[SPOILERS] Dazedroyalty - Move along! Nothing to see here

[scooter]

Any idea if Xenu is going to fund you? And wait, Sian has TGLighthouse, Colossus, and Great Library? Wow. I never thought I'd say Roosevelt was overpowered in a PBEM, but this map was made for him.

Though if Sian is looking to go with Knights against a guy with the units to handle them... That sounds like a gift for you guys.

[dazedroyalty]

This game is a mess. We really should have dogpiled Sian when Xenu suggested it 40 turns ago. But, at the time, I wasn't really convinced that Xian was that much of a threat. Turns out, though, it woulda been a good idea. I chatted with Krill and the only hope for this game is that Sian-Slowcheetah really do go to war and waste a lot on each other. If either one of them decides to redirect to me, i'm screwed. Krill suggested I can either try to whip out a HUGE outdated army and lay some hurt on someone or desperately try for an economic recovery and hope no one attacks me--either one is a long shot though.

I don't think Xenu is interested in funding the project. I probably even shouldn't have proposed the idea. It makes it look like I'm asking him to fund my tech for free. Which, admittedly, I did like. But I really was thinking that having galleons to fork cities would be the key way to bring Sian down. he can't defend all his fronts. Therefore, I could tech while Xenu built an army of maces. Then I'd whip the Galleons and gift them to him. I told him at the very beginning it's unlikely to work simply because it would require us to essentially work together like a team. But i threw it out anyways. I don't think the "build units and attack straight on" approach would work.

I'm thinking about sending an email to Xenu/Bodly and Slowcheetah just to say, "Let me put all my cards on the table. Either of you could attack me if you wanted, but that won't win the game. For ANY of us to have a chance, we have to work together against Sian." if we can't slow him down, the game is over really.

[dazedroyalty]

To clarify, the mess is just the diplomacy. Xenu/Boldly are suspicious of me, I think. I pushed hard to get them not to settle on my borders but took a big diplo hit for it. Slowcheetah is relatively unavailable so I'm not sure what to think. He tells me he's gonna attack Sian but if he's smart, he wouldn't. given how cautious he is, I don't see him attacking the guy with longbows. Catwalk would have but he's not playing and barely involved in the game at all now. Sian has knights and I signed a NAP with him that Krill has, appropriately, kicked my butt for. I was trying to deter knights from coming into my borders while economically recovering. Anything could happen.

[scooter]

Crazy diplo. I'm glad I'm not in any diplo games. This misspelling of Sian's name:

I wasn't really convinced that Xian was that much of a threat.

was particularly funny to me for some reason . All that talk of "Xenu" and the X is apparently contagious. Plus the idea of the Chinese city of Xian becoming a threat made me laugh as I got visions of the terracotta soldiers coming to life and invading you. Perhaps that just means I need more sleep.

[dazedroyalty]

Just sent this:

Slowcheetah, Boldly and Xenu (Hail Ronald Reagan!),

I am writing so that the three of us can discuss the "Sian Situation." In order to facilitate this conversation, I'm prepared to put all my cards on the table. I am also trusting you not to forward this to Sian, but that is ultimately your choice. I spent a while chatting with Krill yesterday (somethign I don't actually do often--at least, not about this game. I'd say Krill looks at 1 out of every 15-20 turns. He answers my specific questions when I ask but that's it) and have come to some conclusions based on his advice and the current diplomatic/tech situation in game. First, some history:

When I took over for Kuro, things were bad. He essentially had three cities with 2 workers and few helpful techs. I'm not interested in disparaging Kuro but it was a significant shortcoming given Civ's snowball effect--for details about this effect, see... just about every game ever! :P The only plan I could imagine to make up for it was to leverage IMP to a crazy land grab (see my city count vs yours). However, I have almost no experience with that type of gameplay and Krill's occasional advice wasn't enough to compensate for the situation I was in. Resulting in the fact that I'm far behind despite my score. Slowcheetah should be able to confirm this since he has completed Alphabet.

Xenu had previously advocated for a dogpile against Sian and I declined (see plan above). The truth is that if I had realized the threat he was at the time, I would have been all for it. I simply underestimated the fact that IND/ORG is very powerful on this map, not to mention having early courthouses! For that, I will own up to having poor long term vision.

