[SPOILERS] Ceiliazul and Timski go To War: Brennus of Spain

[Ceiliazul]

I owe you a turn report, but basically nothing happened. Commodore finished his 2nd wrr, and will likely feel tempted to attack my warrior. Let's hope Comm's eternal optimism hands me a promotion! I did double check, Commodore does NOT have a 'rax.

Demo updates and such will be included in the next turn report. With any luck we'll get visibility on GE's capital too! (GE graphs due ~t29)

I subscribe to "the first casualty of war is the plan", and plan accordingly

In summary, before playing anything: Love the early Flood Plains road. Not as simple as an earlier Cow, but certainly adds options.

Exactly. Earlier rice OR earlier cow (by farming rice 2-1-1, cow worker can leave early) or maybe something else.

Scout first gave me a headache last time I checked - or maybe I just couldn't bring myself to work an unimproved flood plains tile instead of a plain-river-Copper Mine - I forget!

I haven't played it out, that was an away-from-game brainstorm... I'm imagining something like this:

T25 Scout (0+1)
T26 Axe (0+6)
T27 Axe (6+6)
T28 Scout (1+6)
T29 Scout (7+6) overflow 3h into granary

I think the Silver is a "Red Herring" until absolutely needed, because it takes so many turns to get it connected.

I see your point, it's a total of 8wt to connect the silver. I'll try some sims in the near future with the silver in mind... but you're probably right about our Capital being low pop for a while. At least that worker can pre-cottage a riverside tile instead of moving wastefully, or something.

Keep the ideas coming!

You bet!

[timski]

The only way Commodore could risk attacking with both Warriors is if they have a third part-built (or dry-whipped - are they in Slavery?) - Commodore optimism should have limits that exclude chancing their only city for a "cheap" Warrior kill. The odds on 1 vs 1 are strongly in our favour. Gut feeling is that Commodore's second Warrior is merely pre-empting their Settler. If you stay in the middle, one Warrior couldn't cover everything at once.

Earlier rice OR earlier cow (by farming rice 2-1-1, cow worker can leave early) or maybe something else.

Good point. The Cow Pasture is primarily limited by border expansion, while the Rice Farm is not. Ironically, the Rice Farm only started as a filler move while waiting for the second ring to expand. It was only subsequently that I realised how useful an early 4-food tile is to balancing whips and growth. There may be a compromise move, involving both Workers on the Rice for one turn, then one Worker moving to the Cow. That will almost entirely depend on what tiles Duck Hunt needs to work at the time to balance growth/whips. The Cow is clearly worth Pasturing the moment the borders expand, if that is possible to do without compromising Duck Hunt short-term.

I'll try and work through some of these ideas later...

Added, on Scout:

Your 1T Scout -> 2T Axe -> 2T Scout -> Granary is a better opener, because it gets the Scout out sooner and gives us a choice of metal unit. No change in total hammers though, so the Granary is still due on T32, with no way to bridge that gap.

Added, in Worker Rice/Cow split:

The first Axe is whipped on T34. This is critical because T34 is the turn at which the Rice either completes, or we split the Workers. And the Worker split wins! We only need 7 food total to grow back to size 2: First turn on the Flood Plains Cottage, second on the (slightly delayed) Rice Farm. This gets the Cow Pasture started on T35, the first possible turn. So far, so much better. Only potential issue is that the new Axe isn't able to cover the Pasture Worker immediately - that Worker is especially exposed. Perhaps we should plan to have Warriors home by this stage?

Added:

Still work in progress, but the Silver arguments may be moot, because I think we can spare Worker #4. Also trying to get an extra metal unit (5 Axes total) out before the Libraries go in, without delaying the overall pace...

[timski]

Work in progress, but take a look, because there's clear room for improvement. This adds in your earlier Scout and Rice/Cow split, gets an extra metal unit out (5 Axes, instead of 3 Axe and a Spear) without delaying the Libraries, gets the Silver connected earlier, and frees 1 slack Worker sooner, rather than 2 later, creating more land improvement options. I can't yet get the Axe/Library gambit in Duck Hunt to work quite as smoothly as the "February 17th" plan, but this may still be a better plan overall. Certainly food for thought. Capital's builds are unchanged.

Possible Revised Duck Hunt Management:

This gets an extra metal unit produced, but the Axe/Library gambit isn't as neat. It assumes the revised Worker Micro underneath.

