WW 46: Wolves Return to Realms Beyond

[Commodore]

It's not like the serial killer was mentioned from day 2. I think after at least night 2 it was not a big surprise that we might have a serial killer among us. I suspect as much on day 3 together with other I remember that I said I believe scooter to be a wolf and pindicator to be a serial killer. That's why I went for pindicator on day 4.

Indeed, and you were on Scooter day 3, although you were carefully signalling willingness to jump off the whole time. Good show, didn't really ping my radar until a later reread.

And to whom would I have jumped off to? I would have jumped off to pindicator - a known serial killer.

Indeed, until the patsy that was GKC got brought up.

[Commodore]

You don't need to convince anyone that SD's been acting anti-town. I saw you lining up the mislynch on me tomorrow if the game's still ongoing then. I know you knew you weren't convincing me here, which is why your effortful post back there was aimed squarely at Naufragar. It's why I figured I'd stop it with the dangle-hams, you're no Wookie.

Isn't that attributing to me what you do? "Lets lynch Charriu and then Serdoa." Does not seem like not lining up the lynches.
And yes, after you basically declared me the next lynch after Charriu, I knew I would not convince you. Wasn't that hard to figure out that you fair and square have either convinced yourself that SD can't be a wolf or that you are playing with him together.

Honestly, everything you posted today is basically again and again "SD has to be innocent, but THIS behavior of someone else is not", just to have someone present you with evidence that "THIS behavior" was shown by SD himself first. And when that happens, you simply ignore it and harp on the next point. And when it is again shown that SD did it, you again just move the goalposts and talk about other stuff.

It's frustrating, I know. Naufragar and I are both in the Superdeath murder/suicide club, so we have a good feel for his character. He takes low-odds shots that fail. And then shoots again. And again.

[Charriu]

You don't need to convince anyone that SD's been acting anti-town. I saw you lining up the mislynch on me tomorrow if the game's still ongoing then. I know you knew you weren't convincing me here, which is why your effortful post back there was aimed squarely at Naufragar. It's why I figured I'd stop it with the dangle-hams, you're no Wookie.

Isn't that attributing to me what you do? "Lets lynch Charriu and then Serdoa." Does not seem like not lining up the lynches.
And yes, after you basically declared me the next lynch after Charriu, I knew I would not convince you. Wasn't that hard to figure out that you fair and square have either convinced yourself that SD can't be a wolf or that you are playing with him together.

Honestly, everything you posted today is basically again and again "SD has to be innocent, but THIS behavior of someone else is not", just to have someone present you with evidence that "THIS behavior" was shown by SD himself first. And when that happens, you simply ignore it and harp on the next point. And when it is again shown that SD did it, you again just move the goalposts and talk about other stuff.

It's frustrating, I know. Naufragar and I are both in the Superdeath murder/suicide club, so we have a good feel for his character. He takes low-odds shots that fail. And then shoots again. And again.

I would say that Naufragar can decide for himself in which club he is.

[Charriu]

You don't need to convince anyone that SD's been acting anti-town. I saw you lining up the mislynch on me tomorrow if the game's still ongoing then. I know you knew you weren't convincing me here, which is why your effortful post back there was aimed squarely at Naufragar. It's why I figured I'd stop it with the dangle-hams, you're no Wookie.

Isn't that attributing to me what you do? "Lets lynch Charriu and then Serdoa." Does not seem like not lining up the lynches.
And yes, after you basically declared me the next lynch after Charriu, I knew I would not convince you. Wasn't that hard to figure out that you fair and square have either convinced yourself that SD can't be a wolf or that you are playing with him together.

Honestly, everything you posted today is basically again and again "SD has to be innocent, but THIS behavior of someone else is not", just to have someone present you with evidence that "THIS behavior" was shown by SD himself first. And when that happens, you simply ignore it and harp on the next point. And when it is again shown that SD did it, you again just move the goalposts and talk about other stuff.

It's frustrating, I know. Naufragar and I are both in the Superdeath murder/suicide club, so we have a good feel for his character. He takes low-odds shots that fail. And then shoots again. And again.

Also you forgot the most important rule of the murder/suicide club:

You do not talk about Murder/Suicide Club

[Serdoa]

You don't need to convince anyone that SD's been acting anti-town. I saw you lining up the mislynch on me tomorrow if the game's still ongoing then. I know you knew you weren't convincing me here, which is why your effortful post back there was aimed squarely at Naufragar. It's why I figured I'd stop it with the dangle-hams, you're no Wookie.

Isn't that attributing to me what you do? "Lets lynch Charriu and then Serdoa." Does not seem like not lining up the lynches.
And yes, after you basically declared me the next lynch after Charriu, I knew I would not convince you. Wasn't that hard to figure out that you fair and square have either convinced yourself that SD can't be a wolf or that you are playing with him together.

