RB PBEM #1 - Gandhi [spoilers]

[Ruff_Hi]

email back from Dreylin

Hi Ruff,

Guess we're going to have to work on our communication if one of us is
going to misconstrue every other e-mail! 9-)

I must admit that I'd assumed that each start had a pre-Calendar Happy
resource based on what I've seen so far of the map. Maybe your Scouts
have been too busy enjoying roast pork in my neighbourhood to spot the
shinies in yours.... 9-)

Tech: well I'm not sure if HBR is my first choice from the options to
research tbh, I really referenced it since it's the only one I can
start research on right now. If you've taken Maths & sooooo Alpha, I
think Monarchy may be my preference. If you're pencilling anything in,
I think that's what you should put me down for.

Prophet: I'll tell you up front that I looked at your proposal and
thought that even if it might be fair value for the GP, it's still far
more than I'm willing to commit to at this stage of the game. Maybe by
the time you get your second Prophet, I might be in a position to
agree to some of your terms, but right now that sort of commitment
would stunt my growth far too much for the return I'd get. Let me give
you my perspective on your individual points and see if you think that
there still might be room to negotiate a deal:

- I have no idea how my brain made 2h/5g into 2g/5h, but where 2gpt
(with multipliers) would have been a decent deal (since I get a return
of 2gpt right away), 5gpt is going to cost me in the short run, and
won't start paying me back for a lot longer.

- I could probably agree to supply a Warrior along with the Settler -
not that you need it since you have a Wall to protect you from Barbs.

- Clearly you don't expect me to give you a carte blanche to choose
any spot to settle, so I'll assume you mean that if the location is in
any two civ's border zone, we will agree to where the city will be
placed. *Actually, I'll come back to this later*

- Responsibility for Religion spread is not a cheap task to expect me
to undertake with no bounding parameters. certainly I could be
persuaded to contribute a set number of missionaries on a particular
schedule - e.g. one every 20t for the next 100t - but cannot agree to
anything as open-ended as you suggest.

- Closing Borders on demand has to be a flat-out no in this situation.
Without a longer-term cooperation agreement in place between us, there
is absolutely no way I can allow you (or anyone else) to dictate my
foriegn policy. Now if your intention was to deny ROP through my lands
to access yours - to prevent an enemy attack - then I could certainly
agree to a clause along those lines.

Going back to the city site, the biggest asset I can offer right now
is land; I know we're getting into RB/Templars territory, but
ultimately our border will come down to where we both are willing to
reach to in order to claim land, or where we negotiate them to be. We
can take a Templars/Imperio approach and draw an arbitrary line at the
half-way point between our two Capitals and say that land is
rightfully ours, but I'm not going to take that approach because a)
it's a stupid idea, b) I don't actually know how much land is
available to you, c) that line probably doesn't generate defensible
city sites. So my suggestion would be that we look at the area along
what is likely to be our borders, and I make some concessions about
what land I ultimately claim as mine. Maybe the city I plant for you
is along that border, and acts as a sign of good faith in the border
arrangement.

BTW, given our recent misinterpretations I want to make clear that I
in no way intend any of that previous paragraph to be taken as a
threat; I'm just trying to say how I see the situation, and get an
idea across about how we can deal with it.

If you think that there's still a chance of us swinging a deal, maybe
we should take this into chat and negotiate in person - though I'm
quite happy either way. You know where I am on Gmail....

Cheers,

All of his responses are totally reasonable from his point of view. I was just throwing ideas against the wall to see what stuck. Maybe I summarize and ask him if he has any crazy ideas to contribute that might work.

[Ruff_Hi]

and my reply ...

Dreylin,

Lets pencil in Maths for Monarchy - no commitment either way but an understanding that this deal might be made in future - ok?

Re the GP, Let me summarize your statements so that we are on the same page ...

1) Gold - to expense to start with
2) warrior - ok
3) location - lets work on it to see if we can arrive at a suitable location
4) missionaries - ok, but with a max cap
5) Close Borders at my order - NO! Maybe an anti-war restriction

I hope that I have captured what you are saying. My feedback - pretty much what I expected. As I said, I was throwing things out there to see what might stick. Do you have any further 'crazy' ideas that might work?

I think the summary at the moment is that giving up the GP costs me a fair bit of grunt (5g/2h is huge at the moment) and paying for that would hurt you too much in the short term. Maybe your 'lets discuss when you get a 2nd GP might be a better option - something to consider down the track.

Re LAND. No way do I want any 'line on the map' silliness. However, I do want to locate my city sites to support the natural defensive nature of the land we find ourselves in. I'm still busy mapping out the silly place and trying to grapple with dot maps. There are areas of the map that I totally think of as MINE and no doubt there are areas that you think of as YOURS. I don't think we are going to reach any hard and fast resolution to this - guess we just keep talking and seeing how our two civs can work together.

That said - when I first got a feel for the map, I thought that I would hate to be in your place - 4 civs to guard against. However, as the map has taken shape, I have found little pockets of protected land, even in the middle of the map. I think that Sullla has provided us with a very nicely crafted map.

Ruff

I don't think we are going to get anywhere with this first Priest - I get such a huge boost from it and Dreylin cannot afford to compensate me at the moment. Guess I settle him in LQ.

[Ruff_Hi]

email from mh - it seems everyone wants to trade me Monarchy.

Hi,

I would favour Monarchy, as it unlocks my happiness resource.
I propose Monarchy (265) for Maths+Fishing (255). Almost even.
I would sweeten the deal with first trading rights on my spare wines (provided you have spare resources I need).

Presumably that would mean a deal Monarchy for Alphabet with soooo.
Since I have not met him yet, can you please pass on the message (OOC: I don't want to breach MP protocol by talking to a civ I have not met).

