[NO PLAYERS] PBEM 7 Map Making & Lurkers

[rho21]

I'm not sure I think this is a good idea, but I thought I'd throw it out there for consideration:

How about leaving the team as competitive as possible? Not that it feels deserved, but that it will make for a better and more interesting game if they aren't just overrun in short order. I'm not suggesting that the new-bought archers should remain (effectively blunting the incoming attack), but what about the other ill-gotten gains?

The obvious concern would be if that team went on to win, but frankly it doesn't seem likely from here anyway.

I'd be tempted to consult the other teams, actually. Ask them where on the scale of punitive measures <-> as close to fair as possible <-> as close to competitive as possible they would like the resolution of the problem to fall.


On the matter of implementing a fix, would it be a plausible option to just roll the game back a couple of turns to before the most recent batch of purchases? Would keep things much simpler than specifying the purchase and destruction of units, etc. On the other hand, might cause difficulties with PYDT.

[oledavy]

I think the impending advantage that Woden and Chevalier (and possible Sulla/Singaboy) are about to get from the collapse of the Khmer/Kongo team is ultimately what makes this unplayable. 

We're bad about doing this as a site, but Japper007 and MikeForAll really should not have been allowed to participate in this game against relative 'vets.' They were basically DoA and everyone knew it. The cheating ultimately stemmed from them knowing it. They were an unbalancing presence in the game before the first turn was played. 

So, you either bust them down with punishments and make the situation unplayable, or you let them keep their ill-gotten gains and they stay barely competitive, but the game forever tarnished by cheating. You can't undo idiotic moves like that dry city settle, for example. 

Moreover, due to the fact that you need to have all the DLC civs, you need to be unspoiled, and you'd be taking over a civ to basically get whacked like a pinata by other teams for free shit means that its going to be near impossible to get replacements for MikeForAll and Japper007. For as much of an impact as they're going to have on the rest of the game, you might as well replace them with an AI. They're already going to already be abused in a fashion similar to one.

I can see letting Japper007 play on, though I am not entirely satisfied with his explanation. But MikeForAll needs to leave. No personal ill will against the guy, but nobody is going to want to play in a game with him ever again. What's the point of making him play this out, even if players are comfortable with that? Let's not prolong this and just cut him off clean. He can just make a new account and come back in a couple months as entirely different user if he really wants to play Civ6 here anyway. 

This game is only 40 turns old, I'll say it again, it needs to just be killed.

[suboptimal]

We're bad about doing this as a site, but Japper007 and MikeForAll really should not have been allowed to participate in this game against relative 'vets.'

Speaking as a newbie who has run headfirst into the 'vets' I think that viewpoint, at best, is a slippery slope and, at worst, seems to run counter to the expressed ideals of the community.

[Old Harry]

. But MikeForAll needs to leave. No personal ill will against the guy, but nobody is going to want to play in a game with him ever again. What's the point of making him play this out, even if players are comfortable with that? Let's not prolong this and just cut him off clean. He can just make a new account and come back in a couple months as entirely different user if he really wants to play Civ6 here anyway. 

The bolded section seems like it argues the opposite to the rest of this paragraph. Better to have him play on as an account that will be checked up on than go create a new one.

Also it'd be a shame for Cornflakes' brilliant map not to get fully used...

[Brian Shanahan]

. But MikeForAll needs to leave. No personal ill will against the guy, but nobody is going to want to play in a game with him ever again. What's the point of making him play this out, even if players are comfortable with that? Let's not prolong this and just cut him off clean. He can just make a new account and come back in a couple months as entirely different user if he really wants to play Civ6 here anyway. 

The bolded section seems like it argues the opposite to the rest of this paragraph. Better to have him play on as an account that will be checked up on than go create a new one.

Also it'd be a shame for Cornflakes' brilliant map not to get fully used...

We can IP ban him, which would be my personal option if I were in any way responsible on the site.

