RB PBEM #10 [SPOILERS] - Meatbalz

[pocketbeetle]

Can I get a :dancing5:!

You can!

So that sent me running to Russia's manly arms.

Little less imagery please!

I now have to go and wirebrush my brain

Interesting update. The dark green-on-black text you're using for your conversation replies is a little difficult to read however.

For what it's worth, no problems here.
Maybe a slightly lighter shade?

[meatbalz]

Not much to report. Infrastructure push going along as planned. I'm adding another archer to the TT front since I really fear he's going to snap any moment... he broke the ROP agreement for the third time last turn with a trireme, I think he just doesn't care anymore at this stage

I'll be very curious to see how he reacts when he sees the first spears in my cities. I've fronted AH 80gc for 5 turns' worth of iron, more than enough for the 5-6 spears that will give me security until I can get my own source hooked up (I have 2 workers going Eastward as we speak, although they'll improve a deer & gems first).

Also in 1T my warrior uncovers the last tile of the E island and Serdoa and I can start deciding how to settle it - shouldn't be too much of an issue.

I've been planning on building ToA, and it's probably still a good idea. Will see how diplo shapes up.

[Tyrmith]

Maybe a slightly lighter shade?

Even that can be kind of hard to read. Personally I'd go with something bright like yellow or red.

[meatbalz]

Big turn

- Cities growing. Food+MFG now firmly back above average, 189 versus 180 average. I have to be a bit careful because I'm not last in score anymore.
- Sent Serdoa map of the island between us & suggested a split.
- Feudalism came in & i'm going to keep enough gold to emergency-upgrade a couple of archers to LB in a pinch. Construction is probably my next tech
- CH built GW for reasons that are beyond me. His power rating is shooting up. Great Spy bulbs... nothing, correct? (technical question so lurkers should be able to answer)
- I took Goth on the central island which everyone will soon know about thanks to CH having a WB there.

That last one presents an opportunity, so I've offered the city to both Serdoa (where it might make geographic sense) and AH (more as a gesture, but if he wants it and Serdoa doesn't it I'll gladly give it to him). Serdoa popped a GS last turn and I'd asked him if he'd deal either a GS or GP, so let's see...

[meatbalz]

