Japper and Cornflakes' team thread

[Japper007]

Looks like we'll pick our civs back to back in the middle of the pack. Any civ you are particularly hoping for Mike? I'd love to show everyone the true strenght of the Kongo, but I'm not above picking one of the powercivs if they are still available.

[Mikeforall]

i will just go with whatever is on offer. After all, it is not the civ that wins the war, but the player that does so. The civ traits are merely tools to achieve it.

[Cornflakes]

Starting Screenshot:

   

[Japper007]

Hmm interesting starts these, I could run a strong Kongo* capital from either of these starts, any preference Mike? The one one the right seems more production heavy, and I know you like production. One clear problem with left is that you have to spend a turn crossing the river to get away from the desert, I agree with the game's recommendation there, or one could settle on the cacoa saving a worker charge on the plantation. The left does have an eventual edge in science with the mountain.

Some general notes on the start:

-Irrigation is a priority with those plantation resources, luckily we both have a farm in the first ring for the boost.
-Right needs to get those horses hooked up on the first builder for Horseback Riding boost and the strategic resource. Only one copy means one of us needs to eat it and build an encampment early, possibly both of us, to have access to horsemen.
-lots of hills!   We do need an early bronze-working to mine all those jungle hills though.

*still want that civ, hope it remains an option once the snakepick gets to us both, which would mean you would need to play a DLC civ Mike, hope you like getting to pick something OP .

[Mikeforall]

You are quite right, I would prefer the eastern start, if you do not mind. 

Since you are going for the Kongo, I should pick a religion-focussed civ. 
The four best combining pics would be:
- Poland
- Khmer
- India (?)
- Indonesia



India is kind of a question mark. On the one side, their meeting-civilizations-with-religion bonus is a nice early-game boost. 
It will however quite soon be overshadowed by districts and Kongo's abilities, rendering it quite useless. 


Indonesia is on the bottom of the list. The reason for this is simple: I am expecting a map with a lot of water.
 Although it sounds perfect for Indonesia, it will all be over if someone picks Norway or England. 
Besides, aside from the lake-tile there is no shallow water in view of our starting positions. If it turns out we start at the center of a huge continental landmass, being Indonesia will suck. 

That will leave Poland and the Khmer. 

With the river and lake, the Khmer looks like the perfect starting nation to me. 
I however do not want to rule out Poland yet, since their culture bomb and especially gold bonus is quite nice too. And the Hussars. Winged Hussars...  

[Japper007]

I said as much to you on Steam already, but for the sake of the lurkerati, here it is again:

I was actually thinking of Indonesia, in a sort of Tourism-focused game. Indonesia can go science-heavy, beeline flight and then get absurd tourism of all the kampung spam (have you looked at the yields people are getting out of these beauties , they are the best Unique Improvements in the game) while Kongo focuses on their double GPP yielding Theatre Squares to pump out tourism in the earlier era's. 
Playing MP duels, I've often caught people of guard with just how much Tourism the Kongo can pump out during the medieval and rennaissance eras, though it falls of later as the Culture Great People get more expensive, stacking that with another beastly Tourism civ could be quite strong. Generally in team games my philosophy is actually getting two synergistic civs that are both geared towards a common goal rather than seeking to fill gaps.

Disagree on Indonesia being weaker than Vikings on water btw, England I could possibly be convinced is stronger if left alone to long. But that's the point: Indonesia can start purchasing their frigate strenght (55!) unique ships at MERCENARIES, an early medieval civic! That's a full era before England gets it's first GA out, even with their cheap docks, and a full two eras before anyone is at Frigates and even long before England gets it's Seadogs. 
Vikings just don't stack up to either Indonesia or England, when everyone gets an easy 100% production bonus to ships a 50% bonus doesn't really shine as much, and the Unique Unit is hardly any stronger than the regular Galley, and naval melee units are pretty much trash either way. 
I know you do not like a game with early aggresion, so I understand if Indonesia's playstyle is not your cup of tea personaly, but you can't deny they stack up pretty favorably to the other Navy civs. The other strong one being Brazil though their UU comes a bit to late to be impactfull.

Indonesia's UU is also another synergy with the Kongo, as the Kongo gets an excellent unit for land defense and Indonesia rules the waves.

I'm fine with you going Poland or Khmer or whatever else too of course, just some extra considerations for you. I'm fine with letting you play the eastern side, as long as you get those horses hooked up in time.

