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Qgqqqqq · December 15th, 2014, 00:55

(December 14th, 2014, 22:02)Kragroth Wrote: I don't really see it as being a deep fundamental change. The only thing it does is give you a logical out to get rid of your built / captured cities that you can't afford anymore for whatever reason. Seriously, go overexpand as a barbarian civilization before getting the right techs. You can irrevocably screw your game up to the point where you cannot recover.

Yes, you can try to raze a city you think your enemy might capture. You can also destroy your own improvements so that your enemy can't pillage them. This is a combination of the Fabian Strategy and the Scorched Earth Strategy. This has significant military precedent.

The only thing you lose is now logically a human would not allow his city to be culture bombed, s/he would just raze it instead. And of course, by doing that you allow the enemy civ to settle a new one in the same location (since the culture border will be gone) or settle a new city in a better location than the original one.

The deep fundamental change is that it stops war being ever (or almost ever) a viable option. Yes, scorched earth has military precedent (I don't recall one in which the largest cities in the realm - which is what cities represent - were razed, however) but it doesn't have one in civ, and for good reason.

I think the discussion of this is counterproductive, and that you aren't going to be able to convince me as to it's necessity, so I'm just going to unilaterally say that City Razing by Self WILL NOT be Implemented in EitB.

Let's discuss something else, people.

Qgqqqqq

Had a nice long chat to Ellimist about a bunch of current EitB issues:

From that, I'm going to propose the following changes.

Elohim:

Reliquary:
(Reminder: Reliquary's are currently a monument replacement that gives Spirit Guide, 1GPP, and -1 health.)
- Reliquary now adds the promotion "march" to units built in the city.
- Reliquary gains a priest slot.
- Reliquary cost changed from 60h->45h (?)
(Reliquary's now turn into a must-build building for pretty well every city, which also acts as an extra buff to the CRE Ethne. The march dynamic adds a new "trait" to Elohim armies, given Tolerant's lackluster affair. Priest slot and cost slash are cheeries on top to help incentivize the Elohim.)

Monk:
(Reminder: Monks are currently a 80h, 6str, 2move unit that starts with Demon Slaying 1 and Medic 1, and is available at Priesthood.)
- Monks can now upgrade to all Priests.
- Monks lose 2 moves, gain mobility promotion.
- Monks gain Drill 1 (?)
(Monks can now upgrade to Priests for 5g, bringing mobility, potentially Drill 1, and Demon Slaying with them.)

Grigori:

Adventurer Counter (?):
- Adventurer Counter mechanism merged from Extramodmod(/various).
(This divorces Adventurers from the GPP pool and creates a second counter instead, meaning that their unique flavor does not harm their economic potential.)

Infernal:

Starting Gold:
- Hyborem starts with 5 gold per average number of enemy cities divided by two (5g per extra unit gained from the "base" setup).
(This is to prevent them from being on strike if they spawn late-game.)

Sheiam:

Planar Gates:
- Planar Gates changes from 201h->150h
(Still quite expensive, this makes them more reasonable. I'd be prepared to go even lower, tbh.)

Luchuirp:

Pallens Engine:
- No longer grants Perfect Sight. Instead, grants Light to golems.
- Now requires Body mana and Alteration, instead of Sun mana and Divination.
- Cost reduced (180->120h)

Alduria Chamber:
(Reminder: requires Necromancy.)
- No longer grants Hidden. Instead, grants Heavy to golems.
- Cost reduced (180->120h)
- Now requires Death Mana
(I'd be prepared to change for any of the necromancy manas.)

(Note: This means they have a building at every mana tech save divination.)

Civics:

Conquest:
- Moves back to Warfare (from Education).

Military Strategy:
- Moves back to Military State (from Warfare).

(These techs don't have enough going for them atm, and education has too much.)

General:

Favored:
- Disciple units upgrading to other unit-types don't lose the Favored promotion. (Relevant for Savants/Lightbringers upgrading to mages.)
(Bug-fix.)

Decius:
- Decius gains the Tolerant trait.
(Decius is weak and rarely taken for all civs he works under, and this works well with his flavor.)

Religious Victory:
- Make it require the appropriate Shrine.
(Bug-fix.)

Spell Damage:
- Combat promotions lose +5 spell damage.
- Mechanism created to tie spell damage to Unit level instead.
(Combat line overshadows over upgrade lines.)
(Note:Probably delayed due to complications.)

Palaces:
- Elohim palace loses +20% War Weariness.
- Malakim palace loses +10% War Weariness.
- Luchuirp palces loses +10% War Weariness.
- Ljolsofar palace loses +X% War Weariness (?).
(All weak civs, gives an easy buff.)

