Japper and Cornflakes' team thread

[Japper007]

I'll be interested to hear what Mike's astonishing production didn't make you suspicious Japper.

It did actually, the sudden three Archers seemed highly dubious to me, I didn't see the shrine (so the cheating only stood out to me a turn before Mike confessed), but it stood out to me only in a "Huh how'd he do that?" than in a "Is he cheating?" way. I had this whole theory in my head that he must've chopped into agoge or colonization and used overflow (which is also IMHO a borderline exploit btw, the way it works currently, but that is a discussion for another time...) I just put it up to him being a better player than me. I'm a pretty average player, maybe even somewhat below average, so when I see my teammate getting ahead of me I usually put it up to me sucking more than them cheating. I also know Mike as a top-tier EUIV and Civ5 player, so it didn't seem above him to me to just be that good at civ6

[MJW (ya that one)]

delete the trader as well ?

It's trading at this point through. It's probably okay to just delete it as soon as it can get back.

[Jabah]

That was in response to Cornflakes last message in the [NO PLAYERS] thread so don't click on the link (green arrow).

[Old Harry]

I'll be interested to hear what Mike's astonishing production didn't make you suspicious Japper.

It did actually, the sudden three Archers seemed highly dubious to me, I didn't see the shrine (so the cheating only stood out to me a turn before Mike confessed), but it stood out to me only in a "Huh how'd he do that?" than in a "Is he cheating?" way. I had this whole theory in my head that he must've chopped into agoge or colonization and used overflow (which is also IMHO a borderline exploit btw, the way it works currently, but that is a discussion for another time...) I just put it up to him being a better player than me. I'm a pretty average player, maybe even somewhat below average, so when I see my teammate getting ahead of me I usually put it up to me sucking more than them cheating. I also know Mike as a top-tier EUIV and Civ5 player, so it didn't seem above him to me to just be that good at civ6

Thanks, that sounds reasonable.

[Cornflakes]

delete the trader as well ?

It's trading at this point through. It's probably okay to just delete it as soon as it can get back.

Yes it can be deleted when the route completes.

Japper, to summarize where we stand the following sanctions are being applied to Khmer which I'm taking over:

1) No use of Jesuit Education ever. Jesuit Education was claimed illegitimately due to the purchase of the shrine 
2) Deleting the two archers which were purchased, also delete whatever is currently the least expensive unit that can be purchased (may need to wait a couple of turns to accumulate enough gold to make the purchase). The extra unit deletion is compensation for extra gold that is currently in the coffers and was leftover after the purchases. 
3) Delete the settler that is currently on the map (which was purchased)
4) Wait 10 turns minimum after reaching Political Philosophy before changing out of Chiefdom government to compensate for the extra culture for the Monument which was purchased about turn 20.
5) Delete the trader which was purchased.

That being said it's going to be a tough hole to climb out of but I'm going to put my best effort into it. I'm expecting to lose at minimum the border city. If you can get some classical military in the field in time I think we can save the capital.

Could you give me a brief summary of what the reasoning was behind picking Congo & Khmer? I'm not very familiar with either nation and have never played them. I want to get an idea of the strengths and what your vision is for how the game will play out.

[Japper007]

First of all welcome to the thread Cornflakes, looks like we will get to play a game together after all (unlike PBEM4 where you had to bow out early on to help the mapmakers), just wish it were under less... unfortunate circumstances.

Khmer/Kongo synergies:

-The Khmer unique Prasat building gives missionaries a free Martyr promotion (meaning they create a relic when they die in religious combat). Mike and I tested religious combat and you CAN fight religious combat even with your allies, as religious combat doesn't require war declaration. Kongo gets the ability to spawn apostles every time they build Theatre Squares or Mbanza, and apostles utterly decimate missionaries in religious combat.

The idea was I'd get a different religion than the one for our own team, spawn a bunch of opposite religion apostles, and Mike would suicide Martyred missionaries into me to generate a near limitless supply of relics.