[Mikeforall]

Disagree on Indonesia being weaker than Vikings on water btw, England I could possibly be convinced is stronger if left alone to long. But that's the point: Indonesia can start purchasing their frigate strenght (55!) unique ships at MERCENARIES, an early medieval civic! That's a full era before England gets it's first GA out, even with their cheap docks, and a full two eras before anyone is at Frigates and even long before England gets it's Seadogs. 

It is not that they are a weaker civ in general, not at all. I however are more of a land-player than a navy-player (aside from that one great England game we did duel) and thus see the risk very high of plundering vikings or superiour england taking over the seas. 
And I disagree with you: Landlocked indonesia IS weak. They will not get the sea adjacency bonus for their districts, which is quite a big deal when playing indonesia. They will also loose out on the +2 faith bonus for having a city center on the coast. 

[...] in a sort of Tourism-focused game.  
Playing MP duels, I've often caught people of guard with just how much Tourism the Kongo can pump out during the medieval and rennaissance eras, though it falls of later as the Culture Great People get more expensive, stacking that with another beastly Tourism civ could be quite strong. Generally in team games my philosophy is actually getting two synergistic civs that are both geared towards a common goal rather than seeking to fill gaps.

Eh, I don't need Indonesia for that. I am quite confident I can manage that with the Khmer, better even than with Indonesia. 
And yes, I agree on a common goal rather than merely 'filling up' the gaps that were left open because they weren't relevant anyways. 
Alright then, I'll go with the Khmer. Let this twisted game of faith and domination begin!
DEUS VULT!

[Japper007]

I forgot the landlocked angle yes, the start does scream Khmer indeed. Side note though, Indonesia also get their faith bonus from being next to lakes...

I did some thinking on our tandem build orders btw:

Western Kongolese (Japper): Slinger 2x-Settler-Campus (or Campus earlier if we get the Writing boost quiker)
Eastern Khmer (Mike): Slinger-Builder-Holy Site-Settler (Maybe Settler earlier if no Astro Eureka)

Tech Order: Animal Husbandry-Pottery-Irrigation (boosted by Mike's first builder laying a farm on his food resource) after that either Astro or Writing though I don't have the math on what would be more efficient there, and it depends on whether or not we luck out on a boost. After that it's on to Aquaducts (for the Khmer) and Swords (for the Ngao Mbeba) we also need to mix in Encampments somewhere in there...

Culture: pretty much the same as every other game, though I do want to make Theatre Squares a priority after we get our government and I need Guilds ASAP to get the most out of my Mbanza spam economy.

I sorta agree with Cornflakes assesment that early builder is weak (at most it adds 3 food or production and 1.5 housing meaning that, at 80 production cost, it takes a long time to pay for itself) and it's best to build other things first, however with this tandem start we can do a por que no los dos thing and both get a builder AND an early expand.

[Japper007]

So Mike and I got in a practice game through Steam, here's what we found:

Players do not share tech like in civ 5 teamers, instead if a teammember discovers a tech, the rest of the team gets a boost to that tech. Same goes for Civics. This flips the game completely on it's head, where it is actually more efficient to pursue completely different goals on the techtree in tandem, rather than focusing on the same one as it is in 5.

The earlier discussed strategy, where Mike goes after a religion and I focus on maximizing gold to sling in the mid-late game, worked superbly. Though we did test against Deity AI which is, gently put, rather shit right now. The Ballista Elephants (don't ask me to spell their actual name) and Ngao Mbeba Unique Units also showed their worth, being able to tank out against units from more advanced era's with ease.

[Mikeforall]

The Ballista Elephants (don't ask me to spell their actual name) and Ngao Mbeba Unique Units also showed their worth, being able to tank out against units from more advanced era's with ease.

Honestly, I would say it is easier to type 'Domrey' than 'Ballista Elephants' 

But indeed, the testgame gave quite some nice insights. On the tiny 4-player map we practiced on we got domination vic only one turn before the religious vic would have been achieved. 
Which means that, in its basic concept at least, the strategy of a religious Khmer and Financial Kongo powerhouse, together with military backup, works superb. 

The one thing we should keep in mind is to communicate throughly about who is researching what, both in science and civics. Doing something double does not matter much against the AI, but against human players it most likely will.