SPOILERS : Twinkletoes' Mystery Thread - PBEM7

[Twinkletoes89]

War Elephants are banned. Researched Construction (only one turn tech!)

I now will research Metal Casting (2 turns at 70%) and then Machinery (not much longer).

After that it is speed along towards Gunpowder and pray war doesn't come before it!

If nothing else, I am delighted with my research rate in this game, I have a lot of well matured hamlets, villages and towns - and my capital is a research powerhouse and will soon have a Academy from a GS from Zama. Left alone I can research with the best of them, so I am hopeful that my cooldown will give me the time to build the catapults and Maces I need to defend.

[Whosit]

How much production are your best cities getting, and how much whipping can your high-food/commerce cities endure? I can only assume that you believe war is coming, so it would be best to act as though war will come in 10 turns. Do you have Open Borders, or any way to determine what forces might be arrayed against you? Do you think that any of the other players would be willing to assist you in the event of a war? Who's on the other side of Moogle?

Argh, just noticed. I see you are building Walls. Stop that! Walls are waste of hammers! It would be far better to put those hammers into Catapults or anything else, really. If an attack is coming, assume the attacker will have a lot of catapults. Will 60% defenses stop that? No. Moogle probably wouldn't even have to stop to knock down the defense. Just suicide a couple catapults, and it's all over.

Troops, not walls!

[Twinkletoes89]

Production wise, it is mainly 4/5 turn catapults on the 'front' except in the capital where they are 1-turn builds. I can whip them, but I am going to research Monarchy (1 turn) and revolt into HR just before I need to whip so the happiness will survive.

I have moved off building walls - they were only placeholder builds for the turn before Construction was completed. They are all on catapult builds except for Philippi which is finishing its Barracks first.

I have just teched HBR in 1 turn too, so if I get a stable up quick in the capital, I can likely get some double flanking HAs out which will counter the catapults well backed up by my axes.

Research-wise, I am going for Monarchy->MC->Aesthetics(SoZ)/Machinery. I will be able to fund this because I am getting some 'free' gold from scooter. He wants to cash a GM in my capital, so he has agreed to pay a 'toll' of 10% of the total cash he earns from it. It was a stab in the dark diplomatically but that gold could come in very handy!

Serdoa has guaranteed me a safe flank, plus will send a unit through my territory to Moogle's land and scout for me.

[Twinkletoes89]

Ok well time to fill you guys in on what has delayed the game for the last day and a half.

Moogle as expected moved his forces onto the border the final turn of the NAP. His forces were larger than I expected and of higher quality - a few maces and a decent stack of mounted pillagers.

I could have taken down a decent portion of the stack, but would have lost likely 2 of my 3 border cities and pillaged me big style. If I lose my mature cottages in Zama and Pharsalus, my game is done as I am a strong researcher and without them I will fall back into insignificance.

I have thus been in negotiations with Moogle to avoid war and preserve my chances of competing. This is the final agreement drawn up a few hours ago.

*Phillipi and Actium are to be ceded to the Malazan Empire. In return, the Malazan Empire will provide the Ottoman Empire with 6 gold per turn for research and maintenance goals.

*The Ottoman Empire pledges to beeline Gunpowder Technology and prepare to effectively train Janissary units. In addition, the Ottoman empire will complete construction of the Statue of Zeus to aid future war efforts.
*The trained Janissary units are to assist the Malazan Empire in a future mutual war against the Incan Empire. The Malazan empire will likewise prepare accordingly for this war. A tentative date for this war will be turn 110, but may be subject to revision depending on preparation and other developments.
*For every two Incan cities taken during this war, one former Ottoman city will be returned to its control. The city of Anticum will revert to Ottoman control prior to Philippi.
*During this period, a non-aggression pact will exist between the Malazan and Ottoman empires, bound further by caps on espionage and non-unit spying agreements, and an agreement not to support conflict against the other nation, or fight wars on each other by proxy (specifics yet to be determined). This NAP will last until and through the war against the Incan empire, and will continue to be in effect for an additional, yet to be determined period after the conflict ends.
*Open borders between the Ottoman and Malazan empires will continue to exist to promote trade route income for both nations. In addition, the Malazan and Ottoman empires will continue to seek other opportunities for long-tern cooperation.

