[Spoilers] Wang Kon of the Incans, or why I hate building monuments, by Krill

[Krill]

Well, it's true.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Shockingly, the first time we talked about leader/civ selection for the Pitboss a while back, I told Krill we should pick Wang Kon of Inca. I just never thought he would actually listen.

To be fair, though, in the interim, I advocated really strongly to take Khmer, which I now believe is the strongest civ. They get good starting techs (Hunting, Mining) with the mod changes to Hunting, and now it has an allowed UU with a real advantage in the Ballista Elephant. And the Baray is always useful in low food situations.

In the end, once Krill decided to take Inca, I thought Wang Kon was too obvious. I still think FIN is the best trait, despite the nerf. And then you need something to help with the early game. What is better in the early game than cheap granaries, but not just cheap granaries--cheap granaries that provide free monuments. Win! In addition, PRO could prove to be pretty useful. The nubcakes in PBEM16 decided to rush Krill immediately, so having PRO might help prevent that. Also, PRO might allow us to plop down a few of Krill's patented "asshole" plants, cram in a longbow or two, and scream "come at me bro" (WarlordDr patent-pending).

In the end, we also lucked out that no one else took a civ with Mysticism or a leader with IND. This means we start on even footing in any wonder race, depending on resource placement, and we will be almost guaranteed to grab a religion at the start. All told, things worked out very nicely for us. We got the leader and civ we wanted, and the other players starting techs and traits leaves us with plenty of options. Oracle maybe? What would be even more hilarious is if Krill built 'Henge anyway for old times' sake.

Fascinating that India went unselected. I guess the nerf to starting techs and the UU were considered to be substantial. I still probably would've taken them myself if Inca and Khmer were off the board. Since you no longer need to go through Ag to get to AH if you have livestock, I think you can deal much better with bad starting techs. The ability to chop/improve a forest or hill immediately is still very overpowered.

[Krill]

Shockingly, the first time we talked about leader/civ selection for the Pitboss a while back, I told Krill we should pick Wang Kon of Inca. I just never thought he would actually listen.

Eh, on a different map I wouldn't take FIN. Pangea, Highlands, I'd take something very different, likely PRO/IMP, or PRO/EXP. The problem is that this map type throws up a very large amount of coastal tiles, and very few ocean tiles, and you aren't guarranted large amounts of cottageable land.

To be fair, though, in the interim, I advocated really strongly to take Khmer, which I now believe is the strongest civ. They get good starting techs (Hunting, Mining) with the mod changes to Hunting, and now it has an allowed UU with a real advantage in the Ballista Elephant. And the Baray is always useful in low food situations.

See, thing is you start 3 techs away from pottery, so you might end up delaying cottages a while, never mind granaries. I think Khmer are good, but you can defend against BE on defense, and the Baray is just a bit on the weak side. As I always pick civs on UB and then starting techs, the UU is the last thuing I consider, and tbh I wouldn't really care even if I had no UU. I actually considered Persia, but the UB just doesn't do much for me, and is off the beaten track if you want to get it early, even though the UU is uber for its' cost.

In the end, once Krill decided to take Inca, I thought Wang Kon was too obvious. I still think FIN is the best trait, despite the nerf. And then you need something to help with the early game. What is better in the early game than cheap granaries, but not just cheap granaries--cheap granaries that provide free monuments. Win! In addition, PRO could prove to be pretty useful. The nubcakes in PBEM16 decided to rush Krill immediately, so having PRO might help prevent that. Also, PRO might allow us to plop down a few of Krill's patented "asshole" plants, cram in a longbow or two, and scream "come at me bro" (WarlordDr patent-pending).

True, I'm always going to love Inca and I think they are just stronger than India, even in vanilla BtS. If you can MM your workers well (and I do mean better than most people can on this forum) I think you can get away without them. PBEM17 was mainly won on traits IMO: If you get a worker out 2 turns faster, then that is 2 workers turns you can "waste" moving onto forests to chop. Of course, that is when synergy starts to enter the game. But of course, we have that as well.

