[54 Spoilers] Nothing to see here! Miguelito and Rusten's max score game

[Miguelito]

So, what do we do about it?
- keep a scout close by his cap until we get bronze online? (that hurts!)
- build 2 warriors instead of warrior/scout while growing the capital ( not nice either)?
- settle for copper (sure), which I feel will be in the south, and I hope in reach of the deer, although I think Comm might be sufficiently mean to make us choose whether we want it or food first ring
- settle ON copper?
-all of these?

The trouble is of course that we whip the settler the turn we get BW, so very little time to react. It would be quite problematic if copper was by the SE coast where there may still be a seafood in the fog. The first warrior may have to go scouting?

[Rusten]

Those sound too extreme, we don't need to overreact, and finding him this early is good as we'll have his power graph within 10 turns. It's a bit early to tell how to countermeasure -- for now I'd just focus on tracking down his start.

I'm starting to like ivory as 2nd city, but with the holkan threat from the north that's a reason to settle towards the south first I guess. How many turns between the settlers? We can chop another one quickly to settle copper with, can't we?

I might make myself a sandbox later today to get a better idea of our possibilities. Settling ivory first saves some worker turns on roads and keeps more food in capital which can be helpful for 4 --> 2 settler whips.

[Miguelito]

Feel free to use the spreadsheet as well (link is in 2nd post). To my shame, I haven't set up a sandbox yet, but was also planning to. If you can, that would of course be welcome.

2nd settler depends on whether we want a 3rd worker first (do we?). Also chopping it out straight away is a bit awkward, as we'd have to halt city growth every turn a chop comes in.
My current thinking was to use the turns when the cap crowds back to road for 2nd city and build a second mine, then chop so the hammers come in when the cap is back at size 3 (4?) already, working 2 mines and the pig while the 2nd city gets the sheep.

I've been a bit busy and have relied ion the standing micro plan which is pretty clear until t29, and after that a lot may change fast because it's when copper is revealed and the settler congress out. As said, we would not have Agriculture in time for the elephant city, but could of course camp the 2nd phants, or mine copper if it's there.

But my current feeling from t29 on is settler (blue dot) -> warrior -> settler (elephant) -> worker or axe, keeping a close eye on Elkad. I lean towards keeping the scout in his general area, but building a new one in the cap instead of one warrior in order to scout the south / guard the settling party.

[Rusten]

Forgot that we won't have agriculture, then definitely blue dot first yes.

The spreadsheet is useful, but I like to get my eyes on the game as well. Better for exploring options in my experience.

[Miguelito]

Hello Elkad,
I met your scout with my own on t8, and then moved out of your vision when I played t9 early. With turn order observed,  you would have seen my scout on the jungles hill 2S1W of yours,  facing towards the NE.
Cheers and enjoy your game!

Heh, moved to the same hill before I read this.  I see you.
Thanks.

So, now I assume we are friends because we were so awfully honest and he wouldn't ever rush us with his pointysticks, right ?

In that regard, there is some uplifting news as Elkad seems to have decided to get intel on Mr. Cairo first:


Doesn't look like hellbent on rushing Byzantium to me.

As we are talking sandboxes, here is an overview shot:


I don't think I'll be making one tonight, but will during the next days and then share it. If you want to go ahead, you're welcome, of course .

Anything to add to the player analysis?

[Miguelito]

t11




It isn't Elkad in the north after all. That's Cairo, and there are just 10 tiles between our capitals. Well that's more than in PB49 I guess, but it still makes it really awkward for both of us to fit a city in there:

• Orange dot is really good, with the caveat that it gets little in terms of defense against Cairo (he would want to move onto the hill probably, so we'd have the river, that's something I suppose?). So a somewhat greedy play.
  
• The alternative site would be the red dot. On a hill, but straight up worse. Purple dot would have to move 1E as well, making it much less nice for the Oracle play. Cairo might also see it as provocative, particularly if there is no other food for Cairo to settle S of his capital (but seafood seems likely).
  
