EitB v12 Wishlist/Progress

[Tasunke]

Both of these sound pretty good. Alternatively I suppose we could increase GA length from 9 turns to 10 turns?

Or both reduce Civic Swap from 10 to 9* and increase GA length from 9 to 10* and that way both are a bit different eh?

[Northstar1989]

OK, Q, so I'm going to make some specific suggestions about re-balances that I think should be made to the game. This in no way bears on any existing games...

- I think that Falamar of the Lanun should be given back his Adaptive trait (applied to Expansive). On non-water maps the only real strength of the Lanun is in their leaders- and Expansive is such a good train anyways this is IMHO only a minor advantage... Hannah the Irin is by far the "one right choice" for a leader, due to Insane (and gaining THREE traits at some point in the game), without Falamar being Adaptive...

- I think the Luchiurp could use a bit of a buff- they are currently one of the weaker (although by far not the weakest) civs in Erebus in the Balance. Previous modders have attempted to improve the faction by giving them all sorts of extra buildings they can build for their golems with the appropriate mana type- but IMHO that's just silly, as the Luchiurp are not a faction of mages but of builders/sculptors. The most logical re-balance would seem to be to buff the Sculptor's Studio a bit. I suggest giving it an extra culture point or two per turn, and/or making it build at double-speed with access to Marble (which is currently one of the more under-utilized resources in Fall From Heaven 2, and would only affect a minority of games as the Luchiurp where Marble is readily-accessible...)

- Per discussion of how to buff the Elohim a bit earlier in this thread, I concur that improving the Reliquary is the way to go- both canonically and as it is the only Elohim building available sufficiently early in the game to make any real difference... I suggest the following changes

(1) The sickness penalty should be removed (it always seemed like a bit of s stretch to me as a biologist in real life to explain it as the city becoming overcrowded to be the same- naturally the city's population is going to remain the same regardless of the presence/absence of the building, and canonically it makes no sense that a holy place would make a city LESS healthy to reside in).

(2) The Reqliuary should be given either an additional two culture points per turn (culture isn't very useful most of the time- so this will only be a minor buff) or an extra hammer per turn (I'm aware that this would be a MAJOR buff- in itself single-handedly able to mostly balance the Elohim civ agaisnt stronger civs...) Alternatively, the free March promotion for units trained there (*in addition to* Spirit Guide) that was suggested earleir on this thread sounds like a decent idea...

(3) This is a suggestion specific to Ethne the White- who is currently probably the weakest leader for the Elohim. The Reliquary should be eligible to be built at double-speed with the Creative trait just like the Monument normally is. It makes no sense to me that having the Reliquary instead of a Monument should be a PENALTY to Elohim leaders with the Creative trait...


- I think that the key to nerfing the Clan a bit to make it less broken of a faction in Erebus in the Balance (it's far too strong compared to most other civs in my opinion) is in the Warrens building. I think canonically, the benefit it provides is just fine- but there should be some kind of drawback. The official Fall From Heeaven Lore Compedium gives the following description of the building that hints at an appropriate drawback...

WARRENS
When we finally conquered their city, we were not prepared to face what was hidden in these
strange, ruined buildings. I was chosen to be part of an exploration team sent inside what we
thought to be a shabby warehouse, but once inside the stench of rotting flesh almost stunned
me. In the dim light of our lantern we saw thousand of little shiny eyes, belonging to countless
baby orcs fighting one another or feasting on rats and other vermin. Here and there my
eyes caught the shapes of pregnant orc females, their swelled wombs forcing them to sit helplessly
in the dirt. We all knew war too well and knew what had to be done, but in my heart
I felt like the monsters I sworn to fight, as killing children was horrible for me, regardless of
their race. Our commander ordered to set fire to these warrens, and I think I will never forget
their screams… that day I paid with my own humanity the price of joining the crusade…
—Jarn, Bannor soldier


