(May 14th, 2013, 21:41)Merovech Wrote: Remember that hunting gives a pre-req discount to AH.
Yeah, but if we hook up an AH resource quicker by going to it first(Or are able to better choose our settling due to knowing the location of horse) then it is worth AH first.
Yes...but you have a hunting resource (and it's your second-best tile) and no AH resources. Your choice, of course.
It'll probably be something that depends on the landscape, really. If we don't have quick AH sources, Hunting would probably move up.
(The Deer is not our second best tile, however: The Fish and Corn are both superior)
Just to comment on that: Without AH resources their certainly is no need to tech AH before getting a tech that enables a 6-yield-tile. Even with AH resources it would be debatable. Additionally as Joao, Forest Grassland Deer actually is your best tile available, as it is 6 yield (similar to Corn and LH-Fish) but with 2 hammers will get bonuses for settlers and eventually workers.
Also the fish-tile is not good enough to consider to improve imo, even when you start with Fishing. You need a LH and a workboat to make it as good as the Corn, just yielding one commerce more. That's 90 hammers for just 1 commerce a turn. That's a settler and 3/4 of a worker. That's not even close to be as good as your corn, let alone your Deer.
And lastly: Why would you get Wheel and Pottery before Hunting? Yes whipping is nice, especially with that capital. But it certainly isn't worth delaying improving the Deer by like 15 turns or longer.
I agree whole-heartedly with Serdoa, in fact, he even attributes fish as a six food tile, which it isn't until you get a lighthouse, making it even worse than he mentioned. In my opinion, BW first is a bad decision.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(May 15th, 2013, 12:57)Merovech Wrote: I agree whole-heartedly with Serdoa, in fact, he even attributes fish as a six food tile, which it isn't until you get a lighthouse, making it even worse than he mentioned. In my opinion, BW first is a bad decision.
he mentioned that :P.
I agree with slotting hunting or ag before BW, though.
Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.
(May 15th, 2013, 12:57)Merovech Wrote: I agree whole-heartedly with Serdoa, in fact, he even attributes fish as a six food tile, which it isn't until you get a lighthouse, making it even worse than he mentioned. In my opinion, BW first is a bad decision.
he mentioned that :P.
I agree with slotting hunting or ag before BW, though.
Misread, my apologies, Serdoa. Anyway, I say at least try a few sims with both before BW. I think that will give the best results.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Mhm, what our scout is going to find next will determine what out research path is. Obviously we are going to want to go agriculture after BW, if we see some AH resources I would say go for AH. Then go for hunting to connect the deer, so we have 3 food resources we can work with. This should allow us to make a settler at record pace with some chops to speed it along. But we need to fit in some warriors at some point, so we can have a way to deal with barbs, and have a replacement scout in case our scout dies to barbs.
(May 14th, 2013, 21:41)Merovech Wrote: Remember that hunting gives a pre-req discount to AH.
Yeah, but if we hook up an AH resource quicker by going to it first(Or are able to better choose our settling due to knowing the location of horse) then it is worth AH first.
Yes...but you have a hunting resource (and it's your second-best tile) and no AH resources. Your choice, of course.
It'll probably be something that depends on the landscape, really. If we don't have quick AH sources, Hunting would probably move up.
(The Deer is not our second best tile, however: The Fish and Corn are both superior)
Just to comment on that: Without AH resources their certainly is no need to tech AH before getting a tech that enables a 6-yield-tile. Even with AH resources it would be debatable. Additionally as Joao, Forest Grassland Deer actually is your best tile available, as it is 6 yield (similar to Corn and LH-Fish) but with 2 hammers will get bonuses for settlers and eventually workers.
Also the fish-tile is not good enough to consider to improve imo, even when you start with Fishing. You need a LH and a workboat to make it as good as the Corn, just yielding one commerce more. That's 90 hammers for just 1 commerce a turn. That's a settler and 3/4 of a worker. That's not even close to be as good as your corn, let alone your Deer.
And lastly: Why would you get Wheel and Pottery before Hunting? Yes whipping is nice, especially with that capital. But it certainly isn't worth delaying improving the Deer by like 15 turns or longer.
You ultimately get more food from having a Granary to fill up the food box than improving the Deer, both short and long term, but Pottery also comes with the advantages of:
Being able to chop out a Granary in a new city quickly, making it grow much faster
Cottages, an important improvement that can be put down in almost any city
While Hunting merely gives us the ability to camp a single tile which can be instead worked with seafood. I also do not understand the comment about Deer yield: It is a 5 food/1 hammer tile, not two hammers, unless you mean that it means I only need 2 hammers to Expansive...which given we have the Plains Hill does not mean enough to delay other things for it. It also does not work to call it 6 yield, then compare it to the Fish: Corn is 6 yield(5 food + 1 commerce), but Fish is 7-8 yield (5 food, 6 with LH, + 2 commerce from coast). With only a 30H Work Boat, the Fish has superior total yields to the Deer, plus will later get a Lighthouse. In addition, a Workboat is easy to whip out or build with overflow, while the early 2 commerce slight boost to research time is useful. Considering we will be whipping a lot, we will get more overall value from using the Fish to whip ourselves and grow than using the Deer's hammer to help build.
