North Korea Part II- The Final Naming Scheme

[Oxyphenbutazone]

Excerpt from “The Beginnings of the Great Utopian State” by James O’Brian

In the beginning of time, 10 civilizations abandoned their nomadic ways of life and flocked to cities. Of these nations, the Utopians were far superior.


Official Utopian Government leaflet circa 3600 BC, roughly translated message is “We just enjoy life”

In a time when most people in the world were subjugated by a tribal system, the early Utopians lived in a strictly ordered society. Children were taught from a young age of the literal utopia that they inhabited and how to preserve it. People were constantly made to pay respect to the ruling party’s slogans and slowly they set in.


“Slaves” in Utopian society, willfully sacrificing themselves for the state.

In 3120 BC, the knowledge of copper proliferated throughout the preeminent city state of Airstrip One. One party leader, Gandhi I, saw potential for the use of copper weapons to control the populace and harness raw population for the sake of production, to the unenlightened this practice was called slavery. However, in Utopia, it was known as “reallocation of human assets for the betterment of the state,” or RHABS, the first time in history an acronym was used to hide the true intent of a government policy.


The feared Ghandi I

Now in most corners of the world, the proletariat rebelled when tribes first introduced slavery. However, nothing of the like happened in Utopia. The party adopted a policy of “spirituality.” This was simply a euphemism for crushing potential revolt leaders. The government propagated such slogans as, “it probably won’t be you” and “adopt spirituality and there will be no fatalities.” Gandhi I officially sanctioned raids on suspect individuals and mass executions, all in the name of preserving the “spirituality” of the Utopian people.




...


Commodore does it better, but I was bored- 3-day weekend+disgusting weather+cold=nothing to do except study and fuck around on the internet

[Commodore]

Heh.

[Oxyphenbutazone]

This weeks installment of, "The Misadventures of Lion Evader"




Ursines!

In more revelant news,




Mindy should be happy

Azza could be really annoying here and DOW and camp on the rice, but I doubt he will. If he does, then he'll make an enemy for life anyway .

EP ratios suggest he has met at least one other person.

[MindyMcCready]

ON the yellow city. What would be the disadvantge of making this a commerce city?

+2F + 1oasis + 4 Corn - 2 gold + 1 farm. +6 food which can grow onto 4 grassland cottages and then another 4 plains cottages. Toss in the high trade wines plus a windmill or two,..?

This seems like a strong commerce site that has the production to build the infrastructure it needs.

No rivers, lots of hills and desert. 4 cottages and a gold resource is not a good commerce city, it's a half-assed one.

Ok, I'm going to bug you about this again, because that comment seems a little unfounded.

Yellow dot as a commercial site:
Size 1 Corn: +6F
Size 2 Gold: +4F, 1 commerce tile
Size 3 Oasis: +5F
Size 4 NNE Farm: +6F
Size 5 NW Cottage: +6F, 2 commerce tiles
Size 6 NEE Cottage: +6F 3 commerce tiles
Size 7 WW Cottage: +6F 4 commerce tiles
Size 8 E Cottage: +6F, 5 commerce tiles
Size 9 SE Winery; +5F, 6 commerce tiles
Size 10 SEE Winery; +4 F, 7 commerce tiles
Size 11 NE Cottage; +3F, 8 commerce tiles
Size 12 EE Cottage; +2F, 9 commece tiles
Size 13 S Cottage; +1F, 10 commerce tiles
Size 14 W Windmill; +1F, 10 commerce tiles
Size 15 SSE Cottage; +0F, 11 commerce tiles.

So I don't see this really being a bad commerce location.

Now for your green dot. For simplicity sake, I'll assume that you'll chop the monument and instantly have the wheat tile.

