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EitB v12 Wishlist/Progress

Could I get some comments from this by people other than Tasunke, please?
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.


(February 12th, 2015, 06:43)Qgqqqqq Wrote: Could I get some comments from this by people other than Tasunke, please?

Q. Come on man.

As far as the Dragon's Hoard is concerned, I suppose Mithril, Enchantment Mana, and Gems (as a unit) would make it worthwhile ...

or perhaps reduce its culture to 2 and give it +100% culture ... a decent boost (especially if combined with the above). Could switch out Mithril for, say, Iron, if Mithril seems too much.

Also, while infinite disciples of Acheron are fine in theory, I feel as though the Unitclass Sons of Inferno should be capped at 4,5,or 6. Not only to make the number of fire elementals slightly less rediculous in longer games, but also to prevent 'abuse'.

I think it would be interesting if BARBARIANS ONLY could build lesser fire drakes w/ the Dragon's Hoard as the Building Req. This would have the EFFECT of letting Acheron 'spawn' lesser drakes. Give it a tech requirement so that it isn't unbalanced. Perhaps Animal Handling or Feral Bond, depending on how strong u want to make them. It would be fun seeing Barbarian units using Roar or Dragon Breath. (Maybe just Dragon Breath), and as beast units there is the off-chance they might become capturable.

(which leads me to ponder moving the capture beast promotion to Feral Bond, and allow for Beast'masters' to once again start with the promo ... perhaps)

(February 12th, 2015, 06:43)Qgqqqqq Wrote: Could I get some comments from this by people other than Tasunke, please?

Which part do you want comments on?

Qgqqqqq Wrote:Naval units gain +50% vs. Disciple units (Mod Notes: hard-coded in.)
Conquest Civic: Moves back to Warfare (from Education).
Military Strategy: Moves back to Military State (from Warfare).
Decius: Decius gains the Tolerant trait.
Summer Palace: Pedia Background and Strategy Entries updated/filled in.
Winter Palace: Pedia Background and Strategy Entries updated/filled in.

I like all of them except the first one. That's to nerf Cultists? Doesn't seem to me that they need to nerfed. They're awesome but completely situational, which is how things should be. It doesn't bother me that if you want to fight Cultists without Cultists of your own, you need to invest more heavily in Naval techs.

Qgqqqqq Wrote:1. Why don't we give Abashi the Black Dragon the hero promo? It's a slight buff, but he's never been built before anyway, and it gives the Sheaim a proper hero of their own, allowing Resurrection, SotC and similar mechanics to work better. I'm not married to the idea, but I don't see any problems with it.

In favor. Eurabatres too. Those are both endgame super-units, so they should be totally awesome.

Quote:2. Champions are quite expensive, compared to iron axes.

3. Queen of the Line's.

4. Actually, looking at that, I think Frigates still come too early. I think they should go back to Astronomy (from Optics).

No opinion.

Quote:5. Dragons Horde. For some reason or another we've been enabling Acheron again these days. I think ol' Red is balanced, I think his minions are balanced. But I don't think the Horde itself is. The Horde is unbalanced in two ways:
I. It gives too much culture.
II. It gives too little reward.

Agreed on both counts.

Is it possible to have two versions of the Horde, one for barbs and one for players? Could reduce culture granted by the first, add Mithril to the second without giving it to the barbs?

Also, general thought (which I think probably has been discussed to death, but I want to bring up again): I think that more than anything in this game, what needs rebalancing is tile improvements. Even with Sareln's changes, Aristograrianism is almost always the best choice, and that's boring. I rarely give thought to tile improvements in most of my games: if it's a hill I put a mine on it, if not I put a farm on it.

More specific thoughts:

1) I think Agrarianism is fine; the culprit is Aristocracy. It's usually far preferable to other civics in the same category, even civics which are unlocked much later in the tech tree. And it means you don't have to worry about where to get commerce, but worrying about where to get commerce should be part of the fun.

Possible solutions:
a) [Radical] Make Aristocracy do something completely different (having nothing to do with farms).
b) Make Aristocracy more of a late game tech (at Feudalism, maybe?). Probably we'd want to add something to boost Code of Laws, in that case.

2) Workshops are terrible for everyone except Hyborem.

Possible solutions:
a) Remove the -1 food from workshops. Lower the +2 hammers from Guilds to +1 hammer (so they're not ridiculous late-game).
b) Workshops unlocked at Crafting or Masonry, giving +1H+1C-1F as usual. Then unlock an extra +1H at Construction, Smelting, and Guilds.

I also wouldn't mind making Windmills available earlier, so you have some viable alternatives to Mines on hilly tiles.
Maybe at Mathematics instead of Engineering? I'm not sure if Mathematics needs a boost... Gambling Houses are pretty useful buildings in some situations, completely useless in others.

Oh... and I think Extort needs a major nerf. Maybe twice as much unhappiness (duration-wise) and half as much gold, or something like that.

(February 12th, 2015, 07:04)Kragroth Wrote:
(February 12th, 2015, 06:43)Qgqqqqq Wrote: Could I get some comments from this by people other than Tasunke, please?
Q. Come on man.

Y'know, you two just completely don't get each other. It's painful to watch at times, but at least it's both ways (I guess that's a good thing?)

Anyway, Tasunke is clearly impassioned about fixing the Luannotar (* side note, I love how these get spelled differently every time the name is used - usually multiple different ways in each post ... not that I have any idea how to spell it either!) while Q has a fairly neutral opinion on the matter so he'd like to try to build some consensus.

Personally I have no idea, but Tasunke's arguments make sense and the changes are minimal compared to the re-jigging options. Seems like it would be a worthwhile change to try.