CH caught me on gmail so we had a chat

Cyneheard: Congratulations on the barb city
Sent at 12:30 PM on Friday
me: thanks... felt like a shame to raze it
even though i hadn't planned on settling there for a long time
Cyneheard: well, rumor has it that you won't be alone for terribly long
me: not a rumor...
chariot/settler
Cyneheard: ah. This is what I get for getting info thirdhand
me: doubtful it's thirdhand ;-)
Cyneheard: It wasn't from TT
but I can't recall which of the other three it was
me: he doesn't have a lot of choice at the moment
Cyneheard: yeah, ad hoc pressed in on him from the north
you two have split your big island
Now, Serdoa...he's pulled a Kodii.
PB1, as Louis, just wonderspammed his way to oblivion
me: aha was wondering what you meant, didn't follow that one that closely
i guess he needs to leverage IND, but it looks over the top
Cyneheard: he's got to be #6 in power.
Which means he's 40k behind 5th.
me: yeah i was going to say - by a distance
Cyneheard: The rest of us are all over 140k.
with #1 at 157
me: he's gambling...
i think number 1 is ad hoc
Cyneheard: well, Tatan has iron hooked up.
me: i believe
yeah...
he knows about TT&me not being best friends
i think he's guessing (correctly) that i have enough on my hands with one loose cannon as a neighbor
Cyneheard: especially since you don't have metal up yet.
Sent at 12:41 PM on Friday
Cyneheard: But Serdoa doesn't have a metal source unless he popped one.
me: that would be quite ridiculous. i checked last turn, no metal
Cyneheard: happened to France in PB3.
They popped copper a few turns before I razed their copper city
me: pretty lucky
Cyneheard: just a little
would have saved them if they weren't recklessly stupid
leaving Paris defended with just one damaged spear
me: i know
i was in charge of diplo on that game at the start
Cyneheard: which civ?
me: HRE
Cyneheard: Oh, right.
That was a LONG time ago.
me: was too friendly to france... they thought it was a sign of weakness
Cyneheard: I remember it mostly being the Ilios show.
me: yeah, ages ago
Cyneheard: France was completely clueless.
me: yeah, i had a lot going on and diplo was far too convoluted
Cyneheard: I mean, Slavery...
or, NO slavery...
the diplo was absurd
I burnt out at least once
really, twice.
me: once was enough for me
Cyneheard: 1) Right after PAT formed
2) When the game restarted
me: awful game
this one is shaping up to be great
Cyneheard: yeah, just too big
I hope so
Although I'm annoyed at Kyan's choice for how he distributed the metal.
me: 2 4-tile islands, 1 3-tile
+ you can do what i did
Cyneheard: heh, you claimed Serdoa's iron without even trying.
me: and lock your neighbor out
Cyneheard: It should have been a 5-tile island
with the iron on the edges
so that you couldn't lock your neighbor out
without settling twice
me: meh...
Cyneheard: or, really, iron should have been on the triangle
me: settle central tile, wait for borders to 2x-pop
Cyneheard: that's a long time, unless you're ad hoc
me: home island would have been better
i agree
wanted to run something by you
Cyneheard: ok, go ahead
me: any interest in my city on central island
Cyneheard: Hm.
What are you looking for in exchange?
me: sorry, 1 sec
Sent at 12:51 PM on Friday
me: ok i'm back
gold
or a GP
Cyneheard: You've got the Great Lighthouse, and you're asking for more gold?
me: yup... i don't particularly need the city
Cyneheard: My Great People are worth far more than a central island city.
me: and i don't think you want to be ferrying troops across the map
Cyneheard: Agreed, long supply lines suck.
me: GL is nice but TT set me back
+ i've had to build more military than i'd like because of his aggression
Cyneheard: you've got 10 cities
that's more than enough free commerce
there's just no way I can give you more of your strength.
me: most of 'em i had to plant off the central island to claim land quick vs TT
can't blame you for your stance
but check my food, pop, and MFG against yours for example
not really competitive
Sent at 12:56 PM on Friday
me: you can see the Pop demog
Cyneheard: aye
well, food
me: yeah, food & pop
i'm miles behind
and not catching up very quickly
and my MFG is sub-par too
Cyneheard: MFG is a draw at the moment.
me: and more than i'd like has gone to troops rather than infrastucture
Cyneheard: #1 is 75, #6 is 67.
Food, there's a disparity (149 to 93)
me: food->hammers early game so i'm behind in hammers if not the MFG stat
Cyneheard: speaking of which, I'm surprised you didn't try to ICS your triangle
given your TR commerce, in particular
there's no way you can get more than
like 7 citgies
instead of 9
me: i still have 3 spots to settle
i wasn't joking when i said my development was lacking
would have liked to get them settled, but that would have meant conceding the whole island to TT
Cyneheard: landgrab first, fill in later
me: indeed
Cyneheard: although, moving where you did on T0 wrecked an ICS dotmap
me: but it got me TGL
so i'm happy w/ it
Cyneheard: true.
me: that's the one thing keeping me afloat.. the T0 move
my rsch is above average, food & production well below
Cyneheard: you're getting more out of your wonder than Serdoa is out of his whole set
me: but 10 cities is better than 7
Cyneheard: yeah, long-term, I think you'll be fine there
me: yeah, he's gone full-on wonder hog
Cyneheard: Parth + GLib isn't a bad pairing but...Jesus.
me: well, if he doesn't get conquered his rsch will catch up
IF
Cyneheard: I know.
me: i can't do anything about it now
Cyneheard: I just wish I was next to him.
me: way too busy on the TT front
it's tempting to go after him...
but TT would declare in a heartbeat
he might anyway
Cyneheard: You mean Ilios.
TT doesn't have that mean streak.
Ilios...I think we both know the answer to that one.
me: i think TT is going to overcompensate
twice he's been screwed by going too light on military
not this time i think
he set out to be aggressive right from the start
