[SPOILERS] scooter, pindicator, and Huayna Capac try some fast Zulu cuisine

[Qgqqqqq]

Why is pigs<wet wheat? Commerce, or do you start with agriculture?

[Cyneheard]

Why is pigs<wet wheat? Commerce, or do you start with agriculture?

It's not a big deal as Krillmod Zulu: Hunting enables pastures, so we save a worker turn. And the old wheat wasn't on a river. So I think we're better off.

[scooter]

I was thinking two different things when I wrote that anyways. So yes, the pig is great for us in the mod.

[scooter]

After looking at some of these sim attempts, I'm more and more hoping we can find an excuse to more further inland. This start is just much less messy if we can delay Fishing for a bit.

[NobleHelium]

I wanted the hammer from the wheat to help build work boats. That's the difference for me.

Yeah the opening is definitely messy with this many forests and being so far from BW and still needing Fishing at some point. You never get this many forests in a normal RB map.

[Cyneheard]

I wanted the hammer from the wheat to help build work boats. That's the difference for me.

Yeah the opening is definitely messy with this many forests and being so far from BW and still needing Fishing at some point. You never get this many forests in a normal RB map.

K1 didn't have a PHF, so it would've been slower on WB, not faster.

[scooter]

Ok! We obviously have a couple days before this thing gets going, so I'm going to take a stab at a basic opponent preview. With 10 opponents, I'm not going to go really in-depth here. More like I'd like to rank the best-worst combos and try to identify who our greatest threats are. I'll rank ours on that list too.

First off, little secret about Krillmod: the traits don't actually matter that much. All the best stuff has been nerfed pretty noticeably, and the worst stuff has been boosted pretty significantly (Protective getting granaries is a massive boost). That means that while there are definitely some traits that are a bit better than others (lookin at you, Spiritual), the difference between them is much smaller than your brain naturally tells you. To be truthful, whoever has the nicest expansion prospects will have a MUCH bigger advantage than the team that has the best civ/leader. Finally, civ quality is a bigger deal here than you'd normally expect. The leaders are all tempered a bit, so the civ impact is magnified since so few of the civs were nerfed. Anyways, here's my stab at rankings. This is ignoring player skill btw, I'll get to that after I go through the civs.


1) Nakor, Tatan - Mansa Musa (Fin/Spi) of India (Myst/Wheel)

See here's the thing about this. Mansa Musa is usually awesome because FIN is awesome, and SPI is just a sweet bonus. It's really the opposite here. SPI is awesome in Krillmod because 1) it was the best trait that was not nerfed and 2) It was boosted by the greatly increased amount of viable civic choices. So yes, SPI is awesome. FIN is fine too. It's a terrible trait if you turn tech trading on, but it's pretty good here. Losing the bonus on rivers really sucks, but gaining the Bank bonus helps offset that some. The fast worker is nerfed a bit (2 movement + mobility), but it's still a great UU. The techs are pretty crappy, but that's the only hole in this combo.

2) Azza - Napoleon (Org/Chm) of Rome (Fishing/Mining)

I suspect I'll get raised eyebrows for this one, but I believe it. I believe ORG is one of the best traits in Krillmod, and it's extremely good on Big & Small. The civic reduction bonus is at least half-FIN in terms of economic impact all by itself, and the other bonuses easily make up the difference. Cheap lighthouses? You're going to build a metric ton of those here. Cheap libraries? That's awesome. Cheap courthouses? Always good, and it also gives you a leg up in the espionage game since espionage is balanced and therefore allowed in Krillmod. I like ORG better than FIN in Krillmod, easily. Then there's Chm. You get +2 happiness instead of +1 and another +1 with Monuments, and that's a pretty big deal. That lets you go vertical very early like Krill did in PB5, and this mod does like you to go vertical and work more tiles. Rome is of course good - the Praets are nerfed a bit, but they're still one of the better UUs here, so long as you don't fall into the trap of feeling like you have to rush with them just because you have them. Finally, Fishing/Mining is excellent starting techs on Big & Small. It tends to shoot out a lot of starts that are high in forests and/or high in seafood, so Fishing/Mining is a very flexible starting set for this map.