I definitely like the Khazad Vaults bar; yes there's already a UI indication of what level they're at, but it doesn't include a measure of closeness to the thresholds - and tbh it's a pain to check in the 'pedia or elsewhere to remind of those thresholds. I definitely think this should be included.

For World spells, would it be in place for all civs or just the casting civ? Also, would it only be visible while the spell is active, or at all times? If it was visible to all civs, but only for the duration of the spell then I think I'd support it. Visible all the time means it would be clutter for the majority of the game, and only visible to the casting civ limits the utility.

Dragon's Hoard - low culture + multiplier seems reasonable, although would that interact too strongly with the Lyre as a movable source of Culture? Mithril seems strong, but then again you still have to get the right tech to have Weapons, don't you? In which case it's not overly broken. Whomever suggested Enchantment Mana I think had a nice thematic idea; there's not another "unique" source of Enchantment, is there?

I'm not sure how to best change the Luonatar, but they are almost totally worthless at present. I'm not sure that Fanaticism is a very good tech for them either though, since it doesn't really give the Grigori any benefits otherwise. Even as units they're kind of lacking in direction, but I guess they're reasonably powerful at least in terms of base strength.



I'm neutral on the other proposed changes, except I def. support the late-game naval adjustments. Make sure that Queens of the Line don't accidentally obsolete Galleons (as in, you can no longer build any), I believe Ellimist said that happened to his team in the Perpy PBEM.



RE: HK's changes to Aristocracy, I'm not sure it really needs a nerf. But going with his "solution b", if implemented I'd like to see windmills made available significantly earlier as well, and perhaps correspondingly buffed. Right now you really have either the cottage or aristofarm economies; BTS-styled production economies are only viable very late in the game, and specialist economies are vastly inferior for anyone who isn't the Infernal or maybe Sidar. If the Aristofarm economy is removed, there needs to be a viable alternative to cottages to replace it. Even if it isn't altered (my preference), I'd be happy seeing a third economy emerge.

(February 12th, 2015, 07:04)Kragroth Wrote:
(February 12th, 2015, 06:43)Qgqqqqq Wrote: Could I get some comments from this by people other than Tasunke, please?

Q. Come on man.

What?

Tasunke has very specific views on this, especially as a dev on his own mod. I'm interested in outside perspectives.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.


HK, the cultists things was actually proposed here a while back (those are all changes I felt set in stone enough to implement). My reasoning was this:
Quote:Navy units gain +100% versus Water walking units (?).
(Cultist nerf. Cultists have enormous utility, and as I recently realised (read: Bob explained it), the central issue is that they are more versatile than a navy, and punch above their weight - with a single cultist, even without Tsunami-ing, having odds on at least one galley on defense. This means that navy has more of a place in the game, without nerfing the intended function of Cultists (water collateral).)

I drew it back to +50% to make it less cut and dried. Currently, a cultist can murder a galley on the attack (with tsunami), but they don't inherently win defensively.

Quote:In favor. Eurabatres too. Those are both endgame super-units, so they should be totally awesome.

If I give it to Eurabates, it goes to Drifa as well. I was a bit less certain on that, simply because they each have heroic units - I doubt it will break anything, but the necessity is less there.

Quote:Is it possible to have two versions of the Horde, one for barbs and one for players? Could reduce culture granted by the first, add Mithril to the second without giving it to the barbs?

Not easily, is the simple answer. It's important to remember, though, that Mithril only affect Champion-plus units, so it wouldn't matter much for barbs. The main issue is if everyone is okay with such a pan-civilization boost being available at Dragon's Horde - especially given Mithril isn't that strong a line, anyway.

Re:Aristocracy. I'm not sure I want to get rid of it entirely/nerf it so heavily. As is, I think there's to reasonably equal economic options for civs to pursue. Crush Aristocracy, and it hurts some civs (Calabim, for example) more than others.
Besides which, it's on many levels integral to the mod. Currently I feel like EitB offers more options economy-wise, alter that, and we offer different ones to base. That's a path I'm...cautious of, ro say the least.

I like the workshops idea, particularly the +1 at construction. One idea that other mods do is to put it at a civic (apprenticeship). Any thoughts there?

I'd be happy to put windmills even earlier than that, tbh. Construction? Archery?

Quote:(* side note, I love how these get spelled differently every time the name is used - usually multiple different ways in each post ... not that I have any idea how to spell it either!)
lol
Correct spelling is Luonnator, as I found out whilst looking them up. Didn't stop me messing it up again, though.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.


(February 12th, 2015, 14:35)Bobchillingworth Wrote: I'm not sure that Fanaticism is a very good tech for them either though, since it doesn't really give the Grigori any benefits otherwise.

That seems like an argument in favor of Fanaticism, rather than against. (If you're worried that it's not enough to make the detour appealing, you could buff the unit.)

Quote:Right now you really have either the cottage or aristofarm economies;

I think here's where we disagree. I feel like right now you have only the aristofarm economy, with a few civs having viable alternatives (cottages for the elves and Kurios, water for the Lanun).

Quote:If the Aristofarm economy is removed, there needs to be a viable alternative to cottages to replace it. Even if it isn't altered (my preference), I'd be happy seeing a third economy emerge.

Agreed on this. But I think we should be thinking of things that are on par with what the cottage economy gives you now, rather than what the aristofarm economy gives now.

Boosted workshops and earlier windmills would both help, here.

Another thought: trade route economy. Add the free trade route back to Currency. Add "+1 trade route", or trade route multipliers, to a few more buildings. Make those buildings a little cheaper. Lots of little changes across the board could make trade routes a more significant factor in the game.



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