• otoh, Cairo has virtually no chance to settle a hill city vs us
  
• we are not getting those dyes peacefully
  

Ideally imo it would play out like this: We settle orange dot, Cairo settles for seafood and the cow and then somewhere by the dyes. We settle on the coastal FPH, which gets the fish 2nd ring, and maybe somehting else? If the cow is in the second ring of Cairo's city, that seems like a quite relaxed situation. If it's first ring, it's more tense - but we would still have to settle that hill because that's the only spot then where a city of ours can fit in the NE.
As I said, I want friendship, but this is making it no easier.


Should I change espionage from Elkad to Cairo? Elkad could still be to our NW/W, and if that's the case he's the more immediate threat. Cairo has stopped spening EP on me, after 3 turns of 2 per turn, likely to keep up with Elkad (I should check next turn). So I'll leave it on Elkad for now.

[Rusten]

That's very interesting. Let's scout the area first and then make a big decision, but generally speaking I like red dot more now. We need to know if there's more food east. Good chance of seafood at least.

I'd keep EP on Elkad. By the time Cairo can do something vicious we'll have enough EP on both of them. Holkans, OTOH, can arrive super early. I'm pleased that it's Cairo north and not Elkad TBH.

Nothing much to add to the player analysis, except perhaps that Elkad played (and was a regular) as early as in my 2008 pitbosses, so don't expect him to change radically from recent games.

edit: I guess my only real disagreement would be Cairo's cataphractability. I think he too will be ripe for the picking.

[Rusten]

I just checked where Elkad's scout comes from and it appears he's north or at least NW of Cairo so I'm fine either way on the EP situation. Maybe even slight lean on Cairo, but IDK. I have a hard time seeing Elkad's scout come from that direction on that turn and him being right next to us to the west.

[Miguelito]

That's very interesting. Let's scout the area first and then make a big decision, but generally speaking I like red dot more now. We need to know if there's more food east. Good chance of seafood at least.

I'd keep EP on Elkad. By the time Cairo can do something vicious we'll have enough EP on both of them. Holkans, OTOH, can arrive super early. I'm pleased that it's Cairo north and not Elkad TBH.

what do you like about red dot? Just the strategic position? Well, you're right that we can discuss this in detail in a few turns when we are done unfogging

Nothing much to add to the player analysis, except perhaps that Elkad played (and was a regular) as early as in my 2008 pitbosses, so don't expect him to change radically from recent games.

I knew he has been around since I first lurked here -of course your date is a lot earlier still, I just get the feeling that he is very busy with his job and as a result puts less effort into planning than before. I used to regard him as solid lower middle class, but both PB49 and the civforum game gave me some doubts. Maybe i nthe latter he jsut got frustrated by bad luck and deity costs and stopped caring if the plays were silly - but if that can happen it can be in our favour here as well.

edit: I guess my only real disagreement would be Cairo's cataphractability. I think he too will be ripe for the picking.

My scars from PB49 may cloud my judgement, but when was the last time Cairo got successfully invaded? He mentioned in his PB49 thread that he was eliminated once in all of his games, so it must be there somewhere.
PB52:

have a look at his recent posts to get an impression on how cautiously he operates

I mean, if all goes to plan here, it might still happen, but I can only imagine with overwhelming force. Or grab a few cities if he gets attacked from the other side.
But basically, I think he makes for a good friendly neighbour - tough to swallow, but should fall back in expansion, so together with his personality we shouldn't have to worry a lot about him attacking.

I just checked where Elkad's scout comes from and it appears he's north or at least NW of Cairo so I'm fine either way on the EP situation. Maybe even slight lean on Cairo, but IDK. I have a hard time seeing Elkad's scout come from that direction on that turn and him being right next to us to the west.

I think the two possibilities are that he's to our NW - probably closer to Cairo - and was circling around his own capital, or he is to Cairo's north and walked past his capital to get to know more of the world.

[Rusten]

what do you like about red dot? Just the strategic position?

Cairo's cataphractability has more to do with leader/civ pick and geogrpahical position than the player himself. You asked earlier how to deal with aggressive redcoats: You nip them in the bud.
Cairo the player loves medieval and renaissance infrastructure + liberalism too, which could put him at his weakest when we're at our strongest.