Size 1 Wheat; +4F?
Size 2 SWW cottage; +5F, 1 commerce
Size 3 W Cottage; +5F, 2 commerce
Size 4 NN Cottage; +5F, 3 commerce
Size 5 NNW Cottage; +5F, 4 commerce
Size 6 NW Cottage; +4F, 5 commerce
Size 7 NE Cottage; +3F, 6 commerce
Size 8 S Cottage; +2F, 7 commerce
Size 9 NNE Cottage +1F, 8 commerce
Size 10 SEE Cottage +1F, 9 commerce
Size 11 SS Cottage 0F, 10 commerce

So no offense, but I'm kinda seeing my 'half-ass' commerce site as beating your green dot both short term and medium term, and maybe falling behind a little long-term. Let's not over-value the river tiles for a non-commercial civ. They represent 8-10 commerce and those are achieved regardless but maximized by a commerce city designation of course. Nothing to sneeze at, but the gold is what 8 commerce right there? Followed up with the 2 wine tiles for 5 commerce apiece? Until pretty far into the game, those 3 tiles are your highest commerce tiles that I've seen on this map.

But that's not the only issue. Yellow dot has production from gold, wines, wines, grass hill to support its infrastructure needs. Green dot, has only those 4-5 riverside plains cottages to support its production needs. Of course, you can farm some of those riverside plains cottages, but that takes away from the commerce locations.

Now let's look at NWW of your Green Dot site which was my suggested site.

Size 1 NWW Farm: +4F (no insta-culture assumption required)
Size 2 SS Farm: +6F
Size 3 NW cottage: +6F, 1 commerce
Size 4 N Cottage; +6F, 2 commerce
Size 5 SE Cottage; +6F, 3 commerce
Size 6 NE 0Cottage; +6F, 4 commerce
Size 7 NEE Cottage; +6F, 5 commerce
Size 8 E Cottage; +5F, 6 commerce
Size 9 S Cottage; +4F 7 commerce
Size 10 W Cottage; +3F, 8 commerce
Size 11 WW Cottage; +2F 9 commerce
Size 12 SWW Cottage; +1F 10 Commerce
Size 13 NN Cottage; +0F 11 commerce (? plains tile?)

So I don't see this site being any worse than your green dot, roughly equal really. Its got almost all of the same characteristics of your green dot, but is 2 tiles closer to the capital.

Howver, even more importantly, it supports a really strong city NE of the wheat. That city as wheat, cows and at least one flood plains.But that requires moving your purple dot. So how about moving purple dot NN to the location 1E of the corn? Comes online pretty instantly with the corn + wines in the first ring + anther wine, flood plains in the second ring. Its a poor city long-term, but short-term it's pretty good. I see few disadvantages of moving purple dot 2N.

Moving green dot also creates the land necessary for a spot south either 2S of Panem or 1E of the copper.

[MindyMcCready]

Mindy should be happy

Hee-hee.

Actually, I'd have trouble wanting to war with Azza. I don't know why, but I've always kinda been cheering for the guy.

Don't worry,...I'll get over it. His thread title coming true will make me laugh.

[Oxyphenbutazone]

The fact remains that non-Financial, non-riverside cottage tiles are just not very good. It takes 10 turns for them to equalize coast tiles in terms of commerce and 30 turns to surpass them. After that, you wait another long 30 terms for... one more commerce. Printing press gives another commerce and possibly free speech gives more, but I doubt we will be in that civic.

That just is not optimal, and it is exasperated by the fact that Yellow dot is not so hot on food when it is working the gold tile(which we always want to work). We need to farm there to get a meaningful food surplus. Working a bunch of grassland cottages and mines, the food surplus at yellow will be an attrocious +3 or +2. You want yellow to grow to size 15 for maximum commerce output, that will take hundreds of turns. With farms on a bunch of the grasslands, we can get +6 food surplus there easily. Finally, short term the cottages will be less than worthless, when working mines and pumping out settlers and workers would be really useful. So using this as a hammer city and having the capital work a bunch of cottages is a lot more efficient than cottaging all of the tiles at this city.

Now take green, it has a bunch of river tiles, which make a huge difference actually. Now the cottages will surpass working coast after just 10 turns, instead of 30. In addition, this city will have a food surplus. Post CS, the wheat will be 5f and the FP cottage will be 3f, so +6 pretty easily. Then it picks up the 3 food neutral riverside grassland cottages. Then it can start picking up the plains cottages, but only once it has grown quite a bit and can afford to work 1f tiles. Green also has a decent amount of production with a PH center, 2 hills and a bunch of plains, it can get 12ish production, modified to 18 by OR+Forge pretty easily.