Naval:
- Navy units gain +100% +50% versus Water walking units Disciple units
(Cultist nerf. Cultists have enormous utility, and as I recently realised (read: Bob explained it), the central issue is that they are more versatile than a navy, and punch above their weight - with a single cultist, even without Tsunami-ing, having odds on at least one galley on defense. This means that navy has more of a place in the game, without nerfing the intended function of Cultists (water collateral).)

Control Whole Team:
- Merge the Control Whole Team option from Magistermodmod.
(Allows you to control the whole team, rather than giving up to an AI. Probably won't make it into v12.)

Goblin Archers:
- Change strength from 3/5 to 2/4 (with poison, same as normal archers).

Multiple Production (???):
- Merge the Multiple Production Mod.
(I'm nowhere near convinced I want this in - in fact, it won't go in for v12 - but I want to mantain discussion on it.)

There, that should be enough to chew on for a while.

Kragroth

Just a note, when you create v1.12 make sure it creates two folders: One named Erebus in the Balance and another one named Erebus in the Balance v1.12 . This will help get over the confusion experienced by Northstar and prevent extra instructions and steps to copy a folder and rename it.

All future PBEM games should use the folder with the version number (Erebus in the Balance v11.1, etc.) to preserve the games being overwritten (EITB XXXVI uses the base Erebus in the Balance, but that should probably be changed).

Reliquary giving a Priest Slot in a Addition is much needed. Now, I really want to build them as Elohim. March is cool but now it gives another side effect that now Mounted and Recon Units (which have a hard time getting March) will now have March.

The Shieam stll have problems because the Planar Gate is still a double build mechanic. Build a Planar Gate and a Bathhouse and get stuff. Build a Planar Gate and a Carnival and get stuff. As such if they actually go for these flavorful Planar Gate units they've slowed themselves down militarily compared to other civilizations. I don't know about you but I don't like to build an Archery Range and a Hunting Lodge and a Mage Guild and a Training Yard all in the same city. I'd rather build one required building to make units in one city and build another unit type maker in another city. But the Planar Gate Mechanic is trying to get me to do the former.

Perhaps a radical suggestion, but do we really need Planar Gates? Why not let the Sheiam build these units with the base buildings only (Carnival for Chaos Marauder and Bathhouse for Succubus for example)? At least it would take away some of the double build penalty although Shieam still have their problem by being just a mainly Pyre Zombies Civilization.

A couple of other notes:

We still need the block non core events option.

The Arcane Trait has always lacked oomph. Maybe it'd be possible to just roll in Arcane to Philosophical. We don't have a separate Divine trait to spiritual. Why do we need a separate Arcane trait from Philosophical? At the very least Arcane should improve Alchemy labs and make it cheaper to upgrade adepts.

Thematically Dain vs Tebryn should be cool but Tebryn just sucks.

Mardoc · January 16th, 2015, 11:42

Aside from the things I mention below, I like the proposed changes, or am indifferent to them.

Quote:(Monks can now upgrade to Priests for 5g, bringing mobility, potentially Drill 1, and Demon Slaying with them.)

Isn't this basically the same mechanic that the Malakim have with Lightbringers? Except delayed and restricted? It gives a bonus that's basically identical to Spiritual, too: mobility plus a promotion or two.

What about making Monks actually worth having for their own sake? Boost their strength, or give them something unique. One possible inspired by their D&D role: make them Magic Immune.

Quote:Spell Damage:
- Combat promotions lose +5 spell damage.
- Mechanism created to tie spell damage to Unit level instead.
(Combat line overshadows over upgrade lines.)
(Note:Probably delayed due to complications.)

Strongly disagree here. Right now, you've got a tradeoff between versatility and power. You're proposing that there be no tradeoff. There'd be literally no reason to promote a mage unit to Combat. Maybe sometimes promote an adept to help farm barbs to level 4, but that's all.

Why remove a tradeoff? Aren't they basically the point of playing?

Quote:Palaces:
(All weak civs, gives an easy buff.)

Weak? You know they've all won games or come in 2nd, don't you?

Quote:- Navy units gain +100% versus Water walking units (?).
(Cultist nerf. Cultists have enormous utility, and as I recently realised (read: Bob explained it), the central issue is that they are more versatile than a navy, and punch above their weight - with a single cultist, even without Tsunami-ing, having odds on at least one galley on defense. This means that navy has more of a place in the game, without nerfing the intended function of Cultists (water collateral).)

Can you make it vs Cultists only? It feels weird to have Drowns become weak as well. They're already hard to find a good use for.

Quote:Goblin Archers:
- Change strength from 3/5 to 2/4 (with poison, same as normal archers).

If you do that, you should also remove the code that makes them Weak in barb cities.

(January 16th, 2015, 06:35)Kragroth Wrote: Just a note, when you create v1.12 make sure it creates two folders: One named Erebus in the Balance and another one named Erebus in the Balance v1.12 . This will help get over the confusion experienced by Northstar and prevent extra instructions and steps to copy a folder and rename it.