Given that description, particularly the parts about "Rotting flesh" and pregnant female orcs with "swelled wombs forcing them to sit helplessly in the dirt" and other general descriptions of cramped and squalid conditions in the Warrens, I think it would make perfect sense that the Warrens building should come with a major unhealthiness penalty to the city that builds it. +3 unhealthy sounds reasonable to me to balance the Clan faction, and neither would exceed the free health-bonus that the Clan gets with Jonas Endain as their leader from his Expansive trait (which is still very useful for the double-speed Settlers). Honestly it never made any sense to me that a holy place (the Reliquary) would make a city LESS healthy to live in, but a building that is openly described as a fetid pit of squalor and misery would have no effect on the city's healthiness- and it will force Clan players to think a bit more carefully about where they choose to build Warrens... Besides, they're orcs- they're SUPPOSED to be filthy/dirty creatures, not HEALTHIER than most other races- which is currently the case with Jonas Endain as their leader...

+3 unhealthy to the Warrens would basically be enough to single-handedly balance the Clan faction.


Q if you implement these suggestions for EitB v12, you will remove all reason I have to complain that the Elohim are weak or the Clan over-powered (and you are favoring one of your go-to civs), as I will see you are actively trying to rectify this situation in a way that is appropriate for lore and game balance...

Once again, nothing about these suggestions should be taken to or is intended to in any way influence any ongoing games. It is true my experiences (largely Single Player, but also Multiplayer) playing as and against these factions has brought them more to the top of my mind than they would otherwise have been, but these are general ideas about the factions, made as suggestions in an appropriate thread, and kept without any references to any ongoing games.

If you report or attempt to otherwise squash these suggestions, you will just be showing that you feel nobody has the right to questions your decisions or try and contribute to the balance of the game, rather than that this really has anything to do with your feeling I am trying something illegitimate by making these suggestions.


Regards,
Northstar

[Northstar1989]

Q,

I just wanted to point out that I went back and revised my suggestions a but (increasing the suggested culture bonus from +1 to +2 for the Reliquary, or unhealthy-penalty for the Warren from -2 to -3, for instance) to be effects that would be large enough to be more significant in gameplay. I also added a section on how the Luchiurp could be buffed out a bit- because IMHO they are also currently one of the weaker factions in multiplayer (particularly due to the vulnerability of their hero to being killed and having his parts carried off by a rival early on, as has happened in past FFH2 PBEM's...)


Regards,
Northstar

[Agnes The Orphan]

Lets go through this piece by piece:

Falamar receives Adaptive.

No. The Lanun have received enormous bonuses in this modmod, and they're certainly not one of the weaker civs. Is their strength tied to the water content of a map? Certainly! But that's the point of their civ, and there's no reason to try and make them able to go toe-to-toe with other leaders if they have no water - especially bearing in mind that would just make them grossly overpowered when water is around.
And Adaptive Falamar would be one of the most powerful leaders in the mod. And INS Hannah is designed against Falamar as is - Falamar is consistent awesomeness, Hannah can be amazing but requires good luck on her switch.
So yeah, I don't think you've given enough reasoning for the status quo to change.

Re: Luchuirp: I suggest giving it [sculpters studio]an extra culture point or two per turn, and/or making it build at double-speed with access to Marble.

Why would it get an extra culture point or two? I'd really rather not have more options for culture created.
It's not getting double speed with marble. It's anti thematic (we're put in mind of dingy little workshops where they're tinkering away, not vaunted temples), and a nebulous change. I'm willing to cut the hammer price of Studios, though.

Reliquary changes.

I dunno, I kinda like the unhealth. Makes it kinda unique. It fits into the lore because your city is being overwhelmed by pilgrims. Besides, it's a tiny change one way or the other.
The free March promo is going to happen. It's not going up to 4cpt, either.
Thanks! Cre not doubling Reliquary's is a bug (obviously).

Warrens unhealthiness.

I'm going to explicitly say no to the level you provided (3). This is irrespective of whether or not your principle is correct, but to give -3 unhealth would unfairly advantage Jonas over Sheelba, to the point of making Sheelba unusable. Giving lesser levels has no effect on Jonas and only hits Sheelba. So unhealth isn't a mechanism I'd use here.

