yeah
Elli: he'll need life anyway for hell terrain
enchantment and body are both quite useful on their own
and he has a ton of extra hammers
plus extra gold
plus extra everything
me: how'd he get so far ahead of Tholal?
Elli: lol, looking at his map... i iced the crap out of him
i dunno
i think he's just a better player than tholal
but the EITB FIN pairs well with EXP
me: yeah
Elli: the FFH FIN did too but EXP can push the science slider low which is when the new FIN is good
me: course, FFH FIN pairs well with everything
Elli: then Mardoc gave him a ton of coasts
so TR economy
me: he get TGL?
Elli: of course
nobody else has the amount of coastal access that he did
so he had no competition
sorry, i refrain from complaining about maps in my threads but i am not fond of this map
in my spoiler threads i try never to complain about bad RNGs or maps
me: so long as you refrain from complaining about my maps, its fine :P
Elli: hehe
well
complaining about RNG is just stupid
right?
me: DONT MENTION XXVI!
Elli: i mean, i get some lucky breaks and some unlucky ones
me: oh phew
yeah
Elli: if you look back at my threads
i'll mention some of the good ones, they usually are noticeable in some way anyway
me: I mean, mention what it did and all, but don't get hung up on it
Elli: but i very rarely try to mention or elaborate on the bad breaks
because what good will it do
and often there's a counterparty who got good luck by my bad luck
as far as maps... the map is already made at that point
i can't change that one
me: yeah
Elli: and everyone complains about maps
me: YEAH!
Elli: maps are like the RNG, sometimes it favors you and sometimes it doesn't
and i will surely do all that i can to break a map in half (to my advantage)
see, uhhh, several of my games for examples
me: uhh every game
Elli: lol
i still feel bad when i think of Lewwyn and FFH14
he hasn't signed up for a FFH game since
and he's such an awesome guy
me: biggest one is '14 obviously, but if I think back over them my biggest memory is of you breaking a game
Elli: lol
me: yeah its sad
Elli: the mirroredness in 20 turned out to be kinda broken
me: lots of player have done that really
Elli: 9 was tight enough that a charadon rush worked out
me: you could even count Mardoc now
18 you were only a dedlurker but you patented the Basium brokenness
Sent at 5:11 PM on Wednesday
Elli: haha
well i was originally a dedlurker
eventually i was Basium
me: have you even played in a map where you haven't broken it somehow?
Elli: bob won that game more than i did though
i've lost a few games
me: I mean '25 was the galleys
Elli: but in general when i win, i try to make it look easy/broken
eh the galleys werent broken
me: no not really
Elli: it was just a powerful strategy and well executed
me: hey, most ffh
is
Elli: and i outmaneuvered mardoc in 25 too
me: Basium IS broken in EitB, but its also a very good strategy and requires a bit to execute
FFH9 was like that
me: yeah
then you did the wolf thing
which was awesome actually
Elli: which?
the wolf pack movement refresh thing?
me: wolf riders
from the lair
Elli: hiring 50 wolf riders was in FFH20
did i hire wolf riders vs mist in 9? i forget
me: didn't you do something similar in 9>
Elli: i might have, i know i built a lot of horsemen too
me: smaller scale of course
Elli: oh yeah i did use wolf riders too
now i remember
me: that's what I love about FFH
all the little details
Elli: so many awesome little details
me: very imposing to get into unfortunately
Elli: worthless in some situations, amazing in others
for instance
purge the unfaithful
are you familiar with it?
me: yeah
Elli: do you know what it's for?
i might have explained it in one of my threads
me: causes revolt and sends out non state religions
no?
Elli: yeah exactly
the purpose of it, as far as i can tell, is for religious victories
me: yeah thought so
Elli: specifically, surprise religious victories
especially Esus
me: oh yeah, I remember Ravus was going to do that in '8
with hawks
Elli: yeah
it doesn't make them easy...
but it's a nice tool available to help with it
me: uhh that's another thing that wouldn't work anymore
with the no rebase thing
Elli: yeah ;/
i like so much of EITB
Elli: but so much of FFH didn't need to be balanced
me: yeah
Sent at 5:30 PM on Wednesday
Elli: the funny thing about diplo too
all you have to do is empathize with and understand (deeply) the other guys position
treat him with respect
and offer him something that he wants but also benefits yourself in some way
sometimes that's easier than other times
but that's part of why NAPs are fundamentally a bad idea most of the time
because they end up being zero-sum and they remove a critical component (military force) from the negotiations
me: yeah
Elli: i'd rather offer a one-sided "I won't attack you until __" pledge
me: especially in ffh its easy to pick up military techs anyway
Elli: because that at least acknowledges the fact that the offer is zero-sum
yeah
i very very rarely want anything to do with a NAP
Sent at 5:40 PM on Wednesday
me: but if they do attack, you respond, no?
Sent at 5:49 PM on Wednesday
Elli: sure
i just don't want a NAP where taking advantage of it means making myself vulnerable to the other guy
if they want a NAP, it's because they want that
usually
they're not asking for a NAP because they want to attack me or invest in a military
and most of the time, i'm okay with the idea of them not building a military...
even if they aren't going to attack me with it
in FFH20, HK wasn't militarily prepared enough to do anything about my invasion of Weezel
because he knew i wasn't going to attack him
Sent at 5:52 PM on Wednesday
me: ok that makes sense
Elli: having units on hand = having options