Or, even better, if you could find the dependencies and eliminate the base folder requirement entirely, that'd be appreciated!

Quote:Perhaps a radical suggestion, but do we really need Planar Gates? Why not let the Sheiam build these units with the base buildings only (Carnival for Chaos Marauder and Bathhouse for Succubus for example)? At least it would take away some of the double build penalty although Shieam still have their problem by being just a mainly Pyre Zombies Civilization.

I like this idea, except for one side effect. I feel like that removes most of their reason to boost the Armageddon Counter. If we can sneak that back in through another route, I could see a case for it. Maybe make Planar Gates really cheap (like 10h), but also really scaled to AC? So the cost of getting your free units is in the Elegy, rather than in the Gates themselves?

Quote:The Arcane Trait has always lacked oomph.

I disagree here. It's nearly impossible to make a mage-based army without it, in time to matter. But...

Quote: At the very least Arcane should improve Alchemy labs

I like this suggestion anyway.

#35 · January 16th, 2015, 12:09

I agree with everything Mardoc wrote, except I do like Planar Gates.

I have zero interest in ever playing a game with the Multiple Production mod, but if you include it solely as a game option, that's fine.

Not a fan of dropping Monks down to 1 move- that slightly nerfs Thessalonica, who otherwise can get base 3-move Monks via Spiritual (which are pretty neat).

Didn't you already incorporate the change to Gobbo Archers in v11.1?

Qgqqqqq · January 16th, 2015, 15:35

(January 16th, 2015, 06:35)Kragroth Wrote: Just a note, when you create v1.12 make sure it creates two folders: One named Erebus in the Balance and another one named Erebus in the Balance v1.12 . This will help get over the confusion experienced by Northstar and prevent extra instructions and steps to copy a folder and rename it.

All future PBEM games should use the folder with the version number (Erebus in the Balance v11.1, etc.) to preserve the games being overwritten (EITB XXXVI uses the base Erebus in the Balance, but that should probably be changed).

I'll take that under consideration.

Quote:March is cool but now it gives another side effect that now Mounted and Recon Units (which have a hard time getting March) will now have March.

March is difficult to get for most unit types, that is what makes it a change for the Elohim, allowing them to build a force which heals in motion. (Intended behaviour.)

Quote:The Shieam stll have problems because the Planar Gate is still a double build mechanic. Build a Planar Gate and a Bathhouse and get stuff. Build a Planar Gate and a Carnival and get stuff. As such if they actually go for these flavorful Planar Gate units they've slowed themselves down militarily compared to other civilizations. I don't know about you but I don't like to build an Archery Range and a Hunting Lodge and a Mage Guild and a Training Yard all in the same city. I'd rather build one required building to make units in one city and build another unit type maker in another city. But the Planar Gate Mechanic is trying to get me to do the former.

Perhaps a radical suggestion, but do we really need Planar Gates? Why not let the Sheiam build these units with the base buildings only (Carnival for Chaos Marauder and Bathhouse for Succubus for example)? At least it would take away some of the double build penalty although Shieam still have their problem by being just a mainly Pyre Zombies Civilization.

I get what you mean, but I disagree that they need to build multiple buildings. In general, one builds a single booster-building alongside the PG, not multiples. Anyway, whilst I'd be prepared to drop the cost of PG considerably (to 100 or even 50h), I'm not prepared to eliminate it entirely.

I don't think they're just the PZ civ anymore, not with Succubi, Mobius Witch's, Manticores, and spawning units. They're as much the PZ civ as Balseraph are puppets, or Illian are PoW - it's a strong and substantial part of their civ, but it's not the be-all or end-all.

Quote:The Arcane Trait has always lacked oomph. Maybe it'd be possible to just roll in Arcane to Philosophical. We don't have a separate Divine trait to spiritual. Why do we need a separate Arcane trait from Philosophical? At the very least Arcane should improve Alchemy labs and make it cheaper to upgrade adepts.

Thematically Dain vs Tebryn should be cool but Tebryn just sucks.

That's a matter of PHI vs. SUM (which ought to be fixed...) not ARC vs. PHI. IMO, ARC is a decent trait, and actually stronger than PHI. They won't be being combined - if anything, PHI would be boosted.

I can see my way to giving ARC cheap AL, if you think it needs it.

(January 16th, 2015, 11:42)Mardoc Wrote: Aside from the things I mention below, I like the proposed changes, or am indifferent to them.

Quote:(Monks can now upgrade to Priests for 5g, bringing mobility, potentially Drill 1, and Demon Slaying with them.)
Isn't this basically the same mechanic that the Malakim have with Lightbringers? Except delayed and restricted? It gives a bonus that's basically identical to Spiritual, too: mobility plus a promotion or two.

