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Full Version: Kyan + Refsteel = Peter + India. Clearly. [SPOILERS]
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cheater
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Yeah, that's what you get for hovering over my thread name! If you're not one of the above, then welcome!

Please, pull up a beanbag (yeah, we're THAT laid back) and enjoy. I intend to win this game. Tis a good target i feel and whilst Refsteel will most definitely tell me off. Not only can we do it, by golly we will!

The leader/civ:

Do i really need to write why these are good? No? Brilliant.

I'll put the emails swapped over by myself and Ref into this thread so you can see just how much we like to jabber on! lol
Kyan Wrote:[COLOR="Cyan"]Ok, we're 5th in the pick. Typical snake pick with no restrictions. It's really hard to have much of a concrete plan with such a late pick but the usual suspects would be first:

Pacal, Willem, India, Lizzie, Ragnar etc.

We'll see what's available and then pick the 'best of the rest'. After being held back in PBEM4 and PB3, i'd really like to have financial as i feel the trait is incredibly powerful. Saying that, PBEM4 should be pretty much won already even without it heh.

Maybe if Inca are about i can live with Peter of Inca or Lizzie of Korea or even Ragnar of Zulu as an out of left field option to scare the other players haha. As i say, it's hard to think much about it as if i set my heart on something, it'll likely get chosen so i'm trying to keep an open mind![/COLOR]

RefSteel Wrote:[COLOR="Magenta"]Heh ... 5th as a late pick! I'm still thinking from the
perspective of RPB3. Pacal and Willem will surely be gone; if not, it
gets interesting. I'm not going to try to sell you on any crazy ideas
like a "Sandbag Economy" game (an idea I was kicking around months ago
that would require way too large a time investment to be arranged
properly) so Best Available Pick is definitely a good idea. I notice
you listed five possibilities, and as we pick fifth, that means we're
sure to get one of those if we want it! I'm not as big fan of
Lizzie's Fin/Phi as most, though she looks much more attractive if we
can pair her with Korea (especially with access to stone...).

Thoughts:

Peter of Inca could be incredibly powerful if leveraged
skillfully. I don't claim any skill at leveraging Phi though -- it's
one of the aspects of Civ I haven't really explored very deeply -- and
I don't know how you feel about it yourself. Also: Which of Peter or
Inca would we pick first if both were on the table? Each is good
enough that the sixth team might take it out from under us.

Ragnar of Zulu would be hilarious. Not what I'd pick with these
game settings, but maybe worth it for the look on people's faces ...
errr, or the ... smileys? In their chat logs? Still funny though.

Because I like to think ahead: Neither Willem nor Pacal should
fall to us (and neither should India, though that's less certain)
unless people decide to just pick weird stuff for fun. (A course
which I would definitely support, by the way.) If we get Liz, surely
Korea will be available (and there are lots of good second choices,
from Egypt to Arabia to China to Mali to ... hmmm....). If we get old
Rags ... well, Maniac wanted to be Ragnar of England in RBP3....

Okay, see me hmmmming above, about Lizzy? I'm not saying you
should pick this here, but I'd like to play the Khmer in an MP game
someday. The Baray, if I'm reading its description correctly, is
terrific. The UU is banned, okay, but I don't care that much about
UUs anyway (with the obvious exception of India). Everyone makes
preparations for it (or even tries to hit you and slow you down) when
it's coming up (if it's any good) and then it quickly goes obsolete.
There are exceptions (India obviously, and Maya is also decent: Holks
are an early economic advantage disguised as a UU) but ... errr, but
... but probably it's mostly the pacifist in me talking. But on Quick
speed, with a normal-sized map and Prince difficulty, the window of
any UU's strength will be limited.
Uh, where was I? Oh, right: The Baray. It's especially good
for Liz, I suspect, because she probably wants to go lighter on the
whip than any other leader (thus, her happy caps may be nearer her
health caps). I think. Anyway, I'd take it more for getting "What in
the ... don't you know the UU is banned what are you doing are you
insane?" looks than for any other reason. Sorta like Rags of Zulu
turned upside-down.

All right, that's enough babble from me on that subject. How've
you been surviving the blizzards?[/COLOR]

Kyan Wrote:[COLOR="Cyan"]You're hilarious. Your random tangents do make me chuckle. The blizzards have been horrendous. No car for a week. Sad times.