One point for you to remember last time GES: I was AGG/PRO and I still got rushed. Iwouldn't call it a choke considering how badly they failed though. And craming down a few cities as proper culture pushers is pretty much a given.

In the end, we also lucked out that no one else took a civ with Mysticism or a leader with IND. This means we start on even footing in any wonder race, depending on resource placement, and we will be almost guaranteed to grab a religion at the start. All told, things worked out very nicely for us. We got the leader and civ we wanted, and the other players starting techs and traits leaves us with plenty of options. Oracle maybe? What would be even more hilarious is if Krill built 'Henge anyway for old times' sake.

I am actually quite happy with the fact we are the only civthat starts with Myst. I'm going to seriously consider going Religion first, but religion second iwould be quite likely regardless. Also, Henge makes sense if we need a culture bomb somewhere, or if we have stone, or if I just fancy denial. Yes, we don't need it, but it's still a few turns saved on popping borders, and is a good way to get a GP.

The other option for an easy GP is Oracle. And we are PRO, and we have FIN for quick teching. So, Feudalism is a good target to aim for.

Fascinating that India went unselected. I guess the nerf to starting techs and the UU were considered to be substantial. I still probably would've taken them myself if Inca and Khmer were off the board. Since you no longer need to go through Ag to get to AH if you have livestock, I think you can deal much better with bad starting techs. The ability to chop/improve a forest or hill immediately is still very overpowered.

Eh, I think most of the (civ) choices in this game are a bit "WTF?", but hte leaders are decent choices. Still I'm surprised that 3 people took a nerfed CRE, even if I do feel vindicated at removing cheap libraries.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Eh, I think most of the (civ) choices in this game are a bit "WTF?", but hte leaders are decent choices. Still I'm surprised that 3 people took a nerfed CRE, even if I do feel vindicated at removing cheap libraries.

That might be the best reason to build 'Henge. Then we match the CRE civs in culture output.

[Krill]

That might be the best reason to build 'Henge. Then we match the CRE civs in culture output.

Well, early religion, I'm not build a temple and leaving 1 pop working as a priest for 23 turns. I want one of Henge or Oracle, and Oracle I'm only really interested in either MC or Feud. OTOH, well, TT is the only player that seems to think he'll want Henge so might let it slide a bit, so I think Henge is a possible build.

[Kuro]

Question: What do you think of your opponent's choices?

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Question: What do you think of your opponent's choices?

Krill will have better thoughts on that than me. With the mod changes, I am reluctant to judge anyone before playing. But Krill did point out that three people chose a CRE leader, despite the library nerf.

[Krill]

Question: What do you think of your opponent's choices?

I've actually been thinking quite hard on that tbh. I'm not entirely sure where to start either. I htink I might have to go back to basics in my explanation.

As I see it now, we have 10 traits.

FIN, CRE, PRO, IMP, EXP, CHM, ORG, AGG, PHI, IND, SPI.

They all do different things. They all used to do different things, and I think the changes have had far reaching consequences on picking strategies. I've listed them above in rough grups, and I'll start form the rear.


AGG, PHI, IND, SPI

The last 4 do nothing to help expansion, but give you efficiency savings on various parts of the game, efficiency savings that mean you can get some stuff faster, earlier into the game, but they don't help you grow, the critical X factor that other leaders have. I don't think a combination between these 4 traits is particularly viable without knowing the game type, or map, beforehand. Unless you get an awesome UB/UU and great starting techs, but then, pair them with better traits.