Opening Duck Hunt tiles and builds:

T25 - Build Scout. Flood Plains.
T26 - Switch to Axe. Copper.
T28 - Switch to Scout.
T30 - Scout completes. Build Granary. 2 chops into Granary.
T32 - Granary completes. Switch to Axe. Flood Plains Cottage.
T34 - Size 2. Whip Axe. Flood Plains Cottage.
T35 - Axe #1 completes. Build Axe. Rice.
T36 - Size 2. Flood Plains Cottage and Rice.
T37 - Cow and Rice.
T38 - Size 3. Rice, Flood Plains Cottage and Cow.
T39 - Axe #2 completes. Build Axe.
T40 - Size 4. Whip Axe. Chop starts. Rice, Flood Plains Cottage and Cow.
T41 - Axe #3 completes. Size 4. Build Axe. Rice, 2 Flood Plains Cottages and Cow.
T42 - Whip Axe (29/23 queued). Build Library. Chop into Library. Rice, Cow and Copper.
T43 - 2-pop whip Library (62/60). Rice and Cow.

Then, at T44 we grow to size 3 and complete the queued Axe #4. But I don't seem to be able get Duck Hunt up to size 4 by T45, which makes the following Settler #4 a little slower than ideal, even with a chop. I don't seem to be able to find a tile combination that gives (I think) just 1 more food, while losing no more than 2 hammers: The "obvious" solution is to farm the northern Flood Plains...

The best recovery I can see so far is to start Settler #4 for 1 turn, capturing the Axe overflow, then put 1 turn into an Archer or Axe while growing to 4, then back to the Settler. A chop comes into the Settler at some point. The 17th February Axe/Library gambit was neater, because it got the population back up to 4, before commencing Settler #4, both speed the Settler and allowing Duck Hunt to go straight into Worker #6 afterwards. Perhaps I'm overlooking the benefit of an extra metal unit?

Added; One option I was kicking around was to 2-pop whip the axe on T40, having worked fewer hammers the turn before so that it can still be whipped then. Another was to delay Duck Hunt's Library by one turn, just to get the food/hammer balance right. (The Worker micro can handle chopping 1 turn later - just put a turn into the road 1E of Duck Hunt on the way to the chop, rather than 2 turns after.) 1 turn delay on the Library is trivial if it means we can re-grow to size 4 smoothly before starting Settler #4. Plus it takes the pressure off tech research, giving us an extra turn to tech Writing if needed.

Revised Duck Hunt Worker Micro:

Worker #3 is unchanged until T40, after which they have a lot of options, none of which are especially urgent.
Worker #4 Mines and roads the capital's Silver, and is not used at Duck Hunt.

On this basis, the Silver is Mined T41. It can be worked for 1 turn instead of plain hill mine, and still allows the Settler to be 2-pop whipped the following turn. Unsure how that impacts beyond - 2 hammers may or may not be critical somewhere. That one turn of Silver leaves the sim only 10 Beakers short of the required Writing tech.

Turn details are for Workers #1 and #2. Worth checking these moves again for turn numbers:

T25 - #1 completes road 1N of Duck Hunt. #2 Mines Copper.
T26 - #1 moves to the Copper and Mines. Copper online.
T27 - #1 moves onto forest 1NE of Duck Hunt. #2 moves onto the forest 1S.
T28 - #1 and #2 chop.
T31 - #1 and #2 move to Flood Plains 1N of Duck Hunt and Cottage.
T33 - #1 and #2 move to the Rice and Farm.
T34 - #2 moves 2SE towards Cow. #1 continues farming.
T35 - #2 Pastures Cow ESE of Duck Hunt.
T36 - #1 moves 1NE and roads 1 turn.
T37 - #1 moves 1E and Cottages Flood Plain 2N of Duck Hunt.
T38 - #2 moves 1N and Cottages 1SE of Duck Hunt for 1 turn.
T39 - #2 moves NNE onto forest ENE of Duck Hunt.
T40 - #2 chops forest ENE of Duck Hunt.
T41 - #1 moves 1W and completes the road NNW of Duck Hunt.
T42 - #1 moves 3SE, onto the hill ESE of Duck Hunt.
T43 - #1 roads hill ESE of Duck Hunt. #2 moves 1SW and roads 1E of Duck Hunt.

Thus Contra's roads are completed just in time for the Settler to move into place, without sending Worker #4 out. Thereafter one Worker needs to chop Settler #4. Both Workers will need to start on roads related to B2, although exactly how depends on when Settler #4 is finished, so I've left that open for now.

[Ceiliazul]

I can't wait to try it!

I totally hope we get to use all these plans... but I'm sure you realize that Commodore or GE could throw a wrench in it at any time. We're pretty light on defense for an AW game, naturally.

I like the compact instruction style, makes things much easier to follow.

How about some city names? Sine you're used to d2, perhaps "Double Dragon"?