(razing my city)
Cyneheard: Well, Genghis of Sumeria was a great pairing.
And, yeah, chariot vs. chariot?
me: yeah, smart move
Cyneheard: I'd have done that one if I was him.
I wanted Genghis of Sumeria, but knew that Hammy of Sumeria was fairly likely if I grabbed Genghis when I could have.
I just wish I hadn't taken Carthage.
me: ???
Cyneheard: Should have done Portugal.
me: water map...
Cyneheard: Numids are worthless.
me: i said in my thread that the one who should have taken portugal is tatan
Cyneheard: NUmids are worse than useless, on this map.
Nah, Dutch work just as well.
Better, really, if it gets that far.
No one can mess with Dikes on this map.
me: i'm gutted i missed out on napoleon
boudica of arabia is not what i was hoping to get
Cyneheard: Given our choices (again, why I don't get Serdoa's choice)
me: especially when the only other AGG civ becomes your enemy as soon as you meet
Cyneheard: I mean, Ind/Pro over Agg/Imp, Imp/Cha...anything else?
me: aha sorry i meant Serdoa should have taken portugal
not tatan
Cyneheard: ah, yes.
Well, he may have suggested it?
me: Qin at least has an advantage, although cyrus is better
bt why bother taking russia, which plays like a naked civ for 2/3 of the game
Cyneheard: Cossacks are useful
me: when that's the alternative, portugal is 100% upside
Cyneheard: but Research Institute???
me: they come too late (cossacks)
Cyneheard: Probably.
But RIs are utter junk.
me: worthless
he's not even Russian ;-)
don't get that one
better for everyone else there's no portugal
Cyneheard: that is true
Carracks would be absurdly dangerous
probably inviting dogpiles
although, Charismatic Carracks would be obnoxious to knock off.
me: obnoxious is putting it lightly
Cyneheard: Just get Theocracy and Vassalage, and you'll have a crazy navy.
Well, both of us, really.
me: it'll be quite a while before i'm in those
need to get my cities founded & developed first
OR / HR higher priorities
Cyneheard: true, but you can also blow through those techs faster than anyone
me: haha, i think you're overestimating my rsch rate, although no doubt it's faster than average
the more people develop their cities the more the advantage erodes
Cyneheard: break-even of 110bpt gets you those two techs in about 8-10t
me: but it's not a trifling advantage at the start, for sure
Cyneheard: since you have the pre-reqs
there's no way you're only at 110bpt.
Well, hm. Maybe.
me: 110bp break-even?
you might be overestimating a bit there
the trade routes help
Cyneheard: There's no way you're that little ahead.
60 free commerce from TR
me: well, i'm working a lot fewer tiles
Cyneheard: relative to me
me: i'm checking my last screenie to have a look
Cyneheard: You've got ~35 pop
me: yeah that's right
110 is a bit high bt not far off
problem is
i barely have any libs or markets
fixing that now
Cyneheard: Markets are for happy
me: markets are for gold...
binary
Cyneheard: binary makes no difference.
T-Hawk 101.
me: difference or not, 25% extra gold helps when you're relying on gold from trade routes
Cyneheard: aye, but at 60% science time-averaged, you're talking 40% gold on up to 20 commerce. That's 2gpt from the market.
outside, say, the capital
me: 2gpt/city ain't bad
it's like an extra trade route
Cyneheard: agreed, but it's 100h
me: obviously libs
take priority
Cyneheard: that's a lot for just 2gpt, again why the happy is the real reason to build them
the gold just means it's better than Cols or temples
me: economy is all i've got going for me right now
libs & even mkts are critical
can't engage in a 2-front war
so landgrab is out of the question
Cyneheard: heck, I don't think you can engage in a one-front war.
me: TT is likely to attack soon given v. aggressive troop positionings & i have to keep that front solid
so thank god serdoa isn't a military threat
your military isn't looking too shabby
Cyneheard: and that ad hoc boxed out TT
on the iron
at least, that's the impression I got from ad hoc
he's not always perfectly clear in convos
me: yeah
and agreed re: AH
when we were talking at the start
you said you'd build quickly to 12 cities
you've only deviated from that path twice
once for HG
this time big military buildup...
Cyneheard: TGW was a "Hm. Why not. I'll get a GG off of it eventually".
It's not a big military buildup.
TGW is quite a few soldier points
and pop add up fast
as well as garrisons
TGW's 10k
me: thans
thanks
was saying i'd looked it up and forgotten how man it was
:-)
Cyneheard: And eventually the Spy will be of value somehow
either espionage or golden age
so, no, I'm not in a position to invade anyone right now
and won't be for some time
me: espionage not much of an option w/ the game settings
Cyneheard: regardless
me: yup, i think the only one who's been building military planning to use it immediately is TT
but everyone's thinking 15-20T ahead
as they should
Cyneheard: true, but I need my metal before I can really start an army
me: you & tatan managed to split?
Cyneheard: yep
Not sure why, tbh
he could have claimed it, and I'm not sure I could have done anything about it
me: i'm sure he beat you there
haha
i was going to say
i'm sure he beat you, because if you'd gotten there first you would have locked him out
sensible move
Cyneheard: agreed
it would have been too easy
and then, turn my HG pop into spears
and galleys
and just flood him with them until he popped
a few swords for archer-busting
me: + you don't have TT next to you giving you problems
Cyneheard: that's true
me: anyway nice chat
Cyneheard: aye
me: (even though we skirt the real issues)
gotta go
Cyneheard: still don't think I can make you an offer on Goth, though
me: my fiancee' says she needs her miso soup now so it's sushi time
understandable
Cyneheard: Ooh
sounds good
I think tomorrow night's Korean, so tonight will be something lame & home-cooked
me: nice! home -cooked doesn't sound lame... see ya
Cyneheard: it is when I'm the chef.