This would leave the conditions of the NAP itself. I would propose the following:

*The NAP will last for 20 turns after the conflict with the Incans has ended (ie, neither of our nations is at war with scooter any longer), at which point the 10-turn auto-renewal and 10-turn cooldown replace it again. Depending on how the agreement develops, this NAP can be renegotiated to last longer but the currently proposed duration would be its minimum length.
*We agree to stop spending espionage points against one another. If the agreement develops into closer relations, they will no longer be necessary.
*For the duration of the Non-aggression pact, we pledge to not particpate in effort (diplomatic, military or otherwise) that weakens the other nation. This could be characterized as (but not exclusively limited to) passing sensitive information to other nations, or provide resources that are to be used in conflict against each other.

In addition, the terms of this agreement are to be considered secret, and cannot be shared with either the Incan or Indian nations or its leadership.

I am hopeful you find these terms agreeable.

Sincerely,
-Emperor SleepingMoogle I

I lose my shrine (hopefully temporarily) and Philippi (no major loss) but not without the prospect of getting them back peacefully. Most importantly I keep Zama (which he wanted badly) which is my 2nd most important city, will generate a Great Scientist very soon which will either boost my tech rate greater still or help me on the rush to Liberalism.

My research rate shall stay strong enough to tech through to Gunpowder before anyone else as noone even has paper yet and I am halfway through Education. I may also make a stab at Liberalism for Nationalism but that may be a bit too risky.

I can then focus on building Janissaries for a war with scooter. While this gains Moogle more than I, I get my cities back if it is as successful as I imagine and so it isn't for nothing.

Its not a perfect treaty, but I lose less than I would through warfare and do not lose my one golden chance to be a late-game factor in the game.

I may regret saying this, but what do you think guys?

[Twinkletoes89]

Well sod that, Serdoa now decides to join the legion of doom!

For someone who I have actively tried to help and cultivate a relationship with, he has then just cut contact and now come back with demands that just fuck me up basically.

Here's his message:

Hi TT,

I have now looked up what happened. And I have brought as well 2 stacks right up your borders and if SleepingMoogle has not more units then what my warrior can see, I have easily more units then SleepingMoogle had... so, we probably should discuss now if you want to have peace with me and help in crushing SleepingMoogle or if you rather would want me as enemy and hand over the game to SleepingMoogle.

Don't get me wrong TT, normally I would not be so blunt but instead we would talk now about me gifting you units and stuff. But plain simple, I am not sure if you would really use them all that well and additionally you told me several turns ago that SleepingMoogle will attack you and still you have not got much more military. Look at the demos - I started building up my military after you told me that SleepingMoogle will attack you and still I am not only clearly in front of you but also I produced much more units in the same timeframe. If I would let you go on with this, trusting that you would now produce finally more units, we probably would talk in 10 turns about your 3 Horse Archers you have produced and what to do with them. So, I don't want to offend you or anything but I rather would be sure that SleepingMoogle will be crushed and not run away with the game (what he is now doing with your additional cities which he had NO costs to aquire).

My proposal therefore is:

- You gift me Silarus River as well as the city north of it (I think thats Alesia) on your next turn
- You will produce in Pharsalus and Zama what I tell you to produce for the next 15 turns to come and will use the configuration I tell you for it
- You will build roads with your workers where I tell you to build them
- You will run 100% gold for now and gift me what you have each turn, so that I can run to Knights and upgrade my HAs
- In around 15-20 turns, I will crush SleepingMoogle with probably 30+ Knights and some other stuff and return you the cities you have ceded to SleepingMoogle as well as the cities I conquer from him on the main continent which are not right next to scooters border.