[Cornflakes]

I agree that the Japper/Mike team was the weakest from the get go, and a long-term power vaccum, but such is the nature of all games.

I do not think rolling back the turns is a good idea. For one thing the logistics of it are difficult with PYDT, for another they are 2-3 turns beyond it now which would require re-playing multiple turns. Also the latest instance with the archer purchases is the easiest to fix (simply delete the units)

I don't think that the other teams should be consulted as to the extent of the sanctions. They do not have the full picture and can't meaningfully add to the discussion. Khmer will be left in no worse position after the above proposed sanctions than they would have been without the ill-gotten gold. All their early production went into 2 GProphet projects, then an aggressive plant with only 2 total warriors and 1 slinger. That is where the current weakness comes from.

Consider that they also have a *free* monument + granary which were purchased with ill-gotten gold at the same time as the shrine [I had previously forgotten about these, but I did verify]. I feel that anything less than the above sanctions would be an unjust punishment to CMF/Woden. In fact if anything I think that to be even more "fair" an additional sanction in the form of must wait at least 10 turns after discovering Political Philosophy to swap government out of Chiefdom is warranted to compensate for the monument purchase. The monument was purchased more than 20 turns ago now and by the time they reach PP it will have probably sped it up by those 10 turns.

I personally would be willing to take over the Khmer with the above [now 4] proposed sanctions in place. However I am completely and utterly spoiled on this game ... about as spoiled as anyone could possibly be.

[Alhambram]

Cornflakes, regarding that Sulla's magically healing warrior at turn 42, is that also due fiddling with save by Mike? Or is that caused by other bug?

[Brian Shanahan]

I think looking at it trying not to be influenced by emotion, at the very least neither of Khmer or Kongo should be allowed any benefit at all from Jesuit Education, as they won it by cheating, and cheating alone.

Therefore the minimum penalty should be "neither team is allowed to purchase anything but normally allowed religious purchases with faith". Yes it may very well cripple the team, but playing their game plan without cheating would have crippled them no matter what.

[oledavy]

. But MikeForAll needs to leave. No personal ill will against the guy, but nobody is going to want to play in a game with him ever again. What's the point of making him play this out, even if players are comfortable with that? Let's not prolong this and just cut him off clean. He can just make a new account and come back in a couple months as entirely different user if he really wants to play Civ6 here anyway. 

The bolded section seems like it argues the opposite to the rest of this paragraph. Better to have him play on as an account that will be checked up on than go create a new one.

Also it'd be a shame for Cornflakes' brilliant map not to get fully used...

You raise a good counter-point, I don't explain myself very well here. 

My argument is thus, I see no positive outcome from trying to "reform" Mikeforall. This is just going to follow him around and impact how people interact with him no matter what he does. Regardless of how long he's been clean everyone is always going to have lingering doubts about him. If we try to institute a prolonged effort to monitor and "rehabilitate" him, he can just opt out at any point and come back under a new account name - effectively making any effort to do so wasted.

[Alhambram]

Several questions in order:

- I think most important question: Do we want this game continue or make a clean start with new map?

I think that players should decide on this subject, after all they are one most affected by it. (Personally I like this map very much and it would be waste to throw it in bin).

- In case of clean start, my suggestion is to do it with 6 players (Sullla, Singaboy, Emperor K, TheArchduke, Woden and Chevalier Mal Fet, same teams and if they want same civilizations or redo snake pick) and cornflakes can make even better map than already awesome current one.


- In case of continuing game: Shall MikeForAll keep playing under surveillance of lurkers, every turn screenshot with full information and exactly telling what he did in his turn, or have him leave out this PBEM and seek replacement player / Japper do both Kongo and Khmer?

- And matter of punishment for Khmer? Cornflakes already made four sanctions, all of them do seem rightful in view of current situation. After seeing Sullla's remark and Brain Shanahan's suggestion, maybe instead deleting 2 first missionaries, never use power of Jesuit Education for both Kongo and Khmer (faith purchasing for campus and theater districts) as sanction?