Let's look at the principle then: That warrens need some sort of nerf. I'm not actually opposed to this in principle because, whilst I disagree that the Clan are broken from t1 (they require an enormous amount of setup) they certainly are one of the more powerful civilizations, and so a nerf is not wholly inappropriate.
However, I don't like that to be my balancing philosophy. I'd rather boost weak civs up to match the Clan then hit on them directly. I'm certainly prepared to do it with the appropriate nerf, but nerfs are a thing I prefer to limit as a rule, because they're singularly unfun.


Please don't try and guilt or force me into making a particular decision here. I've never heard accusations of bias from anyone in the past, I don't believe yours are valid now, and I'm not going to let that push me into making a certain decision if its not right for the mod.

[Agnes The Orphan]

Oh bugger. I'll sort this out when I'm on my main comp.

(This is Q.)

[Northstar1989]

Lets go through this piece by piece:

Falamar receives Adaptive.

No. The Lanun have received enormous bonuses in this modmod, and they're certainly not one of the weaker civs. Is their strength tied to the water content of a map? Certainly! But that's the point of their civ, and there's no reason to try and make them able to go toe-to-toe with other leaders if they have no water - especially bearing in mind that would just make them grossly overpowered when water is around.
And Adaptive Falamar would be one of the most powerful leaders in the mod. And INS Hannah is designed against Falamar as is - Falamar is consistent awesomeness, Hannah can be amazing but requires good luck on her switch.
So yeah, I don't think you've given enough reasoning for the status quo to change.

The point of this mod-mod is to make FFH2 balanced for multiplayer, is it not? Nobody in their right mind is going to allow the selection of a map that is heavily enough water-focused for the Lanun to really shine- so they require a buff. Your reasoning against this makes absolutely no sense- you maintain a mod based on multiplayer balance, and then you argue against buffing a faction that is really only good in a very specific circumstance (extremely water-heavy map) that is realistically never going to happen in multiplayer.

Besides, this isn't an overall buff for the civilization- just a buff for one of the leaders. As I already pointed out, Expansive is generally the best second trait for Falamar anyways- so giving him Adaptive on that is *not* going to help him all that much...

Re: Luchuirp: I suggest giving it [sculpters studio]an extra culture point or two per turn, and/or making it build at double-speed with access to Marble.

Why would it get an extra culture point or two? I'd really rather not have more options for culture created.
It's not getting double speed with marble. It's anti thematic (we're put in mind of dingy little workshops where they're tinkering away, not vaunted temples), and a nebulous change. I'm willing to cut the hammer price of Studios, though.

The studio already produces extra culture points (these can be assumed to come from crafting statues for civic use rather than golems). I just suggest increasing the magnitude of that benefit a bit. Culture-points are nearly-worthless (beyond what is needed for the first couple of rings of borders) so this is hardly game-breaking...

And why wouldn't you want more options for creating culture? Players are generally going to disable Cultural victories in multiplayer games, so it's really not that valuable of a benefit anyways...


At the very least, Sculptor's Studios should have some kind of synergy with Marble. The idea is not that the studios are built out of marble (frankly that would be ridiculous) but that many of the statues are carved out of marble (remember the existing culture-bonus: clearly some of the statues being created are just normal statues for civic use. The FFH2 Lore Compedium supports this as well- remember when the Luchiurp craftsdwarf was hired to chip away at that statue stolen from the Ljosafar that hid the fragment of the Black Mirror of Agares? Clearly the Luchiurp have some expertise with civic statuary...)

A +1 hammer with Marble or a +5 or 10% production for the city with Marble on the Luchiurp Sculptor's Studio would be quite reasonable.

The Sculptor's Studio is the basis of the Luchiurp military, and as such it's going to get built in a lot of cities (especially considering its existing culture-bonus). Buffing it is the most sensible way to buff the Luchiurp faction overall...

Reliquary changes.

I dunno, I kinda like the unhealth. Makes it kinda unique. It fits into the lore because your city is being overwhelmed by pilgrims. Besides, it's a tiny change one way or the other.
The free March promo is going to happen. It's not going up to 4cpt, either.
Thanks! Cre not doubling Reliquary's is a bug (obviously).

