CS Slingshot - Is it overpowered?

[uberfish]

I'd like to point out that comparing the Oracle-CS path with other highly focused, synergistic wonder paths might not be the right basis. We need to consider Oracle-CS against all alternatives, including a wonderless "normal" build strategy.

I brought up other wonder builds because:

- I wanted to get out some empirical figures to support my argument that the research advantage per turn generated by early bureaucracy is not out of line with other Ancient Wonder based strategies, which are the CS slingshot's direct competitors.

- it's difficult to make an accurate economic comparison with say, early wonderless land grab to 8-10 cities and spamming cottages. The problem is the growth curve in that model is different. When you landgrab like that, you are accepting a brief period of economic downtime in the hope that your superior mass will catch you up later.

IMO, 20 commerce is under-generous. If you're going for the CS slingshot, you'll heavily be focusing on cottages early. A river alone is often worth 8 commerce for a size-8 city, and if your civ is Financial you'll have 5-7 more. Add five Villages (30 turns of working cottages) and you have up to 30 commerce for a financial civ, plus the palace. And it's not just about the situation in 1 AD.

Not all your resources are on rivers though, and I didn't want to bring financial into this, because we'd then have to consider the effects of synergistic traits on the other strategies such as Philosophical with pyramids.

Thirty turns later, your capital will often be pushing size 11 with five Towns and three more Villages. Bureaucracy is now operating on a base of 50 or more commerce, and it just goes up from there.

The reason I picked 1 AD as a comparison point is that shortly after that date, the other builders who didn't open with the CS slingshot are going to have Bureaucracy too.

[Gusto]

... is there a tick box for "no wonders allowed" in the custom game settings?

There’s no option to disallow wonders in the custom game. You traversed on a idea that could bring this whole discussion to a compromise. Let’s make your suggestion a variant! RB is about variant play to create new and challenging play experiences. Sirian could design future RB games where the variants hinder or eliminate certain strategies considered exploits. I believe we’re beginning to see his efforts in Epic 8. Disallowing wonders sounds like a great variant in itself for a standalone RB game, this idea can be expanded to focus on specifics:
* “No Building Oracle” to prevent Oracle/CS Slingshot; however you still have the weaker Prophet/CS Slingshot as an option.
* “Must Research CS” to completely eliminate CS Slingshot. You’re still allowed to use Oracle to grab another tech.
* “No Building Wonders Prior 1000BC” to hinder the strategies: CS Slingshot, Pyramids/Representation/Great Library, and Lighthouse/Colossus.
* “No Building Ancient/Classical Wonders” to eliminate strategies: CS Slingshot, Pyramids/Representation/Great Library, and Lighthouse/Colossus.

My examples are to illustrate that certain strategies can be hindered or eliminated through the use of variants, and not the creation of rules. Any game sponsor has the authority to setup a game as envisioned. Some games can be setup to hinder or eliminate a strategy and than some games can be setup to allow the full usage of the strategy. In general, game sponsors are experience players who know what strategies could be used in a sponsored game to a player’s advantage. Variants should be added to discourage these strategies and encourage players to utilize others.

I understand even this idea has the problem of adding “forty” variants to a sponsored game to encourage how it’s played. It's actually not. It’s simply about adding certain variants to games to promote certain strategies. “No Attacking Prior 1000BC” eliminates the early conquest rush. Variants should be added to games to alter how their played. I believe this can be achieved without creating rules on how we play. If a variant isn’t added than the strategy is allowed. Rules should be created if a strategy is being used a majority of the time in any game setting and variants can’t reduce its employment.

[LKendter]

There is another side to bureaucracy that you haven't talked about - shields. If you have a shield heavy capitol (like Epic 6), that 50% production boost can be the difference on snagging more wonders. If going to war, how much is a few more early troops worth.

[Sirian]

The reason I picked 1 AD as a comparison point is that shortly after that date, the other builders who didn't open with the CS slingshot are going to have Bureaucracy too.

How do you conclude this?

[uberfish]

I usually have civil service by 200 AD or so from a peaceful start. It's not a direct beeline but the tech enables too many things to be bypassed.

[Sirian]

I usually have civil service by 200 AD or so from a peaceful start. It's not a direct beeline but the tech enables too many things to be bypassed.

So how does this unfold? Show us a typical example, step by step.

[uberfish]

So how does this unfold? Show us a typical example, step by step.

Happy to - what sort of build would you like me to demonstrate? Pyramids?

[T-hawk]

How do you get a city this big in the begininng? I top out at about 5 (6 if I have a hunting/mining happy). I am thinking of CS slingshot as mystism, meditation, priesthood, writng (and whatever prerequistes you used to get it), CoLs. I don't normally see size 8 cities untile HR, am I overlooking some way to get cities this big?

You're thinking too early. Bureaucracy's power is after you've completed Oracle-CS, not while you're building it. By the time you're done, you've founded Confucianism for +1 happy (it comes with a free missionary to spread it to the capital), you can build a temple for another +1 right away, and you probably do have one or two hunting/mining happy resources. That comes to 8 or 9 total. Finally, HR is indeed part of the equation: Monarchy is only one tech away after the slingshot, so you can research that and zoom your happy cap as high as you need. Or just trade for it since the AIs prioritize it.

[Sullla]

Well, I don't know if we're still talking about this, but I grabbed some screenshots from an earlier, unpublished game to demonstrate how out of control a timely CS slingshot can become. Enjoy.

http://civ4info.com/Sullla/csarticle.html

[Qwack]

Well.. gold in capital, financial civ, popping mysticism. Not all of that happens in every game... I would have gone CS slingshot with that start also. It would be interesting to see someone do a real comparison game. Try 3 things, first path would be CS slingshot with oracle, second path being CS slingshot with prophet, and third being pyramids/great library and compare the results. Capital should have a good mix of hills and grassland, and leader which would be balanced... hmmm Probably someone without Industrious/philosophical/financial traits, or Elizabeth with her Philosphical/financial combo. Maybe this can be a event and then we can compare results to see which one works out best..