Do you agree? Or do I have to take the cities needed from you by force, therefore delay the attack on SleepingMoogle and risk that he will have so much of a technological edge that we can as well cede the game to him?

Kind regards,
Serdoa

What a doozy.

Well I'm not making the mistake I made in PB1 of signing conflicting agreements, so it seems I may have to make a 'Dunkirk' exit from the main continent.

I won't break my word to Moogle as I made a deal with him first, and although Serdoa's deal may well help me more I must refuse it on principle.

I will try and reason with him, but I have little hope for success.

I had this coming really, I played fast and loose about 10 turns too long and have been punished for it twice over. I had to keep my research going to get to Janissaries if I could help it as that was my only chance to overcome the numbers I was facing. It was my only chance to win from 4th place or at least reach a higher placing.

If all diplo fails with Serdoa, I may well tell Moogle to go for me too just so Serdoa doesn't get everything for such a 'douchebag' message. If he had been more considerate, he wouldn't face this

[Twinkletoes89]

You know what, sod trying to compromise when there is nothing left to compromise.

This is the message I will send him unless I hear sound advice from my lurkers in the next few hours.

Serdoa,

For someone who has actively tried to help you and has attempted to continue along this path, I am disgusted at your message. You are being blatantly opportunistic and show no respect towards myself. There are ways and means of saying what you wanted to say in a much less derogatory fashion and whether your disdain for my abilities is warranted or not, to express so in such a fashion is highly rude and uncivil.

I refuse your proposal. You can come at me with your units, you can kill and take my cities if you please, but my army will oppose you and only you. My northern cities may well be left undefended and the NAP between myself and Moogle invalidated and suddenly you are conquering a lot less land than you hoped to achieve.

I will not be some puppet state for you to bend to your own ends like an overlord. Now either come back with a sensible mature offer or go ahead and kill me.

If you do choose to kill me, you will regret the sending of your last message as it is the sole reason why I am now so willing to help Moogle instead of you.

Its up to you,

TT

[Twinkletoes89]

Here is what I have sent Moogle as well:

Emperor Moogle,

It appears your warnings have come true even quicker than you may have imagined. Serdoa has sent me a highly insulting letter making demands for peace and now I must weigh my options.

I will not make any agreement with him that breaks any facet of our agreement, I can assure you of that. Seen as that will likely cause imminent war, I ask you to give me your word that you will invalidate our agreement as soon as war erupts with Serdoa.

I will mobilize all my troops against Serdoa and will empty my northern cities. I want you to pick your targets now and tell me what to vacate. Take all that you can hold and I will not oppose you, even taking my capital. I may survive temporarily on my eastern isle, so do not attack there yet until I have come up with a plan for that.

Before the message I may have let him get away with it, but now he has sent me such a message I am firmly in favour of your victory over his and will assist you in any way possible.

Yours sincerely,

TT

[novice]

I may regret saying this, but what do you think guys?

I think we're not supposed to intervene? We're paying attention, though.

EDIT: Maybe Whosit has some input.

[Twinkletoes89]

Yeah it was mainly inviting Whosit or Ky to comment. I am sure you others will be commenting in the lurker thread, and I am disappointed to reveal that there is even more.

scooter weighs in:

Twinkletoes,

Thanks for the update!

How exactly do you expect to get those back now? I guess this is what I'm seeing... You knew war was coming just like SleepingMoogle did, but you apparently didn't really prepare judging by the power graphs... Now the situation is the same, except he gets two cities for free, so he is up two cities (with all the buildings AND with no turns of revolt) and you are down two cities, and you expect to be able to out-produce him and take them back?

Hopefully that doesn't sound confrontational, it's more just confusion on my part... This whole thing is confusing and I'm trying to make sense of it... I'm never nuts about someone handing over free cities to another player, so I admit I'm mildly agitated, as the fairness of the game is badly screwed with when that happens.