Well, you may have seen from the thread that we got PETER of INDIA. I thought, and still do i guess, that this was by far the best option we had left. With gingereagle picking after/before us, i decided to grab India. Even if we couldn't land a quality expansive leader, india is strong regardless. As it turns out, he grabbed Shaka leaving me with a fairly easy choice of Peter.

I spose i could have gone for one of the remaining Financial leaders but with EXP, Peter synergises (real word? who knows) so well and so what if PHI takes more skill to play. This is a PBEM, we can take our time and mull over the turn if need be. Malakai has said to me previously in PBEM4 that as long as he gets the turn before 11pm GMT, he's happy.

Planning: We have no obvious way to pop borders but start with mysticism. I'm REALLY not a fan of grabbing one of the initial religions but could be persuaded if you feel very strongly. I think our best bet would be to use our fast workers to chop out quick monuments initially followed by trying to grab Confucianism or judaism later. In PBEM4, i got hinduism really late but that's no guarantee. If buddhism doesn't go early then we could try it after the initial worker techs. Alternatively, we could use our cheap super workers to attempt to chop out stonehenge at our second city. No IND or CHA leaders so it's definitely a feasible option.

Build Order: Depends a lot on terrain and how near others are to us but we did request room so i would propose a basic: worker -> warrior -> worker -> chopped settler combo. Alternatively, if there are a lot of tree's then a team Spulla start of worker -> chop worker -> warrior -> chop settler could work extremely well.

Tech: A lot depends on surrounding terrain but bronze working is very appealing for a million different reasons.

Theme: I'm not that fussy. I named cities after players and units after mythological creatures from Forbidden Realms in PBEM4. I don't have anything in mind other than 'not default'. Board games and 'theorems' were both used in pbem10 and i thought they were brilliant ideas. Something that's quite wide spanning but allows us to try and fit a name to the city location. eg. for board game, a player claimed the only shared iron tile with a city called Monopoly. Genius! I could always ask lurkers for ideas once we get a thread up and running. I'll copy and paste all these emails into the thread (if you dont beat me to it), when we have one.

Oh, i am not fussed at all about your formalness. We're friends, i know that. I can live (and laugh at) any idiosyncracies you may have hehe.[/COLOR]
My thoughts on opponents:

Nakor/Gaspar: Willem(Fin/Cre)/??? [LAST PICK]
Whosit/Ravus Sol: Suryavarman(Exp/Cre)/Maya
Malakai/Magil: Elizabeth(Phi/Fin)/Korea
Tredje/Sylon: Pacal(Fin/Exp)/Byzantium
Kyan/RefSteel: Peter(Exp/Phi)/India
GE1969*/Sandover: Shaka(Agg/Exp)/Inca

Nakor/Gaspar

Nakor is a competent player and a nice guy. He seems easy to get on with diplomatically so this is good if he's a neighbour of mine but i tend to view it as more of a threat. Competition. rant

Gaspar is a total unknown, but that's no help at all. Damn man, post more! I expect these guys to figure heavily. Very strong leader, obvious pick. Civ could be anything really. I'm going to predict maybe Greece?


Whosit/Ravus


I know Whosit well and we get on very well but i don't think this will help me here. Whosit is very aware from a personal PBEM we played and from PB3 that i am not militarily focused. He also knows that if left alone, i'll happily just sit and build build build. However, he has no idea about... PBEM4 spoiler
the total and complete farmer's gambit i ran in pbem4, so he might not realise just how far i take it at times lol
.
Ravus is an unknown but i looked him up on CFC as i knew he knew Whosit from their previous posts. In a game over there he picked Roosevelt of Sumeria for a competitive game with both Pacal, Willem and India available. I'm therefore going to think he's perhaps not of the 'win at all costs' mentality.

Ravus should act as a good soundboard for Whosit, which is a shame as paranoid Whosit would be SO much fun to toy with. I still intend to try and discretely feed him some random false info, potentially through third parties, just for giggles. Fun times indeed. When you read this later, i love you man :neenernee

Malakai/Magil:

Malakai is a solid if not spectacular player. He seems diplomatically skilled although he's on the over side of the political spectrum to me in PBEM4. That's no spoiler as everyone knows it. He's a good distance behind me currently in that game though so i feel i can outplay him if all things are even. He may well think the same though so early aggresion could be a factor. I expected early aggresion from him in PBEM4 and was luckily not starting next to him.