3) scooter, pindicator, friends - Huayna Capac (Fin/IND) of Zulu (Agriculture/Hunting)

Believe it or not, I put us this high more because of our civ than our leader. Zulu is an excellent civ in Krillmod. You no longer have the penalty of starting with a scout (in that everyone else does too so it's not a penalty), you have an insanely versatile UU, you have very good starting techs (Hunting is a much better tech than in vanilla), and you have a pretty decent UB that now gives you culture for building it. Aggressive would've been a better trait here actually - 30h for 1culture, -20% maintenance, and the usual XP is a pretty sweet deal. It'll still be a situationally useful building, so it's alright. The traits are solid, though not as overwhelmingly awesome as you think at first glance. IND is severely weakened by having FOUR opponents with IND in this game. The forge bonus is still significant though, so it's not a useless trait. Also, don't underestimate the value of the wonder bonus applying to national wonders too. It's so much harder to build stuff like Moai in the mod with the slavery nerf, so IND is a nice boost for that. FIN is what it is - a solid trait, but it's definitely not king anymore. The intangible nerf you get with FIN is that expansion is just more important in Krillmod, because land is more valuable. This is the huge drawback that keeps us from being #2 - we have two of the worst traits for fast early expansion, so we'll have to make up for it in other ways. Almost every other player has something to give him an expansion edge over us, so we'll have to work hard to keep pace in the early stages. If we can do that, we'll be sitting pretty nicely for the longer game.

4) Commodore - Gilgamesh (Cre/Pro) of the Khmer (Hunting/Mining)

Heh, when the leaders were first rolled, Commodore message'd me and congratulated us on winning the game and said he got one of the worst combos. In his defense he was thinking the Ballistaphants are str7 like War Elephants now are (it's not, it's str8 and retains its other bonuses), so once I corrected him on that he seemed to be happy about that. Still though, he's got nothing that it particularly outstanding (besides his UU), but he doesn't have anything particularly terrible either. Protective is pretty average, but that's better than you instinctively tend to think. The addition of cheap granaries is a really big deal. Think to vanilla civ - Expansive is generally considered to be the 1B to Financial's 1A. The worker thing is nice and all, but probably 80% of the reason Expansive is awesome is the cheap granaries. Not only do you need one in every city, but it accelerates your growth curve in every city. So PRO is, in theory, roughly 80% as good as Expansive is in Vanilla. Given the fact that vanilla Expansive is much better than any trait in Krillmod... Uh, surely PRO is pretty good then, right? Can you name 5 traits that are better than it? I don't think you can. CRE is just OK. The culture thing is still there, but culture is a little easier to come by now (Barracks giving culture), and the library bonus is gone. I overvalued this trait in my PB5 pregame analysis, FWIW. Despite the fact that CRE is just so-so here, this is still almost as close as you can get to vanilla Suryavarman, so that's worth something. It's good expansion traits in a game where expansion will be a big deal. The Khmer UU is possibly the best UU represented in this game, certainly the best military UU anyways (probably fast worker is still preferable). The Khmer UB isn't very good, but most UBs aren't very good. The starting techs are also excellent, so Commodore should have a very fast start. If Commodore plays his traits, he should be fine. If he continues assuming his leader is terrible and just goes on a killing spree a la PB5, then he won't have much of a chance. I think he'll do better here.

(it's slightly possible I'm overranking him by a couple spots just because I thought his complaint was lame :P)

5) Ichabod and the Brick - Genghis Khan (Agg/Imp) of the Vikings (Fishing/Hunting)

This combination is really, really growing on me. As I think about it, I wonder if this and Commodore's should switch places. Aggressive Vikings is awesome on Big & Small. The only way these guys are screwed is if they unluckily roll one of the inland starts. B&S with 11 players tends to put at least 9 of them on the coast, so that would be pretty unlucky. They also have a key advantage in the race for circumnav (and we do NOT want them winning that race)... However, B&S often makes it impossible for you to circumnav pre-Optics. It does it sometimes, but more often than not, circumnav is a tech race to Optics rather than a race you start by pushing our some early boats. IMP is just OK, but the Custom House boost is kinda nice on a map where trade routes are a really big deal. IMP also shoots out settlers even faster than on Vanilla (60% instead of 50%), so that's a nice boost on a mod where expansion drags a bit more than usual. Their starting techs are excellent, their UU is excellent on this map, and their UB is probably the best UB in this game. If they play aggressively, they should have a really fun game. Let's also hope this chat I received was a false prophecy:

Brick: i'm gonna come find you
and kiiiiiiiiiiiiiill youuuuuuuuuuu
with your precious 'zerks....

6) Lewwyn + Bigger - Qin Shi Huang (Ind/Pro) of the Netherlands (Fishing/Agri)

PRO uber alles. The civ here is a big deal if they can make it to the late-game. This game will be a test to see if Lewwyn can overcome his natural impulse to kill and play a builder game. That way he can get into the modern age where the Dutch will be awesome. If he can make it to the late-game with Lewwyn'ing somebody, he'll be in good shape. Good starting techs and cheap granaries will mean he should be quick out of the gate. Should be noted that I'm valuing Fishing as good across the board since nearly all of us will have seafood starts, and many will opt for WB first starts... Much like Commodore, this main conflict will be Lewwyn vs Lewwyn.