Thanks,
scooter

The bolded bit really pisses me off. He's getting it too. My response (already sent this time as I have had enough of this on today of all days!)

scooter,

What is it with you and Serdoa today? Both of you have suddenly changed your tones in diplomacy from friendly to (especially in Serdoa's case) outright rude.

I did have a plan to take them back, but alas it will never come to fruition as now Serdoa has decided to get in on the act and attack me instead. His rudeness will cost him extremely dearly which I am sure he will pass on to you.

I did my best to prepare, but alas he was producing units long before I did, and through my own mistakes I was not in a position I would like to be in to defend. In my estimation, even if I took out his stack I would have lost at least the two cities I gifted plus at least one more. I would also have been heavily pillaged and I would have been a lot worse off.

You both are throwing a strop because he got two cities for free - but I have to do what is best for my nation and nobody else's now. A war would hurt me a lot more than him, and signing those two cities away gave me a chance of survival and reaching Janissaries at a time where my military may do something. In the position I was in on the eve of war, I am sure you would have swallowed that up for the chance of recovery rather than the certainty of mediocrity that a painful war would bring.

I am also insulted by the suggestion that this gifting has in any way tarnished the fairness of the game. I played what I deemed to be the best move I had to get out of the position my own mistakes had led me to. I did not gift to screw either of you, so do not imply that I may have done so.

You, I believe are bringing in the history of PBEM3 into your implications and I find that disappointing. I made mistakes in that game too, a huge one which I am hopeful I will never repeat - but mistakes happen and in both cases I had to make the best deal I could and in both cases I have done so. Were they to your detriment? Yes. But were they unfair? Certainly not.

I warn you now, as I have warned Serdoa - that sending me emails which seek to imply that I am being unfair, tarnishing the game or making insulting criticisms about my play (as Serdoa has) will only result in a situation to both of your detriment - which is my full assistance to Moogle and whatever that entails.

As you can tell, I am angry. My tone may be a little harsh in this email, but I have always tried my best in these games and have never sort to undermine the integrity of the games I have been in and I do not like to hear otherwise. Also, as it is my birthday today, I am a little disappointed to have to deal with two 'disappointing' emails which could have been phrased a lot better if the feelings of the receiver had been taken into account.

Yours sincerely,

TT

Angry yes, will I regret sending it? Hell no.

I am sick to the back teeth of some of the diplomacy I have encountered in these games.

I would also just like to say to anyone else who has the idea that I have acted unfairly and against the spirit of the games I have played in, especially PBEMs 3 & 7, that they are 100% wrong. I am a highly inexperienced player who is learning the hard way about RB games. I made tonnes of mistakes in PBEM 3 (some whoppers too) and I have made mistakes in this one. I am sure I will make mistakes in the following ones too because I am learning. I have never gifted cities except when they have been in the best interest of my civilisation, and that is what I am supposed to judge and do.

Anyone who doesn't understand that knows what they can do.

[Twinkletoes89]

Here is my edited and sent message to Serdoa:

Serdoa,

For someone who has actively tried to help you and has attempted to continue along this path, I am disgusted at your message. You are being blatantly opportunistic and show no respect towards myself. There are ways and means of saying what you wanted to say in a much less derogatory fashion and whether your disdain for my abilities is warranted or not, to express so in such a fashion is highly rude and uncivil.

I refuse your proposal. You can come at me with your units, you can kill and take my cities if you please, but my army will oppose you and only you. I will not be some puppet state for you to bend to your own ends like an overlord. Now either come back with a sensible mature offer or go ahead and kill me.

As you can tell, I am angry (if not furious) with yourself right now and your pal scooter for he has followed suit. I would not have even considered that I would come to this situation, but unlike yourself I will not make threats, only this single promise.

If you attack me, you will regret the sending of your last message.

Its up to you,

TT