Now then, for your proposed city NE of the wheat, it would be a great city, but it is simply too far from the capital. It would require a huge investment both in worker turns, unit support and the military necessary to defend the city. Realistically, we would have to settle inbetween the capital and that city, but where? 2S of Panem would have no food, even after farming the FP, that is +4 food surplus, so no that wouldn't work. I just don't think it is feasible. The current settling order will be Malcandra-Liberia-Animal Farm-Neo-Seoul-Panem-Harding-The World State. That let's us gradually expand or borders, not just make a crazy, indefensible plants. Let's not be Azza in PB9.

Oh and we're going to be settlign Panem right around the time we get Code of Laws, so a monument won't be necessary.

[Oxyphenbutazone]

Mindy should be happy

Hee-hee.

Actually, I'd have trouble wanting to war with Azza. I don't know why, but I've always kinda been cheering for the guy.

Don't worry,...I'll get over it. His thread title coming true will make me laugh.

hammer

[MindyMcCready]

I find that you're flipping between marginal return arguments and then over to total output arguments to make your points. No problem with you doing so, so long as we still arrive at the correct conclusion. You're also making arguments regarding the general nature of production cities versus commerce cities which doesn't help to decide which one goes where.

Bottom line, I'm still having trouble seeing that your green dot commerce city + yellow dot production city exceeding the combination of my yellow dot commerce city + NWW of green dot production city. Non-simmed gut feeling and all, but I'm still seeing the yellow dot commerce getting up quicker than your green dot commerce. I see a marketplace in yellow dot getting up at least as quickly, and the multiplier resulting in a higher number. Also, I see my NNW of green dot production city trouncing yellow dot production city long term with those watermills.

The fact remains that non-Financial, non-riverside cottage tiles are just not very good.

I agree and understand this. They're an investment for the future. Nevertheless, its the total commercial output of a city throughtout many points in the game that will determine its suitablilty as a commerce centre and its not clear (to me) that green is superior there.

That just is not optimal, and it is exasperated by the fact that Yellow dot is not so hot on food when it is working the gold tile

This is accounted for in the example. I have made 'like' examples for comparison purposes. All of the example cities have the ability to swap between farms and cottages at any time and then swtich back. True, Green dot more so than yellow. But Green dot's ability here is matched by proposed NWW of green dot.

We need to farm there to get a meaningful food surplus. Working a bunch of grassland cottages and mines, the food surplus at yellow will be an attrocious +3 or +2.

In the example Yellow dot has 1 farm to get the +6 food. Yellow dot has another grassland farm available to it so it could get +7 food. Under the +6F example, Yellow dot hits +3F at size 11 working 8 commerce tiles. Green dot maxes out at size 11 working 10 commerce tiles but doesn't have a significant ability to get there more quickly without out sacrificing commercial output. Green dot can work an extra plains farm but it doen't materially affect the commerce.

You want yellow to grow to size 15 for maximum commerce output, that will take hundreds of turns. With farms on a bunch of the grasslands, we can get +6 food surplus there easily.

Agreed, but it can still get to size 11 about as quickly as Green dot. Unless green dot turns all available tiles into farms and produces no commerce while doing so. This of course is the very definition of a future investment,....much like working a non-riverside grassland cottage.

With farms on a bunch of the grasslands, we can get +6 food surplus there easily. Finally, short term the cottages will be less than worthless, when working mines and pumping out settlers and workers would be really useful. So using this as a hammer city and having the capital work a bunch of cottages is a lot more efficient than cottaging all of the tiles at this city.

This is primarily a general argument of production city vs commercial city. I don't see how this helps to decide which one goes where. I'm not sure that the capital belongs in this discussion. We could make both of them production cities with the capital doing all the commerce for example but I don't think that's what we're discussing.

Now take green, it has a bunch of river tiles, which make a huge difference actually. Now the cottages will surpass working coast after just 10 turns, instead of 30. In addition, this city will have a food surplus.

Sure, but its the total output that matters. And no, it won't 'in addition' have a food surplus because that's double counting. Both scenarios had a roughly equivalent food surplus. I probably should have equalized the food surplus between the cities but there's a +1F difference. Doh!

Post CS, the wheat will be 5f and the FP cottage will be 3f, so +6 pretty easily.