I do think one of these traits is still a good choice, paired with one of the others, to give you options, and to give greater flexibility later on in the game. I'd label these traits late game traits, except that's not fair, AGG is now half decent early on, but you still don't want to build barracks, even half price and as cheap as monuments, when you don't want to build monuments in the first place. And IND, well, we've all seen IND civs throw down Henge in 20 turns, Oracle in 35 for MC, or Pyramids (sometimes you get all three and everyone runs scared), but you leverage the trait into an economic advantage that you don't always get. PHI I'm always going to hold is a mostly wasted trait, the only time I've ever seen it really used properly is with Egypt - getting an Academy a few turns earlier doesn't matter much when you can save gold, and an early shrine can save you hundreds of hammers on religion spreads, but after that, I think it only really helps you in specific situations (need a GA for a bomb, or running SoL/Merc and pushing GP everywhere for multiple GAs once all of hte bars are full). SPI is just awesome, but you need to be in contention, with enough land and up there near hte front with tech for it to put you over the top, and PBEM17 to me just shows how important picking something that helps you in the ealry game is.


CHM, ORG

The next 2 traits, I'm not actually sure about. Now that you can use cheap libs as border pops with ORG, just how viable is that trait? 30 hammers, compared to 20 for a monument, for double the culture which means the time to a border pop is 2 turns less on quick, and 5 less on normal? So even if it takes 5 turns longer to build on normal, it works out identical for getting the fat cross worked. Plus the 2 sci slots, the +25% bpt? And then the additional 3 cheap buildings? See, they generally suck except on hammer poor maps like archi, because you don't actually need them, and on maps such as PBEM17, PB4, and the like with lots of lands, you "over"expand and you don't get to CoL because CH don't help your situation, plowing on and working more cottages is always the answer. Or was, at least. And you dohn't need light houses on mostly land maps, and factories come so late they don't matter, leaving the civic effect, of -50% civic upkeep just a bit meh.

And CHM giving a striaght +2 happy? I really like that, but if you have happy nearby, or can grab a religion, you can survive without it, and you can't really stack whip anger that well anymore. It just seems a bit like a crutch, and you aren't going to be using the happy caps that much...but then again, in PPBREM16 I had a fair few cities butting up at happy caps at size 4, and who knows how usefull an extra 10 pop would have been?

These two are traits whose viability I think is only going to be decided in game. I then to think ORG perhaps needs a buff, but CHM might actually be really powerful if used right. I wouldn't blame anyone for picking either of them, but I don't think they are quite as good as other traits that give early game advantages.


CRE, PRO, IMP, EXP

They're just good traits but late game? Useless, pretty much, so if you pick them use them and you damn well better be controlling the game by t60. I like how CRE lets you play Lazy and takes out one of hte most difficult decisions of hte early game, and obviously it seems other players do as well. PRO? It's not as powerful as people think, unless you can grab happy from somewhere, your generally not that bad off if you just shit at size 4 building stuff with mines. If you aren't growing, granaries aren't that great. EXP? I like the flexibility it gives you if you start coastally, especially if you start with fishing, you can afford to start any other tech because you will be the fastest off hte start line. IMP, well, I'll always have a softspot in my heart for 2 pop settlers, which you can almost get with IMP (just need to get to 13 hammers instead of 32. Big difference).

But if you don't make the advantages stick, you're kinda screwed, because the big dog is still in town:


FIN

How did we nerf FIN again? We made it need 3 commerce on land. So, on maps with lots of coast, it's basically the same. On maps with lots of land, it takes an additional 10 turns to switch on against rivers, and 30 turns otherwise, compared to 0 and 10 turns respectively. TBH, I don't see that as much of a nerf: just start working the cottages earlier. Stop slaving earlier, which is very easy to do when slavery basically sucks for production. I could be wrong. It could be that with less happiness HR becomes more important, but the other options, Caste+workshops requires beaker sinks in MC+CoL and still needs happiness. And Coast is still cheap to work, giving a 50% commerce income that is identical in yield to CS workshops...except it doesn't need feeding. But it's not as good at playing the expansion game as it once was. Beforehand other leaders would have to stop expansion because they'd go on strike, but FIN could afford those few more city sites, and if you run a light military for a few turns longer you'd have overcome the starting advantages of the other traits, or at least part of it.

I still think FIN is overpowered, and I have ideas how a nerf could work, but let's play it out and see what happens. I do hope I'm wrong.