1) made him think Serdoa is defenseless. in reality he's building an army & will have my iron in ~5 turns or so.
2) tatan plans to attack serdoa
3) i offered the organizer of an economic embargo against me a city in exchange for gold CH, when this game is over and if you happen to look back at this, that's a little middle finger from me to you for trying to set up the embargo
4) i downplayed my development. org rel & forges in my high-hammer cities help. from the graphs, neither CH nor TT are in OR or HR (no anarchy). CH because of lack of religion (see below). i also over-egged markets - i don't have a single market going nor any pressing plans to build them. maybe 1 if i get a GP from serdoa.
5) unless he's sandbagging as well, he's researching at maybe 100/turn breakeven. his top research rate is probably about 10-15% below me... NOW. at a rough guess i'm up 500-700 beakers on him, and more on the others.
6) can't get a good read on his military plans, but i meant what i said about reading into his pause in expansion. he obviously wouldn't tell me but i'm guessing Tatan giving up iron must have netted him a long NAP given what CH confirmed (he was beaten to it). so i must warn AH.

anyway - speaking of religion. CH and Tatan are without their own & i plan to keep it that way if i can. especially when i need Theocracy to leverage CHA. T100 is coming quickly. i have Theo; i have Feud. now i need HBR (next).


and to further complicate things... TT is taking the piss now plain and simple. a trireme has entered my waters and is scouting my lands.



if it were a work boat i'd let it pass, but this is the 4th time he's broken the ROP agreement. in response, i've moved 2 spears to a forest outside TT's city (defense: 1 chariot), and my C2 chariot just outside the city he just founded on central island. i will send him a message asking him to remove the trireme from my land, or i will interpret it as a hostile act.

[meatbalz]

To TT

Hi TT,

How are you. I wanted to double-check that you were still on board with the peace treaty we signed. The reason I ask is, the trireme you have sent into my lands is the 4th time you've violated the ROP agreement attached to the treaty.

You had asked me for the terms one turn before violating the ROP agreement the second time, so maybe there's been a misunderstanding. I want to clarify - no units except for work boats are allowed in each other's territory until T100. Please remove the trireme from my lands or I will interpret it as an act of aggression.

I hope we can put this misunderstanding behind us, and I'm still hoping that we find a way to work together. I know communication between us has been sporadic and I'm as much to blame as you, maybe this is the opportunity to start a constructive dialogue again.

MB

[meatbalz]

MB,

I am still on board with the treaty, I have simply misunderstood the naval part of the ROP agreement. I have been choked off a lot of land by the culture of Gilgamesh, so I am trying to send my naval units wherever I can to see if there are any more islands reachable by galley. If they were found between us, naturally I would have made you aware of it and divided the spoils!

