[PB66 Spoilers] Miguelito and Ginger split the bill

[Ginger()]

Thread title seemed suitable for playing an Organized leader 
Looks like we’re going to have some pretty stiff competition this game. I’m curious what torusland script spits out, so I’m going to go roll a few and see.

[Miguelito]

PASSWORD  is ah


Hey coming in late, and I have not really organized (hoho) my thoughts, so just some random words?
Ashoka of Vikings! Can go Hammer of Thor as well, but Spi is always a joy. Darius has been done... Mjmd has said that there'll be water. We could even do a personal first and build GLH before Amica does.
Gandhi of Inca, to abuse the monk economy after I pushed Charriu to give cheap monasteries - but you're playing that game already, aren't you? Inca is our early game trait, and it's sufficiently different from BTS that I don't mind playing them.
Frederick of America, or whatever? Just because I haven't played Phi since PBEM 64(?) and Ginger also likes it....
Gotta reread the changelog one of these days...

Anything that you'd want to play? Tbh I've been hot on unnerfed Vikings since before PB54 (my one CtH snakepick, and we had the one landlocked capital. Worked out ok though ). So if we get the chance I'd probably want that and pick whatever Org leader comes back.


chop guide edited in:

Mjmd's Guide to Forests
hammers: provided by a chop outside your borders pre-Math / outside your borders with Math | within your borders pre-Math / within your borders with Math. All numbers are for Normal speed.

1st ring: 13s: / 20s: | 20s: / 30s:
2nd ring: 13s: / 20s: | 20s: / 30s:
3rd ring: 10s: / 16s: | 16s: / 24s:
4th ring: 08s: / 13s: | 13s: / 20s:
5th ring: 06s: / 09s: | 10s: / 14s:
6th ring: 04s: / 06s: | 06s: / 10s:
7th ring: 02s: / 02s: | 03s: / 04s:
8th ring and beyond is worth nothing with or without Math.

[Ginger()]

I think Asoka is on the shortlist for best CtH leader (at least with dry land that doesn’t incentivize cottaging everything and whipping), but torusland seems pretty rich usually.

I too have had my eye on Vikings, but also the new Japanese Tatara looks really good. It’s basically half of Ind and half of Agg.
If you have a hankering for Hammer, I would definitely suggest Japan, triple promo melee before Feudalism sounds like a guaranteed sim sandbox away from the Superdeaths and GAVAGAIs of the world. While I still don’t think it’s an optimal pick, the new cost reductions for Agg really help make it more convincing.
I definitely want to revisit Gandhi someday, he’s been a blast, (possibly with Egypt for the prophet bulbs and shrine?), but too soon for a repick.

Miscellaneous thoughts:
If we’re land locked, I feel like Mehmed of Aqueduct UB might be fun.
PHI Dutch sounded fun before Charriu slaughtered EIM (well ok, they’re still strong), but that kinda took the wind out of my sails.
FDR sounds fun for a medieval push but I feel that Tarvac or Amica will snap him up.
Zara is snoozy but solid.
if you’re not totally sick and tired of FIN, Hannibal is one of the better leaders around for the more pop > more cottages > better cottages loop.
If we get monoculture resources at the cap, it’s worth looking at Byz (imo they pair better with PRO or FIN than ORG), but you recently played them and it’s a one dimensional game of click Currency, shift click Banking

[Miguelito]

Rather no Fin. I've been assigned with it twice now, and while it surely is powerful, it still doesn't spark joy (and much less in CtH). Btw regarding Cha and cottages- so far I've always managed to not let happiness being the constraint on whips but food available, even without Cha. Probably a function of tight dotmaps, and maybe I should try and settle a bit spacier? What I mean is, generally if I don't work cottages it's because the cities can barely grow back at the pace I'm whipping them, not out of lack of .

One more: Lieu-Ye, or Nappy, of Spain. I've never teched Military Tradition, and I've been told that you have some recent expecerience . The UB is also nice. Just have to figure out how to cover both tech paths. Nappy (or Hannibal, if you insist) has to pay in full for the citadels, but gets Nav1 on ships with citadel and vassalage.

Japan is interesting but doesn't hold up with Vikings.

Currently, assuming no landlocked start, I'd pick Vikings first and take Asoka or whomever Org on return. If the Vikings are gone we can pick a leader and take Japan or Spain on return?

If landlocked, might still go Vikings out of defiance, or... huh, Arabia? I'm becoming a one trick pony with the knights rush, but if they don't look like knights nobody will notice?

Is Agg synergy or antisynergy for Vikings? You want to attack with zerks, and C1 and barracks no doubt help - however isn't one main function of Agg to provide amphibiousat 5XP, and the Vikings get thatanyways? Agg Japan however gets amphibious Samurai with just barracks and forge. Otoh vassalage is standard anyways. I'm not sure I've ever built a maceman in multiplayer. So, go for something fresh? But honestly the appeal of Vikings is 90% in the fast boats.

[Miguelito]

hm, so Fin has +50% banks, and Pro +50% markets, had forgotten those - and ultimately they don't matter too much, but both are nice. Still, I've had my share of Fin, but Lieu Ye goes up on the list.