Wait, so the free March promotion is or is not going to happen? You yourself were entertaining the idea a while back. Now you say "It's not going up to 4 cpt, either"- which would imply you decided agaisnt that.

It makes ABSOLUTELY NOT SENSE that a Reliquary would produce more unhealthiness from a handful of pilgrims than a Warrens full of squalor, filth, and overcrowding would for being filled with pregnant orcs (pregnancy and childbirth is one of the MOST DANGEROUS times from a health and infection standpoint in real life, by the way- trust me I'm a biologist with a specialty in virology...)

You also don't even address the suggestion of giving the Reliquary +1 hammer +2 commerce/turn instead of +4 Culture/turn (compared to an existing +2/turn for a Monument or Reliquary) that I made as well,


It sounds to me like you're just going to shoot down any reasonable suggestion to actually buff the Elohim, Q. Or any suggestion I make for that matter. You're not acting in a reasonable or fair matter. You've got me saying all sorts of nasty words to my computer screen about your indefensible behavior, but I'm not going to write them down here because that would only provoke you further and give you a reason for your arrogance and condescension...

Warrens unhealthiness.

I'm going to explicitly say no to the level you provided (3). This is irrespective of whether or not your principle is correct, but to give -3 unhealth would unfairly advantage Jonas over Sheelba, to the point of making Sheelba unusable. Giving lesser levels has no effect on Jonas and only hits Sheelba. So unhealth isn't a mechanism I'd use here.

Sheelba may be the weaker of the Clan leaders, but is still just as broken for being a leader of the Clan. And having the Reliquary give -1 health, but the Warrens have no effect on health whatsoever makes absolutely no sense from a lore *OR* immersion standpoint!

At the very least give it -2 health so it's worse than a Reliquary for health. How can you possibly argue that a health penalty on the Warrens makes Sheelba unplayable, but then in the very same breath argue that a health-penalty on the Reliquary is perfectly balanced? You're talking yourself in circles here Q, and just proving that you have no intention of being fair, honest about your intentions, or unbiased...

Let's look at the principle then: That warrens need some sort of nerf. I'm not actually opposed to this in principle because, whilst I disagree that the Clan are broken from t1 (they require an enormous amount of setup) they certainly are one of the more powerful civilizations, and so a nerf is not wholly inappropriate.
However, I don't like that to be my balancing philosophy. I'd rather boost weak civs up to match the Clan then hit on them directly. I'm certainly prepared to do it with the appropriate nerf, but nerfs are a thing I prefer to limit as a rule, because they're singularly unfun.

The health-penalty on the Reliquary is a nerf on that building! How can you POSSIBLY argue that nerfs are unfun, and yet refuse to remove the one on the Elohim unique building that actually REPLACES a valuable building (Monuments) while refusing to add one on the Clan unique building (Warrens) that doesn't replace anything valuable that other factions have at all!


Your arguments are full of internal contradictions and "accidental" oversights- which is a sure sign they are faulty. You can't defend not nerfing any building and yet refuse to remove the nerf on the Elohim unique building which is often a necessity to build (for cities without religion and a need to work second-ring tiles). You can't defend the Reliquary health-penalty as being "realistic" for a completely stretched and ridiculous-sounding reason like the city "being overwhelmed by pilgrims" (there are often Reliquaries in even single Elohim city by the time the health-penalty matters: how overwhelming can the pilgrimages to any one particular city possibly be?), yet refuse the add a health-penalty to a building that the OFFICIAL Lore Compedium describes as being "full of rotting flesh" and pregnant orcs so bloated they are unable to move sitting on bare dirt floors...