What about making Monks actually worth having for their own sake? Boost their strength, or give them something unique. One possible inspired by their D&D role: make them Magic Immune.

Yes, it is quite similar (although what came to mind was Freaks). However, IMO, it's significantly different as to be relevant, and to not replace SPI wholly. Lightbringers basically bring a bunch of xp, and can promote to anything for a substantial gold and minimal hammer cost. Monks, OTOH, can promote to Priests for a small gold and large hammer cost and bring mobility plus Drill.

This leaves SPI open for me in that Elohim have very strong synergy with disciple line, so leaving SPI as their only way of doing it means Thessalonica is the only one anyone's ever going to choose; but giving Potent to all units (as well as normal benefits of SPI) still remains strong enough because Elohim will be going disciple regardless, even if some of the mechanisms are mimiced.

I would be open, however, to giving them a different boost. Magic Immune is...an option, although it is a substantial change. I'd be more open to some form of Magic Resistance.

Quote:Spell Damage:
- Combat promotions lose +5 spell damage.
- Mechanism created to tie spell damage to Unit level instead.
(Combat line overshadows over upgrade lines.)
(Note:Probably delayed due to complications.)

Strongly disagree here. Right now, you've got a tradeoff between versatility and power. You're proposing that there be no tradeoff. There'd be literally no reason to promote a mage unit to Combat. Maybe sometimes promote an adept to help farm barbs to level 4, but that's all.

Why remove a tradeoff? Aren't they basically the point of playing?[/quote]

Oops. I was thinking more of Ritualists/Cultists, for whom the only logical route is Combat. You're right, though, that it wouldn't work for mages. Strike that one.

Quote:Can you make it vs Cultists only? It feels weird to have Drowns become weak as well. They're already hard to find a good use for.

Yeah, I was thinking that as I was writing it. I'm not sure how to code it, but if possible I will.

Quote:If you do that, you should also remove the code that makes them Weak in barb cities.

Different units. Barb cities make orc archers, not Goblin ones.

Quote:I like this idea, except for one side effect. I feel like that removes most of their reason to boost the Armageddon Counter. If we can sneak that back in through another route, I could see a case for it. Maybe make Planar Gates really cheap (like 10h), but also really scaled to AC? So the cost of getting your free units is in the Elegy, rather than in the Gates themselves?

I can't see their cost going that low. Like I said, I don't want to remove PG entirely, though.

(January 16th, 2015, 12:09)Bobchillingworth Wrote: Not a fan of dropping Monks down to 1 move- that slightly nerfs Thessalonica, who otherwise can get base 3-move Monks via Spiritual (which are pretty neat).

Covered above. I suppose I could give them Mob II, though...(like THAT wouldn't be overpowered lol

Quote:Didn't you already incorporate the change to Gobbo Archers in v11.1?

Possibly? I'll check.

Anyway, good feedback all, keep it coming smile

Dreylin · January 16th, 2015, 15:57

(January 16th, 2015, 15:35)Qgqqqqq Wrote:
Quote:Can you make it vs Cultists only? It feels weird to have Drowns become weak as well. They're already hard to find a good use for.

Yeah, I was thinking that as I was writing it. I'm not sure how to code it, but if possible I will.

Drown are Melee & Cultists are Disciples, right; can that be used to distinguish?

Qgqqqqq · January 16th, 2015, 16:04

Truth. Will be a bit of an arbitrary tag for everything else, but should work.

Kragroth · January 16th, 2015, 16:13

(January 16th, 2015, 16:04)Qgqqqqq Wrote: Truth. Will be a bit of an arbitrary tag for everything else, but should work.

The problem is still TsunamI. Cultists can still tsunami inland lakes which I can't build cities in. Even if I did build next to an inland lake I have to build a tireme there?

Mardoc · January 16th, 2015, 16:32

I can see the point of buffing Sheaim in a more measured fashion, sure. If they turn out to still be weak there's always v13.

For vs. Cultists - I would suggest taking your inspiration for however BtS chariots get their boost vs axes but not swords, or Ships of the Line vs Frigates but not other ships. Or contrawise, invent a -50% vs ships promotion for the Cultists on birth.

A thought on the Malakim: is it possible to make the lightbringer standalone instead of a scout replacement? They're too expensive to want to build early as actual scouts.

(January 16th, 2015, 16:13)Kragroth Wrote: The problem is still TsunamI. Cultists can still tsunami inland lakes which I can't build cities in. Even if I did build next to an inland lake I have to build a tireme there?

Control your territory. It's not like they can just teleport to the lake. If you can't keep the Cultist from getting to the lake, then you're vulnerable to anything else the enemy brings anyway. If you nerf OO too much, then there's no point in ever using it.

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