I do hope we can construct an effective dialogue again, as now all the drama of PBEM 7 diplo has gone, this game's diplo can stop being overshadowed now!

TT

Note: he claims to misunderstand the naval part of the ROP. He's broken it with land units as well. And that part about dividing the spoils come on...

That's great news, and glad we cleared the misunderstanding up.

I don't think, as far as I can tell at least, there are any more available islands. Congrats on settling the central island, you're actually the first to found there, I just got lucky and had a chariot looking around which found a barb city.

Thanks for the kind words re: dividing the spoils, not sure I believe it especially since I settled aggressively on you in response to the city razing. Sounds like AH was if anything even more aggressive, but let's put it this way - just like you saw my empty city as an opportunity you couldn't pass up, so did I see the opportunity to curtail a hostile, aggressive neighbor's expansion.

That's done and dusted now, you razed a city of mine, I settled aggressively in response, these things happen in multi-player games. I'm a pragmatist. I've got a wonder-crazy Russia sitting in deep 6th place in military power on my other border, so if the two of us can put the past behind us I am certainly open to discussing how we can work together.

MB

Not a word of lie. The issue is IF we can put the past behind us - the answer to that, from me, is a resounding no. Our NAP expires T100 and right now it looks like I'm on schedule to be ready.

[meatbalz]