PBEM4 spoiler
In that game, Malakai razed one of Cull's cities very early and later spent a long time building up a sizeable force and together we took over Culls lands
For the record, i personally don't feel the above is a spoiler as all green players know the info and with vets- i fail to see how it could help you in anyway. As far as im concerned you can look at it, but im playing careful anyway.

Magil is a total unknown so no comments there. Lizzie of Korea is a very strong combo and a very powerful techer.


Tredje/Sylon


No idea on either of these players. A strong combo. Best leader in the game with a strong, if in my opinion, overrated civ. Interesting to see how he plays it as there's always an inclination for people to take them out before 'phracts.

GE1969*/Sandover


This combo scares me. Gingereagle seems a bit touchy and Sandover is a madman to do diplo with. I pray to God that they stay as far from me as possible. I will try my best to talk these guys into attacking Tredje to stop his phracts. This will be one of my main diplomatic goals in this game and shouldn't be too hard to achieve. Depends on map positions though.

The fact that they almost went for aggresive Zulu doesn't give me any comfort. Must play nice!
No coverage of our chat on more interesting choices? What happened to trying something new?

I am disappointed :-(
Twinkletoes89 Wrote:No coverage of our chat on more interesting choices? What happened to trying something new?

I am disappointed :-(

Fine fine, e-mail chat dump:
Chat between Kyan & TT' Wrote:me: you're lurking whosit and ravus right?
jbtwinkletoes89: not dedicated i don't think
it would just be amusing
me: so i can talk shop or not? tongue
jbtwinkletoes89: if you like
me: debating heavily on grabbing aggresive trait
OR getting a civ with an early UU
by now everyone knows my style
9:38 PM whosit especially lol
jbtwinkletoes89: yeah
well i'm in a game with whosit too over on cfc
and i picked lizzie
me: i dont intend to rush anyone, but if im ragnar of rome, it might make them bugger off and leave me alone
jbtwinkletoes89: could've had any of the good civs pretty much - some crap picks my others
and I picked Rome to confuse him
9:39 PM me: haha fun times
whose your leader
nvm bout the list
jbtwinkletoes89: lizzie
me: alex put one up
nice smile
i like lizzie
jbtwinkletoes89: i could've had india too
noone picked it and I was last
but whosit is pacal of inca
9:40 PM me: fucking hell
deadly
9:41 PM jbtwinkletoes89: yeah
jbtwinkletoes89: lol
9:42 PM me: im 5th in the pick
im quite happy with that
if i can get away with pacal of inca, i would love it but no chance
jbtwinkletoes89: yeah
here are the other picks from my game with whosit
Hattie/Zulu
me: wtf...
jbtwinkletoes89: Hanny/Egypt
me: that's odd
9:43 PM no synergy
jbtwinkletoes89: Washy/Mali
me: if you want zulu
go kublai or shaka or ragnar
jbtwinkletoes89: Roosy/Sumeria
then there's Pacal of Inca & Lizzie of Rome
bit of a gulf
9:44 PM there's barely any synergy - only maybe Hanny/Egypt works
9:45 PM me: hannibal?
9:46 PM jbtwinkletoes89: yeah
charismatic to go with obelisks
stonehenge
me: oh i see
jbtwinkletoes89: plus financial
me: its still not great
jbtwinkletoes89: yeah
9:47 PM its still mid-level
me: yeah
jbtwinkletoes89: but Roosy of Sumeria?
jbtwinkletoes89: and Hatty of Zulu?
me: also retarded
its like they just did random lol
they're not even good SP combo's
9:48 PM if you need any help mate, i can answer any questions if that helps
altho you're far more experienced than me now tongue
i can just build economies- thats it lol
jbtwinkletoes89: experienced =/= better
me: it does for warring
jbtwinkletoes89: lol only a little bit now
lots of cock ups - one glory
9:49 PM me: learn more from the cock ups mate
jbtwinkletoes89: true true
9:51 PM me: reckon theres any chance of me getting india willem or pacal?
im thinking no lol
jbtwinkletoes89: i'd be very surprised
me: if i got india on first pick, i assume pacal would have gone so i might go for Shaka of India lol
9:52 PM jbtwinkletoes89: Pacal, willem, lizzie & india may well go first
maybe swap lizzie for ragnar
9:53 PM me: yeah
in which case i'd choose inca
and grab suryavaraman on way back maybe?
hmm or not
maybe Peter
or Shaka
9:54 PM jbtwinkletoes89: maybe genghis?
me: agg/org?
it's on prince so ORG loses some power
jbtwinkletoes89: agg/imp
me: i'd rather AGG/EXP for half price terraces
ah, well, that's better
jbtwinkletoes89: quick settler rush and go out and spank someone