At this point, though, Krill and I agree that unless something happens to significantly slow down Sian, he will win. He has GLH, GL AND Colossus, plus the highest GNP and strong production. Any wars between the three of us will only assist him. I'll be blunt and say you can fight me and probably win at things stand now--though I have enough skills to make it very painful. Or Xenu/Boldly could fight Slowcheetah. The point is, anything between the three of us isn't going to be enough to slow Sian down. Personally, i'm not interested in playing for second place. Therefore, for any of us to have a chance, Sian needs to be taken down a notch (yes, this is Xenu's same argument from before). I also realize that it may seem hypocritical to agree now but not 40 turns ago. See above explanation then either decide it's self serving and we can hand the game to Sian while fighting between ourselves OR let's agree that he needs to be stop and figure out how to play from here out.

This email is my effort to make this game worth the continued effort of playing. Coming in 2nd or 4th makes no difference to me. So, let's either decide that we're all interested in trying for 1st or decide that we aren't and at least I know that I don't need to make a serious effort.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts,

Dazed

P.S. If you're wondering why this sudden focus from me, it's mostly as a result of getting my butt kicked by Krill and him giving me his stark opinions on what will happen in game if things continue down the current trajectory.

[dazedroyalty]

I dont really have time for a full update. Diplo would take at least an hour to recap plus what's actually going in game. So instead, I'll just comment on the situation that annoys me at the moment.



A few turns ago Xenu was pushing me really hard to close borders with Sian. Meanwhile, I was pushing him hard NOT to settle on those gems, but 1W on the rice.

We had a couple of long discussions over chat. I was very strongly suggesting that I'd use force to prevent him from settling on the gems. He considered it his right to settle there for "future defense" against me. He suggested at one point that we agree to never attack each other and then he'd settle on the rice. At first I turned him down but really didn't want to go to war over it. So, in our most recent discussion when he pushed me AGAIN for closing borders with Sian, I said I would if he settled on the rice. He agreed so long as we also agreed to not attack each other from those cities:

pacetyrantxenu: you'rea asking me to settle on the rice, which i could only do if i would never have to face an attack from you from that side.

me: if you settle the rice and give OB, I promise not to attack you out of Function

spacetyrantxenu: if you agree to a non-invasion agreement from the globe city side, we have no reason to defend vs you and can settle the rice toward slowwalk
8:01 PM
that sounds promising. if we can go into lawyer mode can we make this ironclad and put this behind us? you won't build a bunch of units in your adjacent cities and then run them straight into whatever i name the rice city from the two tiles to its east (i think it's a hill and grass?)

me: basically, nothing passes between the mountains

spacetyrantxenu: right. the grass and the hill 1E of the gems
8:04 PM
me: if we wanted to attack each other, it'd have to be north or south of mountains

spacetyrantxenu: correct. that way no one can be 1 moved, and i can defend on a hill before my city (pigs)
8:05 PM
me: ok

spacetyrantxenu: ok, if we're agreed on that, i will tell boldly about this provision, and if he doesn't object we'll consider this signed.

i need him to agree though so he doesn't violate another deal, knowingly or otherwise.
8:06 PM
me: can't you just tell him?

spacetyrantxenu: lol

you don't have a twin do you?

me: no.
8:07 PM
spacetyrantxenu: when we tell each other what to do, it usually ends in a fight. better to come to an agreement than dictate terms. (unrelated, but here's some insight: we both played tennis in high school, played doubles. but we couldn't play together because we'd fight too much)

me: but if he doesn't agree, then we're back at square 0

?
8:08 PM
spacetyrantxenu: that's a good question....i'll tell him my name is on the thread and try to veto an objection. and if he breaks the agreement i'll let you burn the city when i get the save back. if you don't mind building me a cheap IMP settler i'll buy it off you.
8:09 PM
that would suck though because it would prevent us from reestablishing trade

basically if he objects i'll just have to put him in the brig, i don't know.

So if you read these chats, it is possible to interpret that we never actually agreed. Xenu says he has to check with Boldly but then basically says that he'll "veto" and that if Boldly objects, he'll "put him in the brig."