more chat with cyneheard

12:06 PM me: thanks... islam's a while away though ;-)
12:07 PM Cyneheard: hehe
well, that's halfway to the free 4XP plan
me: yeah
CHA has 2 things going for it, so gotta make the most of it
12:08 PM i think things are going to heat up in the next 10-15T, i might be late to the party
but i'm going to try anyway...
Cyneheard: that soon?
me: hmmm 10 turns probably too soon
Cyneheard: I'm NAPped with neighbors for at least that long.
12:09 PM me: i've got TT until T100
but that hasn't looked like stopping him
gotta be prepared for an attack from him
12:10 PM Cyneheard: I've definitely got the impression that he could do that. He's given me no evidence that he will, and I think it's actually somewhat doubtful that he will before T100.
me: he's broken our ROP agreement 4 times
Cyneheard: yeah, but he has no iron.
me: although the last time he put down to a misunderstanding, so we're moving on from it
12:11 PM Cyneheard: And I don't think anyone's going to give him any.
me: iron can be obtained... not sure nobody will give him any
AH definitely not
Cyneheard: And I have no desire to.
me: that leaves Tatan
Cyneheard: Tatan? He's only got one.
12:12 PM me: 5T is long enough to whip up a good number of troops
Cyneheard: aye.
me: i'm actually enjoying this
Cyneheard: same here.
me: crazy guy who could attack at any moment on one side
wonder-hog on the other
Cyneheard: yeah, you're in a weird spot.
12:13 PM me: it's like being sandwiched between monty and louis in a civ4 game
Cyneheard: well, it's Agg/Imp and Ind/Pro instead of Agg/Spi and Ind/Cre
But...yeah...
me: close enough... behavior wise at least
12:14 PM Cyneheard: Agg and Ind are two of the more game-changing traits: You've got to leverage them, so that leads to overleveraging them.
Not saying they're that strong (they're both decent), but that you have to bend your plan around them
me: i've gone the opposite way
Cyneheard: Ind is notorious as a temptress
me: work on my weakness rather than leverage my strength
hence TGL
12:15 PM Cyneheard: true, but Imp's a better econ trait
me: exactly the problem
i have no econ trait (CHA is poor for that)
so that's what i've worked on fixing
Cyneheard: I found the happy helpful early
12:16 PM me: yeah, like i said, CHA does have quasi-economic advantage since you can have larger cities early game. if happy resources are scarse it's a noticeable difference
12:17 PM not so much in this game though
Cyneheard: well, gems took a while to get up
just furs and ivory until Calendar
me: still don't have mine hooked
Cyneheard: !
I've had to
me: easy to check in the trade screen...
Cyneheard: yeah, but I forget about which happy res to check for
me: aha
Cyneheard: versus, say, metals and such
12:18 PM then again, I think I've built more workers already than Krill has in PBEM2
me: that's always been a weak point for me, and this time no different
i think without checking i might be under 1/city
not good
Cyneheard: no, there's too much land for that
12:19 PM I figure I'll have my entire triangle fully improved by T90, except for any post-CS farms
me: nice one
you'll have seen
12:20 PM Cyneheard: oh yeah
me: i'm a fair distance from that
didn't manage to work the diplo as well as you
couldn't afford to stay light on military
at all
and had to landgrab to head off TT
Cyneheard: Well, I was the one running PB3's diplomacy.
Not just England's.
12:21 PM me: i'm not good enough at diplo to handle that
Cyneheard: Very little happened in that game without my influence once PAT took over.
me: nor do i have the inclination...
Cyneheard: That I understand.
me: that's pretty impressive
coordinating that many players
Cyneheard: The wars that happened weren't all that much me, but alliance switches?
12:22 PM me: might have to go back and read up on that one ;-)
Cyneheard: and it's not like the wars weren't predictableish
I didn't post well on them.
Especially the flip of HRE and Ottos
me: i guess that would be a turning point alright
12:23 PM Cyneheard: well, the hilarious part of that one is it started with me trying to talk myself out of going to war with HRE.
Since I had a plan to one-move Signa Mati
with Cav before he got Rifling
me: diplo works in mysterious ways
Cyneheard: it does.
12:24 PM me: key is to keep an open mind
Cyneheard: Yeah, but not so open that people can't believe what you say will hold true.
me: and have a clear idea of what you want to achieve obviously
yeah i don't mean wishy-washy or unreliable
12:25 PM that tends to filter through to other games
(e.g. TT)
Cyneheard: right
me: although he and i had a decent email exchange
if we could somehow bury the hatchet...
there's the distant no.6 sitting on my other flank
12:26 PM Cyneheard: right
but I'm not sure TT wants to go north.
Not sure it's any easier.
me: wishful thinking right now
yeah
Cyneheard: at least you've got an iron to dangle
me: that's yet another reason i expect a backstab
he can't afford to wait until T100 because he knows i'll be prepared by then
12:27 PM and if i'm not it's my own damn fault!
Cyneheard: since you should have something good by then (Knights?)
me: T100?
Cyneheard: well, if you beelined
me: i won't have knights by then
Cyneheard: depends.
Like I said, beeline, skipping everything but Feud/Machinery/Guilds
12:28 PM me: that's still... let's see
Cyneheard: all of your 2000ish beakers
me: 2400 * .936
yeah call it 2200 or so
Cyneheard: well, don't forget the pre-req bonuses
12:29 PM me: yeah, i suppose
Cyneheard: it's doable, just tight.
me: don't think i can make it by then, esp since 2 more cities are getting founded shortly...
doesn't hurt as much with TG:
12:30 PM Cyneheard: well, T105.
Those should be a net profit
since you'll still get 9gpt out of the center
I assume you have Currency
and are definitely under the 4-foreign-per city
me: foreign or domestic is not a huge difference right now
Cyneheard: 2 vs 3, I think?
12:31 PM me: given time to grow that;ll change
yeah right now
2/3
Cyneheard: until Harbors come in
me: again, a while away
Cyneheard: yeah
especially since no one's expansive
Ah, the Cothon. At least my UB's worthwhile.
12:32 PM me: i''m not concerned so much about attacking, more defending
cothon is great
Cyneheard: yeah, that was why I did them over Portugal. Figured the UB was clearly a lot better.
me: comes a lot earlier
Cyneheard: and is a building I'd build anyway
me: but again, 100 hammers (or 66)
not cheap
but worth it
12:33 PM Cyneheard: for ~6 commerce? Yeah.
me: yup
Cyneheard: especially with forges and such.
12:34 PM I don't get why Civ5 felt that the forge was too powerful, and had to be mega-nerfed by being split everywhere
especially with maintenance costs
me: is that right?
i'm never an early adopter
and given the reviews civ5 has received...
Cyneheard: yeah, there's several +production buildings
but they're all situational
like "military units"
12:35 PM or "buildings"
it really feels like they felt "this was too powerful in Civ4, let's nerf it", and they NEVER STOPPED nerfing everything.
me: it doesn't sound like a well thought-out game
from the outside
Cyneheard: it isn't. I'm glad I didn't buy it.
12:36 PM Just watching everyone else
read Sullla's Deity SG.
me: i did..
had a good laugh
Cyneheard: yeah
12:38 PM me: guess what - my GF is back from yoga and she wants me off the PC :-D
Cyneheard: lol
enjoy
me: (i'm going to be known as the whipped one)
Cyneheard: yeah, but your cities aren't whipped into oblivion. Only you.
me: hehe
see ya