quick ggs
me: but i still think the terrace benefit would outweigh it
9:55 PM jbtwinkletoes89: but have you picked inca?
me: not yet, im theorising
i pick 5th tongue
nakor, whosit/ravus, tredje and malakai before me
so will probs have to wait til tomoro after work
but then two in quick succession with only gingereagle in between
9:56 PM jbtwinkletoes89: i suppose
9:57 PM but then its just playing the best every time
why not Genghis of Zulu
go crack some fearsome heads
me: well, thing is i dont actually want to play aggresive
i just want something scary
to make them leave me alone lol
if im rome or zulu- they're gonna leave me alone and want long NAPs out of fear
i then turn on economic mode
9:58 PM ragnar would be schweet for that
jbtwinkletoes89: but then you waste your asset
kill someone, twice the land
fearsome army
build in peace
me: my asset is economy building and AGG retains its usefulness lategame
yeah i waste the UU
but most UU's get wasted anyway tbh
jbtwinkletoes89: and the Impi is great
i love it
me: holkans have done jack for me in pbem4 lol
yeah it is good
9:59 PM jbtwinkletoes89: you haven't needed to
me: tough decisions
jbtwinkletoes89: you'll learn a lot from playing aggressively for a change
plus you throw one elbow and everyone knows you're not afraid to do it
even if you never do again
10:00 PM me: hmm i suppose that is true
i hope im as far away from whosit as possible
he knows me too well haha
jbtwinkletoes89: everyone can see your pbem4 thread and see you as a good builder
and ran a crazy farmers gambit
go aggressive and hard and you will shock them
10:01 PM me: yeah, would certinaly shock whosit if i do start next to him lol
jbtwinkletoes89: there's enough inexperience players there to shock with a quick impi & chariot rush
me: tredje and gingereagle dont know me so they may read my thread and base thoughts on that
in which case ur plan may be genius
jbtwinkletoes89: exactly
plus you experience something new in mp
me: Ragnar of zulu mmm
10:02 PM jbtwinkletoes89: mortius!
me: haha yup
may have to pick ragnar first and hope for the best
jbtwinkletoes89: if you did that you would have to name your capital in his honour
me: this is all subject to change based on their picks though
jbtwinkletoes89: i'd pick zulu
noone will pick Genghis
me: Ragnar is more likely to get picked i reckon
jbtwinkletoes89: so if you lose ragnar you have a solid back up
10:03 PM me: Shaka > genghis
jbtwinkletoes89: you lose zulu and thats a bigger loss
me: spose that is true
jbtwinkletoes89: I actually like my genghis from pbem 10
me: its nice smile
jbtwinkletoes89: its great for warfare
jbtwinkletoes89: yeah its a monkey off my back
jbtwinkletoes89: that's why i think you should try it
10:10 PM being late in the pick means you can see how peaceful everyone else will be
so you scare them to death with an aggressive pick
me: true
ill have to wait and see
10:12 PM jbtwinkletoes89: indeed - but I advise you try it. I don't see many better opportunities for you to try something different and have a good chance of success
10:14 PM me: ok ill take a think
10:17 PM jbtwinkletoes89: it'll be great fun to lurk too
i'd love to see whosit's face if you did
10:18 PM me: well dont forget he hasnt read my pbem4
so he doesnt know i ALWAYS do it tongue
jbtwinkletoes89: well you have readily admitted it
10:19 PM me: true

Please note that i deleted some lines from the above conversation due to various other games being discussed.

TT, my plan was to do exactly that but then India was still available when it got to me. As were Shaka and Peter. I was heavily considering Shaka for giggles but gingereagle took him and made my decision easy.
Don't worry, I can see why you picked what you picked as its a supremely powerful pairing. My only disappointment is that its a pretty generic line up in and I sometimes like to see a spanner thrown in the works.
Why, hello! I'm here as a dedicated lurker! Um. Not like in RPB3 though. The plan as I understand it for this game is exemplified by the way we made our picks: Kyan sent some ideas my way, I responded with random thoughts and suggestions that may have been 89% comic relief, and then he made the picks on his best judgment. I'll update the thread when I get a chance, but this is Kyan's team. It must also be noted that Kyan is a genius, and his incredible civ/leader picks prove once again - as Sirian said in the incredible RB1 Succession game - that it's better to be lucky AND good!