Honestly, everything you posted today is basically again and again "SD has to be innocent, but THIS behavior of someone else is not", just to have someone present you with evidence that "THIS behavior" was shown by SD himself first. And when that happens, you simply ignore it and harp on the next point. And when it is again shown that SD did it, you again just move the goalposts and talk about other stuff.

It's frustrating, I know. Naufragar and I are both in the Superdeath murder/suicide club, so we have a good feel for his character. He takes low-odds shots that fail. And then shoots again. And again.

Comm, what is frustrating is that this is not the point, as it was not the point before. It is not that SDs play is not typical for SD (from what I understand from you guys), it is the way you two bounce of each other since the start of the game. That started already with your interactions D1 and it has not changed. You've made sure to save him and speak up for him till D1. Now I am to believe you that SD, who has barely posted, has claimed actions that contradict his own words at that time - not later, not earlier, but at the moment - and who only has shown anti-town behavior, who claims a role that, if the setup you claim we have, is too strong, that this player is obviously town. And I am to believe that because I am told by a player that himself claims a non-provable role that nonetheless should have had him killed already, who despite knowing better willingly lynched a villager because he wanted to save the SK for later and looking back who also made only a very low amount of actual contributions towards scum hunting but instead mostly claimed "X is scum, because he looked funny".

I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to do that. Maybe naufragar views it differently and then so be it.

[Charriu]

Also, Commodore, just because you are a veteran does not mean you have to try to force the others to do what you want. They can think for themselves.

[Serdoa]

Maybe there is one more point I want to make:

Commodore, you love boasting and gloating, you enjoy the fun of writing these posts, of wordplay and puns. Showing off your skills as a talented writer. I understand that. And I understand that that is why you didn't stop with Rowain. But all it did was upset the person behind the computer. It didn't get us a wolf, it got us a villager lynched. And I believe you should have realized what was going on. But you didn't want to, and maybe that is not because of the role you play in this game, but because of the way you perceive yourself.  

If you are playing for the village, I urge you as I urged you with Rowain: Stop being full of yourself and oh so happy that you solved everything. I understand why you do, I did so myself in many games. My self-image didn't include being wrong. But please look neutrally at what was presented by me. Because I simply go by the rule: If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it behaves like a duck... then it probably is a duck (wolf).

I really get the strong feeling that you have decided that somehow there must be a grand face off at the end, the glorious last battle. Just because that resonates with who you are. And it is obviously much more prestigious than just lynching the one player that is offensively playing anti-town from the beginning. But I am certain, it is the wrong play.

[Commodore]

Maybe there is one more point I want to make:

Commodore, you love boasting and gloating, you enjoy the fun of writing these posts, of wordplay and puns. Showing off your skills as a talented writer. I understand that. And I understand that that is why you didn't stop with Rowain. But all it did was upset the person behind the computer. It didn't get us a wolf, it got us a villager lynched. And I believe you should have realized what was going on. But you didn't want to, and maybe that is not because of the role you play in this game, but because of the way you perceive yourself.  

If you are playing for the village, I urge you as I urged you with Rowain: Stop being full of yourself and oh so happy that you solved everything. I understand why you do, I did so myself in many games. My self-image didn't include being wrong. But please look neutrally at what was presented by me. Because I simply go by the rule: If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it behaves like a duck... then it probably is a duck (wolf).

I really get the strong feeling that you have decided that somehow there must be a grand face off at the end, the glorious last battle. Just because that resonates with who you are. And it is obviously much more prestigious than just lynching the one player that is offensively playing anti-town from the beginning. But I am certain, it is the wrong play.

My gut has been 50/50 on these lynches thus far, but I'm more confident on my Superdeath read than I've been on anyone but Scooter, back when you were trying to save him by lynching GKC. What follows logically if he is village and honest is the case I outlined:

Okay, that's sufficient wriggling for me. Naufragar, Superdeath, attend.

As anyone not spilling tons of ink inventing elaborate theories about THREE scum factions or latching convoluted never-before-heard JOAT bomb abilities can tell, the mysteries are all solved. Superdeath has been playing a hilariously anti-town game, but his quixotic targeting, as bad as it was, follows from his own comments. HE IS BELIEVABLE. 

Thus, the sole remaining question I left open in my night-kill speculations, the one that I left open like I left open the silly Jack-of-all-Trades bomber theory, was that of "why did we have a night with just one kill?" Sure, Pindicator, who's been decent-to-middling at scumhunting might have shot Serdoa and I healed him, but there's still the third unexplained kill with SK, wolves, and Superdeath all killing. Except, obviously, that's not a mystery at all. THE WOLVES SHOT PINDICATOR AND HE WAS 1-SHOT BULLETPROOF. 

This leads us to a situation where the wolves, worried, are nearing lylo but they have a killer who can target them still on the loose. They rapidly figure out that it's likely a serial killer, because mild bulletproofing is a common power for SKs to have. They can try to kill him again, but wouldn't it be better if they could lynch him?

