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[SPOILERS] Leader & Civ Selection Thread

Civs with 2 of Agri/Mining/Wheel/Hunting:
China (Agriculture/Mining)

French (Agriculture/Wheel)
Sumeria (Agriculture/Wheel)
Babylon (Agriculture/Wheel)
Egypt (Agriculture/Wheel)
Ottoman (Agriculture/Wheel)

Mali (Mining/Wheel)

Persia (Agriculture/Hunting)
Zulu (Agriculture/Hunting)

Germany (Mining/Hunting)
Russia (Mining/Hunting)
Khmer (Mining/Hunting)
Ethiopia (Mining/Hunting)

Mongol (Wheel/Hunting)
Of these, I like: Khmer, Egypt, Sumeria, Mali, Persia, roughly in that order.
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Zulu are actually Agriculture/Hunting.
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I think zulu migh be a good option.I know expensiv barack its not that apealing,but impis are great defensiv units.
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shadyforce Wrote:Civs with 2 of Agri/Mining/Wheel/Hunting:
China (Agriculture/Mining)

French (Agriculture/Wheel)
Sumeria (Agriculture/Wheel)
Babylon (Agriculture/Wheel)
Egypt (Agriculture/Wheel)
Ottoman (Agriculture/Wheel)

Mali (Mining/Wheel)

Persia (Agriculture/Hunting)

Germany (Mining/Hunting)
Russia (Mining/Hunting)
Zulu (Mining/Hunting)
Khmer (Mining/Hunting)
Ethiopia (Mining/Hunting)

Mongol (Wheel/Hunting)
Of these, I like: Khmer, Egypt, Sumeria, Mali, Persia, roughly in that order.

I am very torn between the Khemer and Egypt here. I think my top 5 are: 1a. Khemer 1b. Egypt. 3. Mali. 4. Zulu 5. Sumeria
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.

1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.

2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.

3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.

4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
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mackoti Wrote:I think zulu migh be a good option.I know expensiv barack its not that apealing,but impis are great defensiv units.

Zulu could also help with maintenance.

Would the Mali be any good? Mint + defensive unit?
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Been thinking about this. I suspect that we will be given an above-average amount of breathing room. As was stated earlier, demogames tend to be aimed towards longer games, so a cramped map makes very little sense. To me that removes the desire for Impis and lessens it for War Chariots, because they will likely be outdated by the time we have serious contact. Also, with diplomacy on the idea of early rushes will be really rare, and the democracy aspect will also tone down aggressive play (aggressive early play in NTT either comes from inexperience or impulsiveness usually), so I think early UUs in general will have extremely minimal value. As a result, I believe picking a civ based on a pre-Construction UU is a mistake (I view Khmer as being about as early as is worth going for). If you want to make a case for a civ with an early UU based on their UB that's another matter entirely, but there aren't many powerful UBs.

So I'd like to throw out France as an "alternative" choice that hasn't really been mentioned. Draftable 2-movers is just super fun and dangerous. It's also a nice deterrent in the mid-game. If we can leverage Pacal and good techs to be leading in the mid-game, nobody will be in a rush to knock us down a peg if we've got Musketeers on defense, and of course there's the flexibility to bash heads. That would basically mean we'd be safe until the age of Rifles and beyond, which is quite a ways away. I also think the Musketeer has not gotten a fair showcase in a standard game here because of the emphasis on early game UUs. It's Agriculture/Wheel which is just fine as it gives us the choice between Pottery and Hunting out of the gate. I think a couple of you voted Pacal because we felt we had to (and I think we did), but if we're looking for a little bit of spice, I think France would be a creative and strong choice.
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I would realy like Balista if we can get it,its perfect defence againt bizantium if someone fancy that,but i can bet will be already picked.

I was thinking more about Summeria.Why?

1.we can delay for some time Col and still having acces to courthose wich are cheaper then other couthoses, very important for a leader which is not organizat.
2. very good starting techs.

3.Starting faster espionage will put presure on others.
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mackoti Wrote:I would realy like Balista if we can get it,its perfect defence againt bizantium if someone fancy that,but i can bet will be already picked.

I do want to comment on this and get a bit metagamey for a second. There's only going to be 2 civs picked before we're back up again with menagerie and TEAM to pick their combos and then we get any civ we want from that list. What is likely to be taken? Well for one, Willem is still available, so I'm still betting on the Willem/Maya combo being taken by one of the two remaining teams. I think that's most likely to go off the board as it's very strong and easy to get in 5 player snake. That leaves just one civ to be taken in front of us, which all of those civs we've been discussing + Byz still available. With so many options available, I agree that Khmer might be taken (Sury of Khmer oddly enough is a very plausible choice), but with so many options the odds are still not amazing. I'd say we have a greater than 50% chance of having Khmer available to us if we so desired. Anyways, back to this:

mackoti Wrote:I was thinking more about Summeria.Why?

1.we can delay for some time Col and still having acces to courthose wich are cheaper then other couthoses, very important for a leader which is not organizat.
2. very good starting techs.

3.Starting faster espionage will put presure on others.

If we choose based on UB, I think Sumeria has by far the most useful UB for our purposes on Prince/Toroidal with no Organized. So my current 3 favorites in no particular order:

France - Good UU in a period where military will be most useful IMO
Sumeria - Good UB on a map that places higher priority on this building
Khmer - Good UU and a decent UB.

They all have good starting techs (Agri/Wheel for France&Sumeria, Hunting/Mining for Khmer), so I didn't factor that in.
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My preferences:

1. France. France!!! Doesn't get enough love, draftable 2-movers are awesome
2. If we're looking for a strong UB, and I think Seven mentioned that a strong UB is at least as important as UU, I would consider Ottomans
3. Sumeria also has a good UB, and UU has its benefits
4. Egypt. Just for the UU
5. Zulu. Again, nice early UU, and a maintenance-reducing UB

I'm not sold on Khmer at all. Concentrating too much on the threat of Cataphracts (which may not be in the game) is dangerous, and I don't see other benefits of Khmers
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Cool, Pacal. I think we are worrying too much about starting techs now. There are some very strong civs still out there. Of those mentioned already I like Sumeria and Khmer, but there are also:

Vikings (strong UB and strong UU too, and starting techs are good for this start)
HRE (strong UB and has hunting)
Aztecs (same)
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