there's one thing i feel a bit bad about.

me: T100?
Cyneheard: well, if you beelined
me: i won't have knights by then

i won't have knights because i'm arabia...

though compared to CH's outright lies (TT's never given him evidence he'd break our NAP? pure BS) i think i can safely claim the moral high ground here i haven't attacked anyone, i haven't broken ROPs, i haven't tried to organize an embargo & talk another player into breaking a NAP...

[Rowain]

And you can still claim that he has given you the idea

[meatbalz]

And you can still claim that he has given you the idea

now that WOULD be an outright lie

right now i'm hiding my rsch. i ran gold (2T ago), construction 1T (last turn), gold (this turn), gold, HBR 1T. That should mask rsch for 5T and reinforce my rsch sandbagging in CH's mind in case he's been looking at demographics carefully.

i have one or two other things up my sleeve as well but those are 5T away so i don't want to look too far ahead.

still on target for being ready for an attack on T100.

i need more workers. i need more cities. i need more troops

diplo:

me to AH:

Also glad the map information I supplied you with proved helpful. I'm supplying it to you solely for defensive reasons for you as a friend, and not to help you wage an offensive war against TT - if you decide to do that, it's without my current knowledge since you haven't told me for certain you plan to attack him (thinking of my NAP terms with TT now).

Speaking of NAPs, ours expires T100 - would you care to extend that to T125 (or later if you prefer)?

Clarification re: visibility, I meant that I blacked out my rsch in the screenshot I sent, but would be happy to share that info with you as long as you don't share it with anyone and reciprocate. Basically saying, I trust you with sensitive info (like I have with screenshots showing my cities, builds, map info and so on) and am happy to share more if you are.

Now here's some more info for you. Please keep this strictly confidential, and do not share with anyone else. CH and I have had two long chats in the past two days. We skirted the real issues (he still doesn't know I know about the embargo he tried to organize), but I got plenty of info regardless.

Tatan will attack Serdoa
TT is still planning on attacking me (check the soldier count) over you
CH is feeling very happy with himself for his diplo
He confirmed Tatan beat him to iron island and decided to share. ***

More news:
TT founded a city on the central island
TT broke our ROP for the fourth time and we were on the brink of war until we put it down to a "misunderstanding". I moved a chariot just outside central city and 2 spears (& had 2 chariots available to attack simultaneously) outside his city on the contested island defended by 1 chariot. That probably helped make the decision easier for him to back down.

*** This is the nub of the problem. What did Tatan get in exchange for letting CH have iron? It must have been something. CH knows Tatan is attacking Serdoa meaning they're sharing military plans. The reason CH shared this with me is I told him I'd also like to attack Serdoa (true, but have enough on my hands with TT). Basically, Tatan and CH are sharing military info, Tatan let CH have iron... just be mindful of CH.

MB

AH's answer (bold added by me):

Thanks for all the diplo, I must admit my diplo is lacking at the moment with really only cordial relations with yourself. CH and I still exchange a few e-mails but my refusal of the embargo I think has put his nose out of joint a little. I think he does see himself as the puppetmaster of our game and people not going along with him will be blackballed. He has let on that he has access to all the other four religions so he has no need for Confuscinism.

I’d seen Tatans score increasing dramatically over the last few turns so I guess this is his military build up, without iron I think Serdoa is doomed unless he’s managed to get Feudalism for longbows but that will only delay things a few turns while enough cats are bought into play. If I were Tatan I’d be wary of CH, if Tatan attacks Serdoa then a backstab from CH could easily cripple Tatan, I’ve got a seven turn auto renewing NAP with CH so any funny business would give me seven turns to build up my defences.
i’m happy to enter into a info sharing agreement with you, research wise I’m on MC at the moment with a view to going archery – machinery – CS I anticipate that this run would be about 13 turns to complete depending on the cost of new cities.