But that's only one way of looking at things. Lets look at them in a different light, those that are mainly helping the start, and those that give a boost that mainly kicks in after t80:


Early expansion: CRE, EXP, IMP, PRO, CHM, AGG(ish)

Late economic: ORG, SPI, AGG, PHI, IND, FIN.

So, to go back to wait I said earlier, you can take a late game trait, but it's a bit risky to take two of them. Out of all of the late game traits, if you can only have one, which one would you take?

Exactly. Not much of a choice, not when you can still use it partly as an expansion trait.


So, that's (my opinion of) the leader traits discussed briefly. The only things that I don't think would work are 6 triat combos, of which only 5 exist (and the sixth doesn't because it's considered "OP" lol). But that is only half the story, as far as picking goes. What about civs?

Really, what about them? The only 3 that I think are worth mentionning of Khmer, India and Inca, the former is good but not as good as PRO LB for holding far flung cities, the middle got nerfed hard by forcing you to tech food techs as needed before doing anything else and the latter isn't great unless you get PRO and happy res, otherwise is just mediocre as you could get away without building granaries. So Civs are generally junk, unless you are going for synergy, probably just best
to get pick the strongest leader possible.

And that is what everyon but me did:


Dazed: Willem of Russia CRE/FIN, Research Lab, Cossack, HUnting/Mining
mh: Sury of Greece CRE/EXP, Odeon, Phalanx, Hunting/Fishing
Krill: Wang Kon of Inca, PRO/FIN, Terrace, Quechua, Agri/Myst
TT: Boudicca of Germany, CHM/AGG, Assembly Line, Kanone, Hunting/Mining
yuris: Gilgamesh of China, CRE/PRO, Pavilion, Chokonu, Agri/Mining

At first glance makes you think we (read I) screwed up the trait rebalancing. Could be right. Could be that everyone acknoledges just how important it is to have an early game trait to keep up in expansion. or maybe they didn't realise just how hard CRE got nerfed? Whatever.

I think with 3/5 combos being CRE, this is going to be a rerun of PB1, but as more people pick CRE it gets weaker because border wars are more likely to get fought. So Dazed picked wisely, then mh picked a good eary leader, and I went with the Inca. The two choices after that are the ones that puzzle me. Boudicca being a little slow but getting 2 good techs, and hey, the happiness can be amazing. Gilgamesh is amazing fast, but still has to pay top dollar for his settlers and workers, so needs a high happy map. I can't see both of TT and Yuris having an amazing game. Out of the civs, I wonder a bit about mhs' Greece, I'd have taken Persia myself, but then there is that EXP/Fishing start and he could have taken Vikings, maybe? Most of the civs that start with Fishing area bit meh, but then again, so are most of them. China I think lose out a bit now that Hunting is a solid tech, otoh, I do not want to get into a border war with that civ/leader combo. TT and Germany is just weird, I'll chalk that up as a TT-ism, and Dazed taking Russia, well, whatever floats your boat.

I'm just happy about Myst.

[Kuro]

Hmmm...your thoughts on traits definately differ based on mine! For example, I thought Financial was weakened a good deal myself, even though it is unchanged by coast. And I thought Creative's nerf was basically non-existant: No half priced Libraries sucks, but +2 culture per turn is the real reason to take it period. I also don't like Imperialistic much, but that's inexperience talking I feel based on how you discuss it here. I also thought Aggressive was better than you thought.

I was also surprised nobody chose Washington: He gets +2 happiness/health in all cities, plus the Worker boost!

...Eh, might be talking too much for a non-dedlurker now. =X Sowwy.

[Krill]

Walls of text, baby.

FWIW, I almost took CRE before the first 2 leaders went down. I was considering ORG before I took Inca, and I would have loved to take IMP or EXP instead of PRO, which was only taken because of Inca. I think that the balance of the new traits works, but, and it's a fairly important but, you still need a way to pop borders that don't waste 20 hammers/city. This is most glaring issue that this pick has highlighted to me.