7) Catcheetah - Suryavarman (Exp/Cre) of France (Agriculture/Wheel)

I thought about swapping this with Lewwyn. I probably should, actually. EXP lost the crucial granary bonus, but it gained a WB bonus. On a no water map, EXP is a pretty lousy trait now. However, on Big & Small the WB bonus in addition to the slightly buffed worker bonus is still pretty good. It also gets cheap grocers which is new. It gets cheap harbors which is not new, but it's more valuable on this map than on a typical map. The musketeer is, as always, really awesome. The starting techs are fine too. CRE is the weak point here, but yes, this should be higher on my list. If you want to mentally bump this up 1-2 spots, I'm totally fine with that. I'm skeptical of EXP without the granaries, but Big & Small is tailor-made for all the other bonuses EXP gets, so that helps. Actually I'm thinking too much of my Viking start from PB5 where literally every single city except Brick's original capital was coastal for me. That was not the norm for most people. So if you get a spot that is on the coast and using seafood frequently, this combo bumps up a few spots. If you have something similar to Krill's PB5 start, this isn't such a great combo.

8) Xenu - Churchill (Chm/Pro) of Portugal (Fishing/Mining)

Not as bad as it looks. PRO is PRO, granaries are cool yo. CHM is another fine but not powerful trait. Sure it's not top-tier, but is FIN really that much better than it? That gap is wayyyy closer than it was in vanilla, anyways. Portugal is a great civ here. Those starting techs are again excellent too. What's not to like? There is nothing really strong anywhere on this, but nothing real terrible either. I keep writing people down and thinking "man, I could bump that up a bit" which I think shows how surprisingly well-balanced these leaders are. Yes this is #8 and ours is #3, but in the opening turns, we'll have a few extra commerce from water/cottages, and he'll have fast granaries and +2 happiness on us. Advantage Xenu, in the short-term anyways.

The final tier is all some pretty weak stuff:

9) Plako - Louis XIV (Cre/Ind) of the Aztec (Myst/Hunting)

It was really hard deciding between this and Serdoa for #9. In the end I gave this the nod because the Sacrificial Altar is a bit more useful on Krillmod since it let's you string together more frequent 1-pop whips and avoid the nerfed 2-pop whips. I guess that's good? CRE vs CHM is a tough call and sort of a wash, neither are inspiring. Starting techs are OK only because Hunting is pretty good, but Mysticism is, of course, terrible.

10) Serdoa - De Gaulle (Ind/Chm) of Maya (Myst/Mining)

Giving him the edge over Merovech because the Mayans is a decent civ at least. Traits have both been discussed above in detail, not great, but he can make them work. Serdoa is excellent at builder/wonder micro type things, so I think he can stretch IND better than most of the other IND players. Ball Courts are kind of nice, but feel like they won't be necessary with Chm and the ability to trade for luxuries. Holkans are a crappy UU and overrated just by nature of the fact that people rate them, though I guess you get more use here when you aren't guaranteed copper.

11) Merovech + Ad Hoc - Augustus (Ind/Imp) of Arabia (Myst/Wheel)

Youch, welcome to multi-player Merovech. Hopefully you get a good land roll? The thing that makes this especially bad is the terrible civ. Those starting techs are just putrid. I don't even know what the Madrassa UB does and I don't feel like looking it up... The Camel Archer I guess is a tiny, tiny bit useful in a game where you aren't guaranteed horse, but... In a game full of solid UUs, it looks pretty craptacular too.

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Like I said at the start of this, these rankings don't matter as much as you think. If we were doing that inverse start/leader thing, I would take Merovech's crappy stuff and his theoretical amazing start in a heartbeat. The gaps between these just aren't nearly as pronounced as vanilla, and it's the one thing I do really like about the mod. So, that's my list. Reviewing it now, I could re-arrange this a bunch of different ways. I wouldn't worry too much about the order of the rankings because so many of these are interchangeable, but it's a nice exercise to think about all the benefits each player has so we know what we're up against. I'll have a much smaller follow-up post in a bit trying to identify threats to watch out for in this game.

[NobleHelium]

I think ballista elephants are OP. They are the new praetorians. Giving them the knight bonus is fine, but they should still be strength 7. With the knight bonus at strength 7 they'd be as strong as old elephants against knights.

Oh and ORG is also OP. It's easily the best definitively quantifiable trait (i.e. not SPI) available. There's no reason to keep the library bonus given how strong ORG is in vanilla right now with the current metagame.

[scooter]

Agreed. Ballistaphants are just awesome. Commodore will wreck somebody with those. On this type of map, the top 3 traits are easily SPI, ORG, and FIN, roughly in that order. Debatably you could swap ORG and SPI since ORG is so good on this type of map.

[Cyneheard]

I think ballista elephants are OP. They are the new praetorians. Giving them the knight bonus is fine, but they should still be strength 7. With the knight bonus at strength 7 they'd be as strong as old elephants against knights.

You're describing new WE: 7str, +50% vs. Mounted, +25% vs knights. Ballista probably should've lost their target-mounted-first bonus, THAT was a mistake.