Is Cracks Call too powerful?

[rgp151]

Well, my only problem with these suggestions is that pretty much everyone agrees that Nature is the weakest school to begin with. So why take the weakest school and make it weaker? Cracks Call is one of the few things Nature has going for itself. I could perhaps agree with taking away the irreversibility, however this really only benefits Life wizards, which I don't think really need a benefit and plus Life wizards can still resurrect Torin, even if he is CCed.

However, despite that, I will admit that I've reloaded plenty of times when a hero or some critical unit got CCed right off the bat. It always feels like a turn 1 CC is bogus when it takes a key unit. But really, the fact is that generally speaking you shouldn't be using heroes to fight enemy wizards, you should instead be throwing waves of disposable units at them. There are certainly times, especially on defense, when it can get forced, but still.

The main issue I have is this: CC at least helps to level the playing field between the human and the AI, because let's face it, the AI hardly every uses really powerful units. Very, very rarely have I seen the AI roll out with some uber hero that can't be killed, yet I'm often able to put together hero stacks that the AI has no hope of ever being able to defend against, sometimes even with Web+CC. But generally, when I see the AI using CC, I keep my heroes out of battle with them until I can take the capital with a full stack of disposable units like Slingers or a bunch of cavalry type units (Paladins, Elven Lords, Cavalry) or Doom Drakes or Air Ships or Fantastic Units, etc.

I mean, Nature has to have something going for it. And CC is one of the few things that a player can use to try and get ahead with Nature, doing stuff like CCing Behemoths or Great Drakes, etc. And I've also had to use it on Torin before as well (though, again, it doesn't totally kill him, but once you take a capital...).

[mxb2001]

I've never felt that after I got CC I was on easy street and I could just coast to victory. It's just another tool. Useful at times, not at others.

Likewise I've never given up and surrendered because the AI got CC and used it on me. I'd just adapt and find another way.

[resnet34]

Well, my only problem with these suggestions is that pretty much everyone agrees that Nature is the weakest school to begin with. So why take the weakest school and make it weaker? Cracks Call is one of the few things Nature has going for itself. I could perhaps agree with taking away the irreversibility, however this really only benefits Life wizards, which I don't think really need a benefit and plus Life wizards can still resurrect Torin, even if he is CCed.

However, despite that, I will admit that I've reloaded plenty of times when a hero or some critical unit got CCed right off the bat. It always feels like a turn 1 CC is bogus when it takes a key unit. But really, the fact is that generally speaking you shouldn't be using heroes to fight enemy wizards, you should instead be throwing waves of disposable units at them. There are certainly times, especially on defense, when it can get forced, but still.

The main issue I have is this: CC at least helps to level the playing field between the human and the AI, because let's face it, the AI hardly every uses really powerful units. Very, very rarely have I seen the AI roll out with some uber hero that can't be killed, yet I'm often able to put together hero stacks that the AI has no hope of ever being able to defend against, sometimes even with Web+CC. But generally, when I see the AI using CC, I keep my heroes out of battle with them until I can take the capital with a full stack of disposable units like Slingers or a bunch of cavalry type units (Paladins, Elven Lords, Cavalry) or Doom Drakes or Air Ships or Fantastic Units, etc.

I mean, Nature has to have something going for it. And CC is one of the few things that a player can use to try and get ahead with Nature, doing stuff like CCing Behemoths or Great Drakes, etc. And I've also had to use it on Torin before as well (though, again, it doesn't totally kill him, but once you take a capital...).

OK, so at least you agree that it curtails certain strategies. I play at Extreme level, and the enemy often has both top Heroes and Fantastics, and, I have to say, even the top of the top Heroes are not immune, especially at this level, against top Fantastics. 

When you say 'when I see the AI using CC, I keep my heroes out of battle', all that means is that you reload the game, right? And it's a bad sign, same as with Time Stop - I see no point in this spell, as at Extreme AI has nearly unlimited mana, and the only way to actually play is only by hard-exiting. 
If N is underpowered (if you say so), there are many other ways to balance it out - e.g. by overpowering other spells, including very simple ones.

[resnet34]

I've never felt that after I got CC I was on easy street and I could just coast to victory. It's just another tool. Useful at times, not at others.

Likewise I've never given up and surrendered because the AI got CC and used it on me. I'd just adapt and find another way.

So you are totally OK with losing a unit cost 2000 to research, 700 mana to cast and 15 to upkeep (Behemoth), by a spell costing 20 mana, without a resistance roll or chance to resurrect in any way?

[rgp151]

But the issue is that when going against Crack's Call you should not be risking such units to begin with. Cracks Call should force you to change your strategy. I'll admit, the most difficult situations are when a mixed-magic wizard gets Cracks Call, like Nature & Chaos or Nature & Life or Nature & Sorcery, and you may get forced into needed to use a super unit. But also remember that Rocks beat everything, so in most cases, when all else fails, you can throw Catapults/Airships at a situation.