Tally as of post 961:

Lynch votes
5 votes: Rowain (Commodore, Chevalier Mal Fet, Rowain, naufragar, pindicator)
2 votes: pindicator (Serdoa, Charriu)
1 votes: Chevalier Mal Fet (superdeath)

Yes, yes it would. So much better if they didn't have to waste another shot at Pindicator. So much better if they could keep anti-town but actually village Rowain alive (and my fault for turning him against us, I'll cop to it. I was so convinced he was a wolf acting indignant...). Alas, the villager who they've been buddying up to the last could days didn't jump, and so they had to fall back on Plan B: Nightkill Pindicator again and hope the bulletproofing was one-time-only. It worked. And hey, look, Superdeath made himself the mislynch of the day by admitting to mass-murder. But Naufragar, you know darned well that this horrible accidental murder spree is entirely in keeping with Superdeath, just as you know from his character that such an audacious lie isn't in his nature. 

So Serdoa and Charriu, well done. It was a good plan. The speculations were fun, and you've played a cautious game. But I think we're done now.

I have to hope that Naufragar is village, because I don't see myself swaying you, Serdoa. I understand what you're saying, and if indeed Superdeath is scum, then we're ducked.

[Serdoa]

Comm,

1) We are ducked because you don't consider changing your stance.
2) You have been ticked off by me giving it thought that you are not a villager. That led you to declare that Charriu and I are the remaining wolves. That goes hand in hand with your theory that there has to be 2 more wolves. And as you stated, toying the idea there is just one left is something you consider anti-town. Yet, in the same argument you further argued that I try to line up the mislynches on SD and then on you. But that makes no sense Comm - if we are at LyLo, there is no need to line up any more mislynches. Today and that is it.

And that is why I ask you to reconsider your stance. Because you have made up a theory in your mind that seemingly fits, because everything that would contradict it you ignore.

[superdeath]

Serdoa and Charriu, both of you claim Superdeath's story is unbelievable, but what else explains the killings? Do we have a second Serial Killer, this time with multiple shots? If Superdeath is a wolf, he'd have to be in a separate pack to explain the double kills. Possible, but I'm doubtful.

I may be falling victim to WIFOM, but I don't think any wolf is going to make the insanely anti-town confession that Superdeath did. He's been as deadly to villagers as the wolves and could have single-handedly resolved the Pindicator-Scooter thing, but kept silent. I was sitting at my screen slack-jawed, because both of these are astounding. I don't think a wolf admits to either.

Unfortunately, this leaves me in a rough position. I believe Commodore is town-cleared. He claimed Doctor which is an incredibly risky claim. I think Superdeath is village (although I will feel very stupid if he's a brazen wolf). I know I'm village. That leaves Serdoa and Charriu. If we have a multishot vig, three wolves and a SK seems pretty weak opposition. Perhaps I'm wrong. If there were 4 wolves, then by my count they'd have to be Serdoa and Charriu. Comm protected Serdoa Night 3 and that night we only had one night kill. So it's tough for me to think Serdoa's the wolf. Therefore, Charriu.

I've overthought votes in the past. If someone wants to explain to what effect Superdeath is telling this particular lie, I'm receptive. As for Charriu's questions to SD, I'm especially interested in SD's answer to number 1:

Why would he want to kill Lewwyn in night 2? He voted for scooter on day 2 together with Lewwyn. It would have made much more sense to kill scooter, because he was a bigger suspect on day 2.

Other unresolved questions I have about the game: Why was Commodore, the self-avowed village Doctor, left alive for 2 nights? Surely he's a high priority wolf target. Why was Pindicator killed Night 4? He was an easy lynch today.

Answer: I killed Lewwyn because i truly thought that he was perhaps posting up a storm to confuse people. Bad judgement on my part obviously.

Other unresolved questions I have about the game: Why was Commodore, the self-avowed village Doctor, left alive for 2 nights? Surely he's a high priority wolf target. Why was Pindicator killed Night 4? He was an easy lynch today.

Well, whoever is the wolf/wolves, they think a fellow killer is more of a threat. Killing Pindicator makes sense last night, and they knew darn well that I didn't trust Pin and there was zero chance of me protecting him. I claimed explicitly in the last couple minutes of Night 3, although a canny wolf might have picked up the breadcrumbs Night 2, so it's only one night I've lived. I'm surprised too, though:

Superdeath, why was I never targeted in your wild murder spree of all villagers, including some of the most useful?

I didnt target you due to your defense of me. Pretty simple. Even if you turned out to be a wolf, you kept me alive to well..... Kill more villagers sadly.

if Itchy McTrigger can't stop blasting a villager every night as a villager.

Just like that settler all those games ago... i sometimes have a bit of bad judgement.

Whatever role SD has, it is not one playing for town.

I dont know how i could possibly be anymore truthful. 

It's frustrating, I know. Naufragar and I are both in the Superdeath murder/suicide club, so we have a good feel for his character. He takes low-odds shots that fail. And then shoots again. And again.

Naufragar im fairly sure attacked me first.. Unless im forgetting what happened in that game. .