And most of all, you CAN'T argue in good conscience that a health-penalty makes the leader (Sheelba) of a naturally-sprawling (thanks to the Warrens and the focus on conquest) civilization that has a gluttony of hammers to build health-buildings (thanks to the hammer-savings on building military units) and should by all means from a lore-standpoint be relatively unhealthy into an "unusable" leader/civ, while at the same time overlooking the fact that NONE of the Elohim leaders are endowed with the Expansive trait and yet you've already slapped a -1 health penalty on PRETTY MUCH ALL of their cities through the Reliquary- whereas the Warrens don't necessarily need to be built in all of the Clan's cities (certainly not their commerce-focused cities, at least)- and you have never once called the Elohim unplayable...

Please don't try and guilt or force me into making a particular decision here. I've never heard accusations of bias from anyone in the past, I don't believe yours are valid now, and I'm not going to let that push me into making a certain decision if its not right for the mod.

These were perfectly valid suggestions. Q, your response just proves you only have bad intentions...

You talk about wanting to buff other civs rather than nerf the Clan, but then refuse any reasonable suggestions to actually buff some of the weaker civs in the game (even with a laughably-useless additional +1 or +2 Culture/turn).

You speak of nerfs being "unfun" but then refuse to remove an existing nerf from the Elohim.

And worst and most indefensible of all, you talk about how giving the Clan (a civ that will AWLAYS tend to build out rather than up) a health-penalty that really will barely matter until the late-game (when victory is mostly already decided) will make one of their leaders "unusable" just because she doesn't get the same +3 health/city bonus as Joans Endain, while COMPLETELY ignoring the fact that ALL of the Elohim leaders are currently saddled with an effective -1 health/city nerf through the Reliquary (which is or should be pretty much a build-everywhere building) that is much less defensible from a lore, immersion, or balance standpoint than a health-penalty on the Warrens building that replaces nothing of value (other civs have no Warrens-analog) and the Clan only need to build in some but not all of their cities...


In short, Q, you've just talked yourself in circles while making arguments that are full of holes in order to avoid actually implementing anything I might suggest, and then have the nerve to go on and accuse ME of being the unfair or unreasonable one...


Regards,
Northstar

[Qgqqqqq]

The point of this mod-mod is to make FFH2 balanced for multiplayer, is it not? Nobody in their right mind is going to allow the selection of a map that is heavily enough water-focused for the Lanun to really shine- so they require a buff. Your reasoning against this makes absolutely no sense- you maintain a mod based on multiplayer balance, and then you argue against buffing a faction that is really only good in a very specific circumstance (extremely water-heavy map) that is realistically never going to happen in multiplayer.

Lanun are not only balanced on water heavy maps. Lanun are balanced around the maps we play here, which have water as a element that is not overpowering but is present. Maps like...EitB 25 or something. Lanun are absolutely strongly competitive on maps of this type.

I haven't read the rest of your post. And good god, just scrolling it I have another headache coming on already.

[Qgqqqqq]

The studio already produces extra culture points

Ah. I'd missed this. True. Not about to increase that number, though. It's a small change for which I've seen no balance justification and contradicts with one of my aims (to keep culture from becoming too proliferant and undermining the other sources of it). (This is totally unrelated to Cultural Victories, but to the sources of culture, which are constrained in ffh for a reason.)
Changes aren't implemented because they won't break the game. They need to be justified first.

At the very least, Sculptor's Studios should have some kind of synergy with Marble.

No it shouldn't. Marble is a rare strategic resource. Tying the price of SS to it arbitrarily makes balancing the cost of SS hard to balance. Leave aside the lore matters, as they're debatable at best and this isn't a mod in which they take precedence.

As I've said, I'm happy to cut its cost. I disagree that tying it to marble makes sense, however.

[Dreylin]

I don't think it's a spoiler to say that I think the Lanun would have been a strong choice on the 39 map that we're playing now.

[Qgqqqqq]

Reliquary changes.

I dunno, I kinda like the unhealth. Makes it kinda unique. It fits into the lore because your city is being overwhelmed by pilgrims. Besides, it's a tiny change one way or the other.
The free March promo is going to happen. It's not going up to 4cpt, either.
Thanks! Cre not doubling Reliquary's is a bug (obviously).

Wait, so the free March promotion is or is not going to happen? You yourself were entertaining the idea a while back. Now you say "It's not going up to 4 cpt, either"- which would imply you decided agaisnt that.