If we were to pick Freddie, what would be a bulb path worth exploring? Germany for Chemistry->Steam Power? civac proposed that way back in 56. SP apparently is bulbed by an Engineer, and if we have one at that point we'd probably want him for something else, but with Chemistry we're half there. But mostly the UU sounds fun. In a 10 player game that era might matter, although if you go for optimum you'll want something earlier (and likely won't pick Freddie).

[Ginger()]

Sorry if my thoughts seem all over the place (because they are)

I imagined that Japan had 90h forges but reading the patch notes, they're 100, which has sort of taken the shine off for me.

I would argue Agg is antisynergy for vikings, imo the zerks exist to be promoted CR2, then upgraded to Grenadiers/Rifles (likely Grenadiers if water map).

Yes, Mil Trad gud tek, 2 mover smash
Spain starting techs... less smash
Likewise, Citadels feel like the coolest bonus you probably won't use a lot. I'm less enthused by super siege in multiplayer than I would be with just massed mounted. My sense is that the fundamental interaction between siege stacks is mobility, first strikes, better field defenders and numbers, as opposed to the individual quality of the siege.
If you're not CHA, the Citadel ship buff needs both Vassalage and Theo, and if you are CHA, you're probably running both of those civics and getting to 6 xp is extraneous.
Lieu-Ye of Spain is interesting though because she wants early sailing for ICTR and Lighthouses, and her traits are great for chasing extra early techs like religions (while Pro might not affect say a Buddhism second city culture bomb, it certainly helps with playing catchup afterwards)

SPI really tears me in two. On one hand, it's absolutely incredible in/after medieval, but if you're not doing things with early religions, Oracle/Pyramids, or making use of the temple discount via monk trinity, then it's just so slowww.

It's strong and maybe better under ideal circumstances, but I feel like PHI can pull some tricks out of the hat like Shrines, Forge Engineers, wonder GP's, or Astro bulb in less optimal situations where SPI might not be allowed to setup. Well, to be fair, this is a rather ironic argument to make, as PHI also requires setup in all the examples I listed above. (I don't know what I want). Both traits are powerhouses in the renaissance, and I think the game probably ends in the early/mid industrial, so maybe PHI starts to choke up a little at the end there.

As for Germany, I feel like they're the land-based early industrial civ, and Dutch are for water. The Dike is a stronger UB than the Assembly Plant if you're not Pangaea, and on a water map you'll probably have to research Mil Sci for SoL, negating the main advantage of the Risengarde. The key issue with the Assembly Plant is that Coal plants stay in place at Assembly Line, so it's "just" a 25% bonus, not the full 75% with power.
The only problem with the Dutch that I see is that UB and UU tear you in two directions, FIN or PHI, respectively. Although I still happily grow a non-FIN, non-Colossus Moai city, so maybe I'm fretting about nothing.

I think it's fair to say that a game this large might go all the way to that era so that merits discussing.

I kind of want to see what the start gives us before I start spinning my wheels endlessly
I also think that if you play the kind of game the traits ask of you, almost any leader in CtH is competitive, so imo it isnt a question of a "right" strong choice, but what do you want the plan to look like? A sit-in place beeline to Astro or Guilds? An early pressure campaign with boats from the fog? I've converted to the Church of Guilds recently. Banking rivals Civil Service as an economic tech (on pitboss-scale maps) and Knights... ye.

[Ginger()]

So I’ve filtered my thoughts a little and I had the following selection suggestions (assuming water)
Vikings first:
If capital brown or hilly, high production, low cottage potential: Asoka or FDR to buff the hammer pumpage (through Serfdom or IND multiplier)
Or Lieu Ye to soften the blow of a low commerce capital and allow us to go ham on expansion.

If capital high cottage/Bureaucracy affinity, Frederick or Zara for the academy/easier scientists. I think Bureau and Academy together are very strong but separately they’re eh ok. Vikings will want CS for the Zerkers, and ORG means running that civic isn’t expensive.

Additional tech path synergy exists for PHI and Civil Service with Theo-Paper for optional Monk (and maybe necessary to supplement lack of Vassalage) and Edu bulb for Libbing Astro (which might be better than bulbing it as non-Dutch given the Paper requirement for Galleons)

Backup pick:
Dutch?
Frederick/Zara or Asoka with an eye on Caste/Paci.
In case you consider CS a distraction tech (I know opinions are divided, I’m bullish on Bureau), Dutch allows Astro boats and promos by ignoring Theo/CS->paper  and just going down the Knights path. 

Exp Carthage meme pick? given that the circumnav bonus is locked behind harbors now, might tip them into being a strong building.

Spain?
Probably has to be Lieu or Nappy, Asoka if we want to use that Mys start. I think I like LieuYe best of these three for Spain.

[Mjmd]

Note I may still very well change anything outside the cross.

[Miguelito]

Yeah, Vikings seem solid

[Miguelito]

*grumble*
Surely they'll also reroll the snakepick order that had us in the third spot for a good chance at or desired pick, right?
Now if Mjmd picks Vikings I'll be mad.