Comments on BW first: Why would we get something before BW first? Chopping out the first worker makes it faster than Agriculture or Hunting first! The time to takes to build the second Worker is made up for by chopping out a second before anyone else (Thanks to Expansive, which we share for no opponents!) and does not waste Worker Turns, while getting the Farm out plenty fast enough thanks to 2 Workers building it faster. And if we went Agriculture or worse yet Hunting first, all we do is waste horrible amounts of Worker turns: We only have 3 pre-BW tiles we can improve with Agriculture first (Corn, plains next to lake, grassland next to lake) and ONE if we went Hunting first (The Deer), while not being able to boost the second Worker's speed with chops. We waste Worker time and turn time. It's just plain silly to not go BW first here.
BaII wasn't around to discuss it, so I just moved the Scout where I figured I should.
Bingo! Wet corn. I say next turn we swing above that forest and to the one next to it, then around to see if there is any seafood there and thus are able to do our best preparing city sites.
the commerce is negliable for your snowball, the food and hammers are much more important. the hammers moreso, since they multiply with IMP and EXP, whereas the food doesnt. so you are comparing a 5/1 (possibly 5/2 if the extra hammer gives you 2 hammers while building a settler or worker) deer to a 5/0 fish, only the deer doesnt require a workboat being built, the fish does. it will probably be a bit before you can afford to build a lighthouse.
with that much food you won't have need of a granary in your capital for sometime - in fact building one instead of settlers or workers would slow you down (secondary cities with less food its a different story)
as for the worker: all you can chop out is workers that can't do anything but chop until you get ag or hunting. you onloy have so many forests anyway, and you want to at least be working improved tiles ASAP
Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.
(May 15th, 2013, 15:25)Bigger Wrote: the commerce is negliable for your snowball, the food and hammers are much more important. the hammers moreso, since they multiply with IMP and EXP, whereas the food doesnt. so you are comparing a 5/1 (possibly 5/2 if the extra hammer gives you 2 hammers while building a settler or worker) deer to a 5/0 fish, only the deer doesnt require a workboat being built, the fish does. it will probably be a bit before you can afford to build a lighthouse.
with that much food you won't have need of a granary in your capital for sometime - in fact building one instead of settlers or workers would slow you down (secondary cities with less food its a different story)
as for the worker: all you can chop out is workers that can't do anything but chop until you get ag or hunting. you onloy have so many forests anyway, and you want to at least be working improved tiles ASAP
Working the Corn over anything else doesn't help more than the chops even if it is improved. In addition, BW technically unlocks the most ability to work improved tiles than any other tech, but I doubt you're thinking "Mines" when you say that.
Granaries are always a good idea when you are whipping a lot and our Granaries are only 30H due to Expansive: A single whip or about 2T of production and a chop. In return, you save about 2T-3T of growing to the next pop, each pop, including the food. You can doublewhip Settlers faster, whip out buildings faster and so on and so forth. An early Granary is amazing for an Expansive civ! It shouldn't necessarily be the first capital build, but it should be one made quickly, because it provides more bonus the earlier it is built. It will speed us up if we build it over Settlers because we will end up doublewhipping Settlers when we are set up.
I do not feel the hammers are more important than commerce. We have the whip and 4-5 food resources. We won't be hand-building too much, we'll be people-building it. Why should 1 hammer per turn getting a Settler/Worker out 1T faster matter when I can whip it out to make it come out, say, 5T faster than that? And we're going to be chopping out Settlers at the start anyway! Using chops to build a Worker base is a well known and proven strategy used in previous RB games: Look at Sullla's secret forum report in PB4 or how he handled PB2 (Though PB2 is skewed due to the Fast Worker), in addition to other PBEM games. With 8 non-Deer choppable forests and 5 food resources, we should be building as little as possible and chopping/whipping out as much as possible to make the best use of our highest yield tiles and our forests. Also, it won't take too long to build a Lighthouse: If we want it so much, we can just 2-pop whip it and grow back using our many food tiles.
what are you building early on? I would assume settlers and workers, otherwise why did you pick Jao? so corn and deer are better than mines. and if you are whipping you won't be able to work the mines anyway, you'll need the food to regrow
Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.