Cracks Call should generally be a way of a Nature wizard forcing their opponent not to use heroes against them. But even still, you can get Wraithform on a hero and then CC is useless. In fact, a fun Artificer + Runemage setup is 4 Death + 3 Sorcery + 2 Chaos. Tis gives you Wraithform and Flight (in case you need it for heroes that can't hit flying, like ShinBo). Its kind of a nice change of pace to 5 Sorcery setups.
But really, you shouldn't be able to put together 100% invulnerable units.

Against Cracks Call, the answer is to use disposable units, like either Fantastic Units or Normal Units.

[resnet34]

But the issue is that when going against Crack's Call you should not be risking such units to begin with. Cracks Call should force you to change your strategy. I'll admit, the most difficult situations are when a mixed-magic wizard gets Cracks Call, like Nature & Chaos or Nature & Life or Nature & Sorcery, and you may get forced into needed to use a super unit. But also remember that Rocks beat everything, so in most cases, when all else fails, you can throw Catapults/Airships at a situation.

Cracks Call should generally be a way of a Nature wizard forcing their opponent not to use heroes against them. But even still, you can get Wraithform on a hero and then CC is useless. In fact, a fun Artificer + Runemage setup is 4 Death + 3 Sorcery + 2 Chaos. Tis gives you Wraithform and Flight (in case you need it for heroes that can't hit flying, like ShinBo). Its kind of a nice change of pace to 5 Sorcery setups.
But really, you shouldn't be able to put together 100% invulnerable units.

Against Cracks Call, the answer is to use disposable units, like either Fantastic Units or Normal Units.

Mind you I'm talking about mid-to-late game at Extreme+ difficulty, when AI plays with tonnes of cheats.

I admit you have a point about army formations, but, given that we are talking mid-to late game, sending low-level units against a Nature wizard with strong units and CC is basically useless. What if you are playing against only 1 wizard with at least 1 Nature book to begin with, or multiple Wizards with Nature book(s) which they can acquire through successful encounters? Web and GS are common, CC is uncommon, Wraithform is Rare, meaning you need 4 or 5 tomes for a decent chance to acquire it. 

Toward late-game N wizard will have a Colossus, Great Wyrm, top-ranking race units and CC, Web. I also need top units to defeat him, but what can I use against CC (or Web+CC), that can immediately eliminate nearly any top unit I have, that cost tonnes of mana, research and time to upgrade? 

So no, sorry, none of what you wrote overrides my arguments above.

[drake178]

So no, sorry, none of what you wrote overrides my arguments above.

You mean your explanation of why, in your opinion, Cracks Call gives the caster an unfair advantage? Assuming, of course, that you are referring to the post that starts like so:

I am the original poster. Let me explain certain aspects of the spell that imo give the caster an unfair advantage.
...

Anyway, I thought we've pretty much settled on the first page that defending against or countering Cracks Call is not a topic of interest in this discussion? Which was a shame, because that may well have been the only meaningful attribute of comparison given the theme, genre, and design philosophy of the vanilla game. So is that back on then? Because I believe both in mid-to-late and late game there are effective counters to a Cracks Call opponent in pretty much every realm, with Life probably actually being the easiest to work with...

[Anskiy]

Anyway, I thought we've pretty much settled on the first page that defending against or countering Cracks Call is not a topic of interest in this discussion? Which was a shame, because that may well have been the only meaningful attribute of comparison given the theme, genre, and design philosophy of the vanilla game. So is that back on then? Because I believe both in mid-to-late and late game there are effective counters to a Cracks Call opponent in pretty much every realm, with Life probably actually being the easiest to work with...

Yeah, I would be interested in a list of Crack's Call counters, though I don't think the spell is "too strong", just kind of cheap.

[rgp151]

Yeah, I would be interested in a list of Crack's Call counters, though I don't think the spell is "too strong", just kind of cheap.

1) Wraithform
2) Invisibility (Just don't end your turn next to a enemy unit) (Doesn't work if they have True Sight)
3) Flying (With ways to remove Web, such as Disenchant)
4) Counter Magic
5) Torin (can always be resummoned after battle)
6) Use "disposable units" (i.e. Fantastic units or easily replaced Normal units, such as Pikemen, Shamen, Slingers, Doom Drakes, Draconian Bowmen, etc.)

Approaches by school:

Death
You should mainly be relying on Shadow Demons and Wraiths by the time they have Cracks Call, so little to worry about. If you have Heroes, put Wraithform on them. 

Life
Use Torin if you really need a powerful hero in play, he can at least be resummoned. Otherwise, use masses of replaceable units, such as Barbarian Cavalry & Berserkers, Slingers, Longbowmen, Pikemen, Shamen/Priests, Doom Drakes, Hammer Hands, etc. With the ability to pump out Normal units at a high rate, and stuff like Alter of Battle, you should be able to overwhelm with numbers.

Chaos
Use Fantastic units like Chimera, Doom Bats and Gargoyles, or massed ranged units like Slingers and Longbowmen with Flameblade.

Sorcery
Invisibility, Counter Spell, Flight, Disenchant, Phantom Beast, Air Elemental... Don't send your non-Invisible heroes into battle against a Nature wizard. 

Nature
As usual, Nature has the least options for countering anything. But still you can use masses of Fantastic units, like Basilisks, your own Giant Spiders, and use as many flying units as possible, such as Gorgons, Griffins and Draconians, or cheap units like Barbarians and Halflings.