It is happening, 100%. I proposed it, I've heard no dissension on it, and I've already started coding it. I apologise if I caused any confusion.

It makes ABSOLUTELY NOT SENSE that a Reliquary would produce more unhealthiness from a handful of pilgrims than a Warrens full of squalor, filth, and overcrowding would for being filled with pregnant orcs (pregnancy and childbirth is one of the MOST DANGEROUS times from a health and infection standpoint in real life, by the way- trust me I'm a biologist with a specialty in virology...)

Yes. This isn't relevant. This isn't a flavor-first mod.

You also don't even address the suggestion of giving the Reliquary +1 hammer +2 commerce/turn instead of +4 Culture/turn (compared to an existing +2/turn for a Monument or Reliquary) that I made as well,

No, I didn't. Because it was in the same category as the March, and I thought they were related, so I was economical with my time.

If you want to bring them up again, I'll respond to them.

It sounds to me like you're just going to shoot down any reasonable suggestion to actually buff the Elohim, Q. Or any suggestion I make for that matter. You're not acting in a reasonable or fair matter. You've got me saying all sorts of nasty words to my computer screen about your indefensible behavior, but I'm not going to write them down here because that would only provoke you further and give you a reason for your arrogance and condescension...

Well, you're wrong. I'm not the one jumping to emotion, either in or out of thread. I made fixing the Elohim part of my portfolio for v12, and have proposed and implemented a number of measures as part of that. That I happen to not agree with your proposals is unrelated to this.

And please leave the personal insults out of this thread.

Sheelba may be the weaker of the Clan leaders, but is still just as broken for being a leader of the Clan. And having the Reliquary give -1 health, but the Warrens have no effect on health whatsoever makes absolutely no sense from a lore *OR* immersion standpoint!

At the very least give it -2 health so it's worse than a Reliquary for health. How can you possibly argue that a health penalty on the Warrens makes Sheelba unplayable, but then in the very same breath argue that a health-penalty on the Reliquary is perfectly balanced? You're talking yourself in circles here Q, and just proving that you have no intention of being fair, honest about your intentions, or unbiased...

The two are unrelated, so don't bring them up together. And anyway, the health status of both buildings are the same as they are in vanilla - and the concept of this mod as minamilistic means I won't change it without a good argument either way.

Anyway, the point is it creates asymmetric balance between the two. Sure, Sheelba of the Clan might still be better than Decius of the Malakim with those changes - but the point is, that Jonas shrugs off the health shift and will have his strength relatively unchanged, whereas Sheelba is heavily nerfed. Which just means she won't be played.

The health-penalty on the Reliquary is a nerf on that building! How can you POSSIBLY argue that nerfs are unfun, and yet refuse to remove the one on the Elohim unique building that actually REPLACES a valuable building (Monuments) while refusing to add one on the Clan unique building (Warrens) that doesn't replace anything valuable that other factions have at all!

Monuments are not valuable buildings. They're a stopgap that you want to build as few of as feasibly possible.

Again, you seem to misunderstand the concept of a nerf. A nerf is something applied by this modmod. The Reliquary has not been nerfed in this modmod from its equilibrium in canon.

Nerfs are unfun. The concept of FFH is based around unbalanced balance, where each civ has an area it is utterly overpowered in. This mod, therefore, attempts to avoid nerfing one factor, but instead seeing if we can offer enough boosts to others to bring them up to its level. An example lies in the Falamar boost to Adaptive which happened back in v8. Falamar wasn't being used, so he was boosted considerably. When that was shown to be overpowered, it was rolled back.

And again, please stop insulting me.

Your arguments are full of internal contradictions and "accidental" oversights- which is a sure sign they are faulty. You can't defend not nerfing any building and yet refuse to remove the nerf on the Elohim unique building which is often a necessity to build (for cities without religion and a need to work second-ring tiles). You can't defend the Reliquary health-penalty as being "realistic" for a completely stretched and ridiculous-sounding reason like the city "being overwhelmed by pilgrims" (there are often Reliquaries in even single Elohim city by the time the health-penalty matters: how overwhelming can the pilgrimages to any one particular city possibly be?), yet refuse the add a health-penalty to a building that the OFFICIAL Lore Compedium describes as being "full of rotting flesh" and pregnant orcs so bloated they are unable to move sitting on bare dirt floors...