Then this feeds into the Kongolese Nkisi ability (relics give 2 food 2 production and 4 gold, capital holds 5 relics). So essentialy abuse obscure religious mechanics to give the Kongo player a massive yield bonus and roll that along with the Relic Tourism into a cultural victory

-Another synergy between the civs is that both Kongo and Khmer have the ability to grow massive cities, so we thought we could control large amounts of lands with fewer cities spaced widely apart (essentialy playing "Tall" civ 5 style, though that is more Mike's "thing" than it is mine)

-The Ngao Mbeba and Domrey UU's are really supplementary, Ngao with tortoise promotion are an almost unkillable meatshield, while Domrey provide the heavy firepower behind that to take down cities and encampments.

Kongo strenghts (can't say much about Khmer only played them once myself):

-The Mbanza, I have a more detailed post on them further back in the thread, essence is they turn a 2/1 forest or jungle tile into a 4 food 4 gold tile and they are dirt cheap to knock out (by the mid-late game 5 Mbanza are cheaper than ONE 5 charge builder, and often provide more yield).

With this and Kongo's leaning towards early Commercial Hubs (as you get double GM points, Kongo should get them in every city) and possibly some relics/Artifacts/Sculptures to trigger Nkisi, I've frequently topped 1K gold income (that's a mech infantry purchase every 2 turns or a frigate/Xbow every turn, not to mention building purchases) EDIT Also Housing, glorious glorious housing! 30 pop cities are so juicy!

Overall strategy:

Culture victory, never gets done much in Multiplayer (as people focus more on Campuses and Encampments) so people often do not have adequate counters in place. This would be done mostly through Kongo's innate bonus to Theatre squares (double GWAM points, essentialy you dominate every culture great people game without Russia, sadly they are in this game ) and the relics through the missionary meatgrinder strategy outlined above. 

You may have some doubt about the Campus I built then right? Well I've found the Culture Victory in its current state needs Science a lot more than it does actual Culture, you need Printing (double Tourism from Great Writing), Computers (100% Tourism boost!) and Radio for Coastal Resorts (which are even more gold to add to the ever growing pile of Kongo dough)

[Cornflakes]

1 Settler and 1 archer deleted, one scout purchased and deleted. The 2nd archer cannot be deleted until it heals back to full health (who's brilliant idea was that anyway that only full health units can be deleted?):

   
   
   

   

Here's an overview shot. Why is the capital building another HS project after having already founded the religion? I swapped off to a warrior (2 turns). Even though there is only one turn left on the project I don't see any value in completing it.

After looking around in-game the position is not hopeless for the Khmer/Congo team. If it was only Khmer then yes hopeless, but I think we can at least stave off immediate defeat in the next 50 turns. The current power difference is scary, but unless Woden/CMF press the attack immediately at Aranyaka I think we have a chance at saving it.

The terrain is very defensive there, and if we have time to get a warrior inside and a couple of archers behind I think we might be able to hold on to it. Only time will tell. 

No time now for further thoughts on long-term strategy.

[Japper007]

I settle the northern canal city "The Jungle Book" (btw feel free to alter your naming theme if you like Cornflakes, it's your civ now!), with the Iron revealed it actually has a decent tile to work in first ring, with the one science from that tile and the Campus I finish next turn in Heart of Darkness that should reinforce the science lead I have of the back of my two Scientific CS

I started it on a Builder, done in 18 turns, though it'll speed up once the city gets another population and works another hill, I want to 50% research both Wheel and Iron Working (11 turns and 8 turns at full research cost, both to 50% would only take me 10 turns) and then knock both out simultaniously when the Builder improves the Iron. Then I can start upgrading pre-build Warriors (capital goes double Warrior after the Campus) to upgrade into my UU.



I continue moving my Archer to the front, it'll take him a while with the tough terrain, but at least we have a road between the capitals to speed him along a bit. More reinforcements are coming in the form of my UU after Iron Working tech. Hold on Cornflakes!

[hzhp800]

Cornflakes,

Just a head's up. Since the penalties have never been announced in the organization thread, only in the lurker thread and here, the other teams seem to be in the dark and have voiced concerns and confusion about whether or not there was any punishment implemented at all. Is this deliberate or should the determined penalties be made public to the other players?

Anyway, as an appreciative gen lurker, I also just want to say thanks for all you have done to help make this classic game possible and now for it to continue. 

[Ituralde]

I agree wholeheartedly with hzhp800. Thank you for leading the investigation and now taking over for Mike. I look forward to see what you can salvage out of this situation and I am glad that this fantastic game will continue.

I wish you both the best of luck!