At this point, there is two possible interpretations. 1) WAY TO GO XENU! You successfully misled me through some excellent use of good cop/bad cop. Technicalities to the max! By never following up and confirming Boldly was on board, all deals are therefore off. Even better, you got what you wanted: I closed borders with Sian AND you got the city site you wanted. The fact that you've done this "I'll check with Boldly" act before (to me multiple times and Slowcheetah at least once) just proves that you're great at it pulling the wool over other people's eyes. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

2) Poor form. You negotiated in good faith and I responded in good faith. Then you proceeded to decide you wanted to have your cake and eat it too. You didn't have the sportmanship to even say, "hey, we reconsidered and decided that deal is no good." We're supposed to be working together to take down the game leaders (Sian and then Slowcheetah) but you prefer to stick it to me despite that you had a deal that guaranteed you MORE safety than what you're getting now (I can still double move you and keep all my double movers out of your line of vision). You gained almost nothing but managed to prove your diplomacy skills are untrustworthy.

I understand perspective #1. In fact, it's fine if a player wants to be that way. But Xenu has CONSISTENTLY throughout this game talked about playing with honor and in such a way to have a good reputation. If he just said, "we changed our mind" I'd have been annoyed and frustrated in game but not upset. The reason I'm upset is that he has started trying to play both sides. He told me in a chat he doesn't enjoy diplo, but he doesn't seem to have a problem taking advantage of it.

My first response to Boldly/Xenu after seeing the save:

Hail Ronald Reagan, Hey guys, I am not gonna get pissy about it becuase I think working together against Sian is more important, but I'm not so thrilled to see that you ignored our agreement (which Xenu even reminded me of) that if I closed borders with Sian and agreed not attack your city from Function, you would settle on the rice. Honestly, I think that's really bad form of you. Dazed

The reference to being reminded was that Xenu didn't OB with me which I was curious about. TBH, I'd forgotten about the "deal" we'd made. So he reminded me:

me: since you didn't open borders i'm presuming Boldly didn't agree with the deal?
9:36 AM
spacetyrantxenu: i played quickly before work this morning, i didn't remember to check to see if you had closed borders with sian
9:37 AM
me: The deal was in regards to founding that city and signing a mutual-non attack deal
9:38 AM
spacetyrantxenu: yes, but the whole reason i entered into negotiations was (i thought?) upon the basis that you would close borders with sian and open with me instead. is that not the case?
9:39 AM
me: sigh. if you go back and read the chat log you'll see that I did not at any point suggest closing borders with Sian (except mentioning that if you and slowcheetah settled more cities that it might be the same for me)
9:42 AM
spacetyrantxenu: this is where i got that idea.

me: what can i do to get you to close borders with sian and open with me instead?
short of paying money out of my own pocket.

Dazedroyalty: you can not settle that hill and spread your religion in Function
and get slowcheetah to close the same turn

you didn't suggest it but i did.

EDIT: For clarity sake, after he reminded me of the deal, I said "OK" and agreed that we had made that arrangement and then proceeded to close borders with Sian the next turn.

I didn't get a response but caught Xenu on chat--bad idea. I was really upset in the moment and let him have it a bit. (Xenu--sorry about that!) Basically, I just said that I felt like his diplomacy was really untrustworthy and he said he doesn't enjoy diplo. I think we were both upset probably.

So I followed up:

Xenu,

I wanted to follow up to our chat. First, let me say that I don't have any problems outside of this game. It's been fun getting to know you through the game and in game stuff never bothers me out of game. Second, I'm sorry to hear that you're not enjoying this game. To be honest, I've commented multiple times in my thread that this is the last diplo game I'll play. Meta game stuff is inevitable in a diplo game in my perspective. I learned the hard way in my previous PBEMs what happens if I don't play it (fiery death) so it becomes a "do or die" type thing. I think that's why the trend is now to AI-diplo, no diplo or AW games.

All that aside, I hope you can see how frustrating it is for you to repeatedly use the "I'll check with Boldly" line (you've done with me three times) and then decide opposite what we discussed and not inform me. I also know (because you told me) that you essentially did the same thing to Slowcheetah regarding the gems city. From a diplomatic perspective, that's just really frustrating. I get that you want to be on the same page, but to me it seems a lot more like you're playing "good cop, bad cop" where you agree to stuff but then Boldly disagrees and you benefit from 1-2 turns, if not more, taking place before the other party finds out.

I reaffirm, again, that i think working together is the best plan to stop Sian and then Slowcheetah after so you've won this time because it's a lose-lose scenario to do anything about your decision to settle the gems. However, in the future when we are negotiating from now on, I do plan to simply hold the turn until you've had time to chat/discuss with Boldly and get back to me before I play. Otherwise, I risk every deal we discuss being rejected after I've played turns based on a deal you imply will happen but doesn't!