This is not a lore-based mod.

Nevertheless, the way that Kael chose to implement the Reliquary makes sense, and is not inconsistent with the lore. So I'm fine with keeping it as is.

Why are you building monuments in all your cities? As the Elohim?

And most of all, you CAN'T argue in good conscience that a health-penalty makes the leader (Sheelba) of a naturally-sprawling (thanks to the Warrens and the focus on conquest) civilization that has a gluttony of hammers to build health-buildings (thanks to the hammer-savings on building military units) and should by all means from a lore-standpoint be relatively unhealthy into an "unusable" leader/civ, while at the same time overlooking the fact that NONE of the Elohim leaders are endowed with the Expansive trait and yet you've already slapped a -1 health penalty on PRETTY MUCH ALL of their cities through the Reliquary- whereas the Warrens don't necessarily need to be built in all of the Clan's cities (certainly not their commerce-focused cities, at least)- and you have never once called the Elohim unplayable...

Yes I can. The problem is Sheelba will not be picked over Jonas if you had your way. I'm never going to make a change which creates a situation where two basically balanced leaders become drastically unbalanced when compared to one another.

I don't think any civ or leader is unplayable atm, and that's something I'm proud of (even if it's mostly Sareln's work). I'd like to keep it that way, if you don't mind.

But certainly, the Elohim are a very weak civ atm. That's why v12 is going to strongly buff them.

Oh and also:

Why are you building monuments in all your cities? As the Elohim?

Please don't try and guilt or force me into making a particular decision here. I've never heard accusations of bias from anyone in the past, I don't believe yours are valid now, and I'm not going to let that push me into making a certain decision if its not right for the mod.

These were perfectly valid suggestions. Q, your response just proves you only have bad intentions...

I said your accusations of bias are unjust and unproven, not your suggestions themselves.

You talk about wanting to buff other civs rather than nerf the Clan, but then refuse any reasonable suggestions to actually buff some of the weaker civs in the game (even with a laughably-useless additional +1 or +2 Culture/turn).

You speak of nerfs being "unfun" but then refuse to remove an existing nerf from the Elohim.

And worst and most indefensible of all, you talk about how giving the Clan (a civ that will AWLAYS tend to build out rather than up) a health-penalty that really will barely matter until the late-game (when victory is mostly already decided) will make one of their leaders "unusable" just because she doesn't get the same +3 health/city bonus as Joans Endain, while COMPLETELY ignoring the fact that ALL of the Elohim leaders are currently saddled with an effective -1 health/city nerf through the Reliquary (which is or should be pretty much a build-everywhere building) that is much less defensible from a lore, immersion, or balance standpoint than a health-penalty on the Warrens building that replaces nothing of value (other civs have no Warrens-analog) and the Clan only need to build in some but not all of their cities...

Once you have masonry, a warrens is generally the first build in the majority of cities. As Sheelba, you have maybe 7 health max at the stage this is coming through (very dependable on forests or fresh water, of course). That means unhealthy at size 5. That is a tangible nerf.

And so what if the other civs have no warrens analog? A warrens is quite possibly the best building in the game. And any decent Clan player will build one in practically every city by the end-game.

The Elohim points have all been responded to.

In short, Q, you've just talked yourself in circles while making arguments that are full of holes in order to avoid actually implementing anything I might suggest, and then have the nerve to go on and accuse ME of being the unfair or unreasonable one...

You have repeatedly used this, and other posts, to attack me personally and try to accuse me of cheating, biased modding, and that I have "bad intentions". I have consistently ignored these attacks, and responded with courtesy and respect to all of your points, merely asking that you do the same.

If you don't, I think I'll start spoiling/ignoring those parts of your posts that don't contribute to the discussion.