Right. One for me: . That'll help the equation.

Green also has a decent amount of production with a PH center, 2 hills and a bunch of plains, it can get 12ish production, modified to 18 by OR+Forge pretty easily.

No double counting is allowed here. You cannot work the hills without losing those riverside cottage commerce or the food surplus. Adjust my scenario however you want, but yellow dot clearly has the hills to also work should it want to. In comparing the Yellow dot commerce to green dot commerce neither worked hills but both could have at the expense of grassland or plains.

Now then, for your proposed city NE of the wheat, it would be a great city, but it is simply too far from the capital. It would require a huge investment both in worker turns, unit support and the military necessary to defend the city. Realistically, we would have to settle inbetween the capital and that city, but where? 2S of Panem would have no food, even after farming the FP, that is +4 food surplus, so no that wouldn't work. I just don't think it is feasible. The current settling order will be Malcandra-Liberia-Animal Farm-Neo-Seoul-Panem-Harding-The World State. That let's us gradually expand or borders, not just make a crazy, indefensible plants. Let's not be Azza in PB9.

And I thought that I was dramatic. Nobody said that that should be our next city. Just that we settle in a way that allows it in the future. Personally, I don't see that my proposal sacrifices anything to do so.

The inbetween city was NWW of green dot. That's why there's the 3rd city comparison in there. Basically to highlight the point that it's got largely the same characteristics as green dot.

Also, if you were to place NN of purple dot then defenders could sit ON purple dot and fork-defend both cities so that's one option.

Also, in my ideal world, NWW of Green Dot would be a contender for Heroic Epic so the military situation there should be well in hand unless we're badly losing.

2S of Panem would have no food,

Quite right. Another one for me.

Oh and we're going to be settlign Panem right around the time we get Code of Laws, so a monument won't be necessary.

Great.

Anyway, I'm not trying to bust your chops here. Just a critical eye trying to help determine the best course of action. We have quite a bit of time until this needs to be decided. It might be in your interest to sim this out if you haven't done so already.

[Oxyphenbutazone]

Oh please don't think I'm taking offense by your disagreement, frankly a dedlurker who didn't disagree with me would be completely useless

I have done a number of sims, and in fact I was just about to right up a report which would show the results of our micro. I'll finish that and do a different one using your proposition of turning yellow into a commerce city and settling that city NW-W of Green.

As for the comment on the capital, I think it is relevant. If we want yellow to work a bunch of cottages, than it's ability to make workers will greatly suffer. That means a greater burden will be placed on our other cities if we want to expand. That means our capital will be whipping more and working more mines to make up the difference, which will in turn slow down it's development. And we want the Capital to grow incredibly tall, so it can work as many academy-boosted cottages as possible.

[Oxyphenbutazone]

Ok- City Specilization Plan 1

Here's our second city founded t38




And our third on t49




A forest chop comes in right as the city is founded for a 2 turn monument build thanks to working the mine. Then the city will alternate between working the plains forest and the FP in order to a workboat right before the borders pop. Later, a second forest chop will finish a second workboat and the FP will be farmed. The I'll be doing a couple 6-4 settler whips, before finally growing it to size 8 for caste system.




And our fourth city on t66. This will be our military pump for the north. It goes warrior-barracks-axe/chariot and just is there to keep the barbs and the other players honest.




Our second city completes its library and starts working those scientists




And we found our next city which serves its purpose of being a crummy production city. I'll probably pump workers/military out of this city as well. I have it so we whip the capital one pop for the settler for this city and then overflow along with a forest chop for a 3t turn settler.




And another city, founded just before we discover caste system. This will be a decent hammer city I guess, I am still undecided.




Finally, green dot settled t82, working dat caste artist for faux-creative goodness




And the capital on t85, building another settler while I wait for monarchy(about 10 turns to go masonry-monotheism-monarchy)

So, there are my proposed first 85 turns. I think it puts us in a pretty good situation, good research rate, good CY, 8 cities, with another one coming in about 10 turns. The Wheat-Cows city will build a galley so we can colonize the sheep island to the south. All in all about 10 cities by t100, which is a good expansion rate considering we are not India/EXP/IMP/PH plant.