The main key is, when going against Cracks Call, unless you have a hard counter, like Wraithform or Invisibility, you need to rely on large numbers of replaceable units, instead of a few super powerful units. I think a lot of people just don't like doing this, which is understandable because using mega-heroes and other super units like Sky Drakes is fun, but there has to be some counter to them. I mean, yeah, if you are in a spot where somehow you've allowed a Nature Wizard to sit in a capital filled with Great Wyrms and Giant Spiders, then you may be stuck, but hat really shouldn't be happening to begin with. Another thing is knowing which wizards pose the biggest threat to your strategy and going after them hard first. If I'm playing Nature then I want to go after Death ASAP before its too late, while I may not worry too much about Chaos or Life wizards. If I'm using a hero strategy then I'll try going after Nature wizards early, or hold off once they get Cracks Call until I get Invisibility to use my heroes or Paladins against them, but may try taking them with something like Slingers or Doom Drakes if I have the chance, etc.

But yeah, I've had games where is was very frustrating to go against. I recall one game where I think I was playing heroes with something like 3 Life and 5 Sorcery books with Famous and Charismatic or something, and so I was relying heavily on heroes, and I had Flight and Magic Immunity on all my heroes, but still something stupid like a wizard 2 Nature books was hammering me with Cracks Call. There were defensive battles where I would open with a full strength +40 Counter Magic, then they would still somehow get off a Web and Cracks Call and first try kill. I recall it being really insane and it happened multiple times. Of course I reloaded, because "that shouldn't happen"

[resnet34]

Yeah, I would be interested in a list of Crack's Call counters, though I don't think the spell is "too strong", just kind of cheap.

1) Wraithform
2) Invisibility (Just don't end your turn next to a enemy unit) (Doesn't work if they have True Sight)
3) Flying (With ways to remove Web, such as Disenchant)
4) Counter Magic
5) Torin (can always be resummoned after battle)
6) Use "disposable units" (i.e. Fantastic units or easily replaced Normal units, such as Pikemen, Shamen, Slingers, Doom Drakes, Draconian Bowmen, etc.)

Approaches by school:

Death
You should mainly be relying on Shadow Demons and Wraiths by the time they have Cracks Call, so little to worry about. If you have Heroes, put Wraithform on them. 

Life
Use Torin if you really need a powerful hero in play, he can at least be resummoned. Otherwise, use masses of replaceable units, such as Barbarian Cavalry & Berserkers, Slingers, Longbowmen, Pikemen, Shamen/Priests, Doom Drakes, Hammer Hands, etc. With the ability to pump out Normal units at a high rate, and stuff like Alter of Battle, you should be able to overwhelm with numbers.

Chaos
Use Fantastic units like Chimera, Doom Bats and Gargoyles, or massed ranged units like Slingers and Longbowmen with Flameblade.

Sorcery
Invisibility, Counter Spell, Flight, Disenchant, Phantom Beast, Air Elemental... Don't send your non-Invisible heroes into battle against a Nature wizard. 

Nature
As usual, Nature has the least options for countering anything. But still you can use masses of Fantastic units, like Basilisks, your own Giant Spiders, and use as many flying units as possible, such as Gorgons, Griffins and Draconians, or cheap units like Barbarians and Halflings.

The main key is, when going against Cracks Call, unless you have a hard counter, like Wraithform or Invisibility, you need to rely on large numbers of replaceable units, instead of a few super powerful units. I think a lot of people just don't like doing this, which is understandable because using mega-heroes and other super units like Sky Drakes is fun, but there has to be some counter to them. I mean, yeah, if you are in a spot where somehow you've allowed a Nature Wizard to sit in a capital filled with Great Wyrms and Giant Spiders, then you may be stuck, but hat really shouldn't be happening to begin with. Another thing is knowing which wizards pose the biggest threat to your strategy and going after them hard first. If I'm playing Nature then I want to go after Death ASAP before its too late, while I may not worry too much about Chaos or Life wizards. If I'm using a hero strategy then I'll try going after Nature wizards early, or hold off once they get Cracks Call until I get Invisibility to use my heroes or Paladins against them, but may try taking them with something like Slingers or Doom Drakes if I have the chance, etc.

But yeah, I've had games where is was very frustrating to go against. I recall one game where I think I was playing heroes with something like 3 Life and 5 Sorcery books with Famous and Charismatic or something, and so I was relying heavily on heroes, and I had Flight and Magic Immunity on all my heroes, but still something stupid like a wizard 2 Nature books was hammering me with Cracks Call. There were defensive battles where I would open with a full strength +40 Counter Magic, then they would still somehow get off a Web and Cracks Call and first try kill. I recall it being really insane and it happened multiple times. Of course I reloaded, because "that shouldn't happen"

...so, in other words, you agree, that to counter a basic spell like CC you need rare and expensive spells like Invisibility, Wraithform or copious amount of mana in Counter Magic pool, right? Well it's obviously a vastly imbalanced spell then! If you add at least some form of Resistance rolls, it would more or less mitigate it