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EitB v12 Wishlist/Progress

I would be wary of assuming that people don't pick the Grigori much because they're weak (unsure about that- Thoth did win as Cassiel in one of their few games), as opposed to ignoring them because they're boring (which they really are).


Allowing them to spam Adventurers and other great people really strikes me as asking for trouble. I think their two biggest issues are:


1. They have a terrible happy cap, which makes their viability depend far too much on the mapmaker's generosity and game difficulty. Illians don't have it as bad thanks to Charismatic and Enchantment mana (although I think Grigs have Enchantment as well?) Making one or two of their UB available at an earlier tech, possibly cheaper and packing a good happiness bonus could resolve the issue.


2. Outside of the Adventurer unit, they're really dull. Medics are good units, but Dragonslayers are just fluffy Champs and their Druid replacements are worthless due to not actually learning any spells (IIRC), plus being at an otherwise useless tech unless Cassiel is attempting to win via Altar. Making Dragonslayers sexier should help. Could also / instead implement a civ-wide minor trait, but idk what. Perhaps +1 beaker/gold/hammer/food from any structure that already provides at least 2.

I haven't read Thoth's ability and I don't the capability of Grigori winning games. But I do believe that they are generally an inferior choice compared to other civ options

1. Grigori Adventurers have a small niche not filled by other civs / religions and are often worse than potential counterparts

So what Niche do adventurers fill in? Let's Discuss:

a. Tier One: There's no civ with a Warrior or Scout Hero, so they have an edge here. Is this significant? Not a whole lot I'd say. Potentially a Warrior Hero can conquer cities but Human opponents aren't as dumb as AI ones. A few dedicated sacrificial units or an unlucky attack and the Hero is finished.

b. Tier Two: There's the Archer, Axeman, Horseman, Hunter, and Adept

We already have Axeman Hero Equivalent of Rantine and an Archer Hero Equivalent with Gilden Silveric. Gilden Silveric is 6/6 which is better than an Archer 3/5.

c. Tier 2.5: There's the Religious Heroes, Bambur, Saverous, Kithra, Valin, and Rosier. These can potentially be faster to get than Tier 3 Units. These are all better than what the Grigori could get and any non-Agnostic Civ can get these. If I wanted a mounted hero I'd go for Kithra, Valin, or Rosier. All of these 3 are better than horse archers. Bambur and Saverous are better than Champions

Tier 3: Rangers, Assassins, Champions, Sorcerors, Horse Archers, Chariots

There's no Ranger or Chariot heroes but Chariots are similar enough to Horse Archers so it's really rangers are the difference. The Assassin Heroes Rathus Demora and Alkazan are both better than base Assassins. Wilboman and Maros are both better than base Champions. The Tier 2.5 mounted religious heroes are better than horse archers. Gibbon Goetia is a better unit than a base Sorceror at the same tech.

And so on and so forth. Basically, there are a few unit types that a Grigori hero could cover that regular units would not, but that edge seems very slight. Moreover there are several cases where Grigori Heroes are flat out weaker than comparative Civilization or Religious Heroes. Yes, there's some flexibility with Grigori Heroes, I could get Two Archer Heroes instead of a GIlden Silveric and a Kithra, but why bother?

2. Marathon Rules, Quick Drools

Heroes gain 1 xp per turn regardless of turn speed. This is best on Marathon and worst on Quick. To really hammer in their advantage vs. other Heroes they have to have enough time to grow before other civs can tech and build up an appropriate defense. Even when they do, the Grigori adventurer has had more time to gain xp and can upgrade to an appropriately better unit. This is best done by Warrior Heroes and the Mechanic has problems after that

On Quick, Grigori have problems. Their heroes take a while to grow and the time difference between when a Grigori hero is born vs. a rival civ's hero is built isn't that much.

3. No Shrine of the Champion

Dead Adventurer Heroes generate no Shrine of the Champion but a dead Civ Hero will. This is a significant advantage of Clan of Embers and Ljosalfar especially.

4. Adventurers come from Dungeons

A more minor map situational point, but nonetheless Adventurers can pop out from dungeons. The Grigori's main schtick is so easily duplicated by every other Civ.

5. Great People or Adventurers, not really both: Philo Trait Hampered

So Grigori are Philosophical, but don't really benefit from it fully. If you want as many adventurers as possible then you don't want sages, merchants, etc. and can't benefit from them or risk getting a great person you don't want. If you want great people, then by getting them you aren't getting adventurers.

So really they get shafted in this regard.

So perhaps weak is the wrong word, but the Grigori have problems with Quick speed which is what we usually play and they usually have to choose between great people or adventurers. Moreover, Grigori effectively lose about one third or more of the game's options due to their Agnostic Trait and that really hurts their versatility.

Separating Adventurer GPP from Other GPP is a vital first step for Grigori.

Quote:2. Marathon Rules, Quick Drools

Heroes gain 1 xp per turn regardless of turn speed. This is best on Marathon and worst on Quick. To really hammer in their advantage vs. other Heroes they have to have enough time to grow before other civs can tech and build up an appropriate defense. Even when they do, the Grigori adventurer has had more time to gain xp and can upgrade to an appropriately better unit. This is best done by Warrior Heroes and the Mechanic has problems after that

On Quick, Grigori have problems. Their heroes take a while to grow and the time difference between when a Grigori hero is born vs. a rival civ's hero is built isn't that much.

Quickly: this is false. Sareln designed a mechanism that alters xp gain by game speed. Every two turns on quick a hero will get 3xp.

Otherwise, analysis is good. I'm not seeing any howls of anger at Adventurer Counter, so I plan to do that.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.


Naval:
- Galleys and Tiremes can no longer traverse ocean post-Astronomy
- Workboats can traverse ocean post-Astronomy


Elohim:

Chancel of Guardians:

- Chance of getting Defensive increased to 100% (was 20%). (?)


Malakim:

Citadel of Light:

- Now grants the Perfect Sight promotion. (???)
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.


(January 18th, 2015, 02:01)Qgqqqqq Wrote: Naval:
- Galleys and Tiremes can no longer traverse ocean post-Astronomy
- Workboats can traverse ocean post-Astronomy


Elohim:

Chancel of Guardians:

- Chance of getting Defensive increased to 100% (was 20%). (?)


Malakim:

Citadel of Light:

- Now grants the Perfect Sight promotion. (???)

My Galleys and Tiremes can't travel the Ocean even with Astronomy. How are yours doing that? Is it really necessary for workboats to be able to do that?

You would change it from chance of getting defensive to grants the defensive promotion. I suppose this promotion is ok for Elohim and Flavorful

Citadel of light is probably ok with Perfect Sight although I wonder if this takes away from the Emperyean stuff?

I'll post a pic from a Dovellio game I played where that came up.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.


Can we get the UI Vaults report updated with the new thresholds? i.e. the one that sits next to the treasury on the main screen.

Hmm? Could you post a screenshot?

The civilopedia should be correct in regards to this, but there may be other game-text not updated.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.


From a completely random turn from a completely random game with a single city, honest! bang


Not sure about the Civilopedia; I had a look and couldn't find an entry so I went back to the changelog.

On that subject, any chance of a consolidated changelog from "base" FFH2?

There's one included in the download which ought to be correct.

Spoilered for Bob only:

[Image: Screenshot%202015-01-21%2013.16.52.png]

186g = Stocked for one city seems appropriate.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.




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