Back to RL I'm sorry to hear about your IT audit this week. I hope it goes well! Thanks,

Dazed

I'll admit that I have been annoyed by Xenu's two faced diplomatic tactic. However, I can't fault him because I see how he's justifying it even though I totally disagree. I don't hold any personal grudge against him. I've actually quite enjoyed getting to know him as I mentioned in the email. I want to be clear that my in game frustration doesn't go beyond the game. That said, for the purpose of this game, I 100% meant that I won't continue playing the game until they have clearly stated agreement. I feel foolish for not pushing for that sooner on this settling deal. I can only say that I really thought it was agreed. In the 3v1 dogpile on Sian, I've been pushing hard to get them to commit because I don't trust Xenu till he's definitively said he's in. Boldly has said they are in twice to me in chat. It'll be interesting to see if Xenu decides to use "veto" on Boldly regarding the 3v1.

Slowcheetah seems to want confirmation too. he sent this earlier:

Just writing to confirm that you guys are all in with the alliance against Sian?
Including the NAP until 5 turns after the 'war' is over.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to properly define the word war.
Should we keep it harsh and say the war only ends when all three of us have peace with Sian (or he is dead)?

I've said I'm in twice if Xenu/Boldly are in. I want to give Xenu grace because he told me that communicating with a twin (Boldly is his twin bro) isn't always easy. That said, they have to figure out how to respond in timely manner somehow.

[dazedroyalty]

Yes, I did start that last post with "I don't really have time" and then posted a long post anyways.... I'll call that my therapeutic post. I got it out of my system and now it's behind me. Moving forward!

[scooter]

Yeah I'd be pretty annoyed too. Unfortunately he has the leverage here - he can kinda do what he wants because if you do try to punish him for it, that's just helping Sian all the more. Not a fun situation to be in.

[dazedroyalty]

My plan: get everyone into a 3v1 against Sian. If we're all in it, we have NAPs until the war is over. I will do what I have to contribute but not go overboard. I just want Sian slowed down. Honestly, if Sian attacks Slowcheetah before T125 I can't join in becuase of my NAP with Sian. So, if he goes to war with Slowcheetah and they kill each other awhile, that's fine with me. I just need to defend against Xenu.

My odds of winning are not high but I just can't quite go for "I'm unlikely to win so I should settle for playing king maker." Krill has mentioned that possibility to me in chats we've had. I could easily tech Construction and HBR then just whip my cities to the ground and get a huge army of HAs and Cats. They'd be outdated slightly but I could cripple someone good. But that would be basically be like a big "F you" with my dying breath.

[dazedroyalty]

Tech goals:

1) Civil Service for Bureaucracy
2) Construction for siege
3) Printing Press for economy boost (I think I have more matured cottages than anyone else in game)

Printing Press includes the need to tech Alphabet, Paper and Machinery. Machinery will unlock macemen which is good. Paper and Alphabet won't really help directly but are necessary.

i'm sitting on a Great Scientist that I'm gonna use to launch a GA. Krill suggested maxing out whatever is necessary to get 2 more GP during the GA while in Pacifism. I think that's a good plan. One thing I am not sure if he remembered is that I'm spiritual so I don't NEED to switch civics on the last turn of the GA. I can stay in Pacifism a little while longer and then just switch when I'm ready. Practically, I still want to generate most of my GPP during the boosted golden age, but I don't have to massively starve to get the last little bit out if I don't want to.

I've finished quite a few courthouses and will be able to whip the Forbidden Palace in two turns. I hate whipping at the wonder penalty but the economic benefit should be MORE than worth the couple of pop points. I've also built a fair number of forges but without Organized Religion I'm still quite behind in production. But it's improving. I'm still the leader in food by alot. Last turn I noticed that Xenu whipped down a LOT because his food graph dropped precipitously. I hope whatever he whipped was really urgent.

My military is really skimpy and I need to work on that because Slowcheetah is now pushing for war before T125 which I can't do because of the NAP I have with Sian. If the whole war effort collapses I will become target number one I think. Hence making Construction a key tech. Fortunately, Sian can't attack me so I really hope he does at Slowcheetah but he may go at Xenu instead. Wild world out there.