Increasing the NAP to turn 125 would be fine, no problems on that front

Keep safe laddie

Ad Hoc

Quick thought on AH's research: archery->machinery->CS = ~1200 beakers including pre-req discount. 13T... I could knock them out in 8. AH might be the worst rscher right now.

The NAP extension may prove to be a mistake on my part, depending on whether AH can take TT to the cleaners or not. If he's able to overwhelm TT (it's possible unless he gets to Feud quickly) then I won't be able to do a thing until AH has been able to consolidate. We'll see.

Having said that, do I want to attack AH in the foreseeable future? Arguably not. We've had good relations all game. I've said before I fall on the friendlier end of the scale. It's not optimal sometimes, but at least it's a deficiency I'm aware of.

I think what I'll need to do is present enough defensive strength on my border with TT to force him to either reconsider a NAP-breaking attack, or make him go completely in the other direction and decide AH is an easier target.

That's another mistake on my part - I should have hoarded gold to upgrade to LBs instead of rsch construction. LBs are better deterrents than Cats. The reason I didn't is that as soon as it becomes apparent I have LBs, CH will close borders. But at this point, that's a price I have to be willing to pay.

Assuming TT does continue planning a NAP-breaking strike, that would be disastrous since AH would have free reign on all of TT's land, and I would just sit there defending. Debacle, I can't allow that to happen. I should have seen this earlier, but the solution is to get 2 LBs in each of my border cities. Stat.

I have enough to defend with right now, but what I need is enough to make TT completely dismiss any attack as futile. 3-4T will be sufficient. Do I have that much time? I'll know in 3-4T (or sooner...)



As for the other problem: AH thinks CH is more likely to attack Tatan than AH. Meaning one of two things:
1) Tatan DID extract concessions from CH in exchange for Iron, and CH will attack AH when the time is right (i.e. when AH declares on TT) and he feels 7T aren't enough for AH to build a strong enough defensive force vs what CH brings to the party
2) Tatan DID NOT extract concessions from CH. And is telling him all his military plans. And will get dicked 10 ways from Sunday, particularly by CH who will plow through Tatan's underbelly while Serdoa has to chew through Tatan's attack force first.


1) I can live with. 2) I cannot. Do I think 2) is likely? Not really... but from what I've seen from Tatan so far in PBEM10, I'm not prepared to rule it out. I'm certainly worried about it in light of AH's new info. And that means I have to do something about it.

The question is, how do I approach someone who is CH's puppet, and who I've found diplo extremely challenging with, and tell him his "ally" may in fact be planning on attacking him while his army's away? And what if I'm wrong? Does AH get pissed at me for approaching Tatan with information about AH/CH relations?

Also - asking AH what his NAP status w/ CH is, is one thing. I've been talking to him all game. But my relationship with Tatan so far can be summed up as:

MB: proposal
Tatan: i'm rejecting it since it doesn't favor me
MB: check your neighbor, he's out of control
Tatan: i hate you
MB:
Tatan:

I'm going to run this by Serdoa and see what he thinks. But I think it's inevitable I'll have to contact Tatan and broach the subject. My guess is his answer will be impossible to decipher (i.e. I won't be able to tell if they have a long NAP or if Tatan blindly believes CH won't hit him), but it's worth a try. I've raised concerns about CH before with Tatan, so I at least it won't be completely out of the blue.


What else; had a devious thought while chatting with CH. We were talking about RBP3, and he was congratulating himself on the diplo - and FWIW, i agree he did a great job. I neglected to mention I played a bit part in diplo before checking out - I secured HRE a game-long ally in Ottomans while I was in charge of diplo. If you see a pattern developing, make sure you don't mention it to anyone

Diplo is a strange animal. Right now I'm clearly ahead, in 5T things can flip-flop completely and decisions that seem ok right now (e.g. really working to secure AH as a strong friend) turn out to be bone-headed in hindsight.