Twinkletoes89 Wrote:Don't worry, I can see why you picked what you picked as its a supremely powerful pairing. My only disappointment is that its a pretty generic line up in and I sometimes like to see a spanner thrown in the works.
Aye, one of these days I'd like to play Lincoln of the Khmer in spite of No Ballistaphants Allowed, but with the people ahead of us setting the tone with Pacal, Willem, Sury, and Liz, it just wasn't going to be that kind of game. And it's not every game (though I haven't looked at all the PBeM threads) that allows for the kinds of pure power play you can get with unrestricted picks in a field of six. (That said, RBP3 still managed to turn out Peter of Korea, Gandhi of Egypt, and - if I may say so - Pericles of Babylon and Ragnar of Maya, in spite of a field of 17....)

Okay, strategizing!

First and Most Unimportantly: Yup, synergizes is a "real" word (in spite of failing to appear in my world-famous Dictionary That's Older than I Am; it's now presumably heavily used in corporate boardrooms). Believe it or not, real words that ARE included in my DTOIA include synergetic, synergistic, and synergic, all of which mean pretty much the same thing. (But not the same thing as synergizes. Confused yet? Good!)

Planning: I agree about (i.e. against) pursuing early religions, though we'll see how our battle plan survives contact with the game. Chopping a monument is a perfectly good way to pop borders in our second city even if nothing better suggests itself. Stonehenge is intriguing, but the map (and other players) might not cooperate, and if we get it, we'll need to build a strategy around acquiring Great Prophets. The presence of stone, marble, or both could also have an impact on things.

Also of note: Kyan, if you're a peaceful builder by nature, we may be in for a crazy game. In RBP3, such defenses as Maya had were acquired mainly because Maniac sometimes snuck in military builds when I wasn't looking. That said, the most ridiculous part of that game was the war between India and Sumeria. In spite of tensions between the two civs that had been escalating basically ever since first contact (if not before) ... when a Mayan chariot (our ONLY chariot at the time!) started poking around that region, it immediately became the most powerful military force in the combat theater. About five turns later, India chopped out a bunch of its own chariots, and Sumeria went down in flames. (One thing: For exactly this reason, if we pre-chop enough forests without actually cutting them down, we can kind of get away with a Farmer's Gambit in this game, just because of being India.)

Build Order and Tech are deeply intertwined, and depend on our start a great deal. Our food resource(s) and the number of forests around will probably play a large role in our decision: I can imagine anything from Bronze + Fast Worker First (the more forests, the more likely) to Fishing - Wheel - Pottery. Depending on when key techs will be due, if we can't generate 4 base hammers per turn at the start, it might even be worth growing, putting token hammers into a warrior, and starting the Fast Worker at size 2.

Theme: I'm likewise happy with anything other than the default. I'll try to come up with something appropriate to Peter of India - otherwise, the best I've got off the top of my head is Scenes from Shakespeare: Our capital could be Elsinore, or even (for confusion) just The Globe, although if there's snow on the trees nearby, I'd go with Bohemia instead, which has the advantage of a double meaning. Our starting Warrior could be Osric (in case of Elsinore) or Richard Burbage (in case of The Globe) or Antigonus (in case of Bohemia - "Exit, pursued by a bear"). If we want, we can later extend our theme to scenes and characters from other literary luminaries; if not Arden, our National Park city might be called Mansfield.

(And moments later....)

Well, if we want our thread to be a history lesson (for me too) we can go with names of places and persons connected to the Grand Embassy - during which "Peter Mikhailov" (actually the czar himself, incognito) made countless visits across Europe, including one to a shipyard belonging to the Dutch East India Company. (We can also later extend this to East India Company names of all varieties if we so desire.) If so, I suggest:
Capital Name: Grand Embassy. Starting Warrior Name: Mikhailov.
You guys are doing quick speed, right? You'll have a big advantage there with the fast worker. It's already a great UU on standard speed, but on quick speed it just blows away anything else. Especially with expansive to get the first worker out sooner.
I for one am going to enjoy lurking this thread/pbem. Ravus, Whosit, Ref, Sandover, AND Kyan all in one game? :neenernee

In fact, I'll just lurk this thread. smile
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