Of course the whole setup can only happen once soooo has Alphabet. Try to get an ETA from him.
I could choose it next turn myself with an ETA of around 13turns currently. That will go down as I grow.

Since Fishing is of no great value for me at the moment, I am taking it on solely as a way to get Sailing and the possibility to trade.
Therefore I would ask you to give me Sailing for Archery or Meditation?


Regards
mh aka Charlemagne

and my reply

mh,

Thanks for the tech trade offer. I have a 'close to inked' proposal involving Monarchy with another player - it is not final, but it is close. I will talk to sooooo re alphabet and you (and get an ETA) - can you talk to Athlete about a tech trade as I have not met him.

Ruff

[Ruff_Hi]

FF: Barracks in 3
LQ: Corn Farm finished, grows to size 2, borders pop - it is all happening!
Tech: Writing in 3

Workers
- just finished corn farm, moving to pasture horses next, then a few mines at LQ

Scouts
- Looking for Athlete
- Trying to get un-stuck from the bottle neck and then make its way NE to locate sooooo's cities.

Tech Trades
- coming together but I have 2 people offering me Monarchy

[Ruff_Hi]

email from Dreylin ...

Ruff,

1) Maths - Monarchy in pencil.
2) GP: correct on all counts and I think it will be worthwhile to
re-visit once you get to GP#2.
3) Agree to continue talking about land, and will certainly contact
you if I'm eyeing up any potentially contentious areas.

I'm not sure yet that I don't hate to be in my place, but I agree that
the way the map is chunked up makes it possible to claim and defend
areas.

In our chat this morning, you mentioned something about an e-mail
asking me to pass on a message to athlete; I don't seem to have any
other messages from you in my inbox (and I have checked my bin just in
case). You didn't send it to mh instead? I assume you're looking to
feel him out about the 5-way proposal?

Dreylin II

And yes - I did mean mh. There are too many names going on here ... the civ4 leader name, the players internet handle and now people's real names are getting involved with emails flying around. People should just have 1 name and stick to it!

[Ruff_Hi]

another email ...

Hey Ruff,

I'll send out a feeler to athlete and see what he says, though you
shouldn't be too far off finding him yourself by now.

BTW: I notice you've leapt 10posts ahead of me in the last couple of
days; I suspect you're just spamming your own thread just to up the
post count! Stop it! 8-)

Dreylin II.

and my reply

Oh - its a post count race too. I post the emails I get, the turns I play and some ramblings about the game and stuff. I haven't managed a THIS MAP STINKS post yet.

Ruff

PS: that is another post for me!

[Ruff_Hi]

FF: Barracks in 2
LQ: Horse Pasture (1)
Tech: Writing in 2

Workers
- Horse Pasture (1)
- mines at LQ next

Scouts
- Looking for Athlete
- Trying to get un-stuck from the bottle neck and then make its way NE to locate sooooo's cities.

Tech Trades
- coming together but I have 2 people offering me Monarchy

Other
- Dreylin founds Judaism

[Ruff_Hi]

FF: Barracks in 1, a bit of MM to grow in 2
LQ: Horse Pasture done, grows to size 3, happy cap is 4
Tech: Writing - done.

Workers
- Horse Pasture - done, 1 worker moves to grassland hill forest to chop for LQs granary
- other worker will probably move to cottage one of the floodplains

Scouts
- Athlete found!!
- Trying to get un-stuck from the bottle neck and then make its way NE to locate sooooo's cities.

Tech Trades
- sooooo and I have agreed to a Maths - Alphabet trade (due in about 13 turns)

[Ruff_Hi]

Sooooo said Alphabet is due on T54 which will line up nicely with Maths.

Looks like Maths is a 13 or 14 turn tech. This should line up quite nicely.

ruff

Met Athlete ... sort of used the info that he would be willing to trade Monarchy in the game thread ...

Athlete,

Greetings. One of my scouts just met your injured (but glowing blue) warrior near Dreylin's Banana Lake. As you might have seen, I am trying to organize a large tech trade but not many people are interested. Guess I will have to go it alone.

To that end, I am currently researching mathematics (about 12 or 13 turns) and would be interested in trading it to you. I think I saw that you would be interested in trading Monarchy (265). I could throw in a cheap tech (fishing, hunting, other) to balance out the beakers. Would you be interested in a trade of this nature?

Regards,

Ruff

And if Athlete can come through with the Monarchy trade, I will need to get a bunch of religious techs before I can actually accept it ...

Dreylin,

Regarding techs. I have a proposal to make you. Would you be interested in the following:

I trade you Maths (221)
You trade me Meditation (70), Priesthood (52) and Monotheism (105) [total of 227]

I am currently researching maths and should be done in about 12 to 13 turns.

Ruff

[Ruff_Hi]

I said in one of my emails that I haven't noticed anything re the map to gripe about. And Dreylin mentioned a pre-calendar happy resource - I said I didn't have one - he told me to look harder!

Well, FF border's popped to reveal my pre-calendar happy resource. The only problem, it is behind the lake ... the non galley lake. The lake that I cannot cross in a boat (excluding fishing boats).



I pulled out my high powered glasses to peer into the fog and concluded that I think those tiles behind the gold are all peaks. So, there is no way to get to that area from the North either.



So ... A goodie hut that will take a massive border pop or a very late game paratrooper to pop (what a waste of a unit - bet I get a map!) and a gold resource. I bet Sullla didn't test the navigation of that lake and he expected me to sail over and settle on the grass plains. Hmm - two cities, just to connect a gold resource ... gees - a pretty big investment (if it was possible!).