If we name cities after games, worker/army names are easy to come by: Workers could be heroes, army could be bad guys? With Google on our side, I'm sure we could come up with enough!

Cities:
Mario Bros
Duck Hunt
Contra
Double Dragon
Excite Bike
Marble Madness
Legend of Zelda
Bases Loaded
Punch Out!

[timski]

I totally hope we get to use all these plans... but I'm sure you realize that Commodore or GE could throw a wrench in it at any time.

The detailed planning has become a rather obsessive challenge of late, to constantly improve with each iteration: Both for this game, and my own skill. It's been great to have someone to bounce ideas around with. But I don't expect to be able to follow any of this for long. Just as the Stonehenge plan has evolved in response to our neighbours (in)actions. At best we can use fragments of the plan, as and when we can. At worst we (I) at least now understand the limitations of the map, what may or may not be possible.

Strategically, the critical period for us is between now and turn 35, when we have minimal build (whip) flexibility and essentially no army. If we reach 35 unhindered, we should have the 'Henge, both Granaries, and enough military to not get casually blocked. From there can easily react to circumstances, even if we'd rather focus on our economy.

Names sound good. Only caveat is that Marble Madness should have no Marble. Double Dragon no doubling of the same resource, Duck Hunt no (Duck) pond, and so on. A little opponent psychology thing .

[timski]

Revised Duck Hunt city micro below. Library (and hence Writing research) one turn later, but Duck Hunt is much more efficient, and much more powerful subsequently. Up to turn 35 as my previous micro:

T25 - Build Scout. Flood Plains.
T26 - Switch to Axe. Copper.
T28 - Switch to Scout.
T30 - Scout completes. Build Granary. 2 chops into Granary.
T32 - Granary completes. Switch to Axe. Flood Plains Cottage.
T34 - Size 2. Whip Axe. Flood Plains Cottage.
T35 - Axe #1 completes. Build Axe. Rice.

Then:

T36 - Size 2. Rice, FP Cottage.
T37 - Cow, FP Cottage.
T38 - Size 3. Whip Axe #2. Cow, FP Cottage.
T39 - Axe #2 completes. Build Axe. Cow, FP Cottage.
T40 - Size 3. Axe #3 completes. Build Axe. Rice, Cow, FP Cottage.
T41 - Rice, Cow, FP Cottage.
T42 - Size 4. Rice, Cow, 2x FP Cottage.
T43 - Size 5. Whip Axe, queued (33/23). Build Library. Chop into Library. Rice, Cow, Copper, FP Cottage.
T44 - 2-pop whip Library (62/60). Rice, Cow.
T45 - Size 3. Library complete. Un-queued Axe builds. Rice, 2x FP Cottage. (Contra founds this turn, taking the Cow.)
T46 - Size 4. Axe #4 complete. Build Settler. Rice, Copper, 2x FP Cottage. (Settler completes T50 assuming no further whipping, founds "B2" T51.)

Assumes the revised Duck City Worker micro previously posted, with one change to the Worker micro for Worker #2: On T39 they put 1 turn into a road 1E of Duck Hunt, before moving to the chop. Then after the chop, they complete the road in 1 turn.

There is a variant that leaves Duck City at size 5, but creates extra problems, even with the Silver - unhealthiness (pending more resource connections) and the inability of Contra to work the Cow immediately. The size 5 detail got lost to a "busy server"... I might try and work that option through again later.

Added: The size 5 variant simply forgets the whip Axe #4, and queues up the Library on T43. Other moves are the same, except now Duck Hunt is 1 population larger. It can build the axe to completion after the Library, but *only* if the Cow is still available on T45 (which means Contra is delayed working it for one turn). Worker #3 also needs to connect a Rice (probably Duck Hunt's) for health, and complete the Cottage 1SE of Duck Hunt (so that Contra and size 5 Duck Hunt have something to work).

[Ceiliazul]

Commodore Beats the Choke

Ogg isn't dead yet, but Commodore has made a good play: with 2 worker roading and covered, there won't be an vulnerability for the warrior to exploit. He even left his capital empty to taunt me! (Actually not taunting, he needs both warriors to cover or I'd *happily* take the 50% shot at killing 2 workers.) Timski is right, my warrior may not kill anything but he can still slow chopping activities.



Ginger Eagle looks solid, but with only a single warrior in sight I might have some options. It looks like he's roading away from me, which is great news.



Demos for t23 are below. Still no one with a 2nd city, and we have a settler (whipped for overflow) and walking next turn!

I'm getting known-tech bonus for AH and pottery this turn, a change from last turn. I'm assigned them to Comm and GE respectively due to the time between techs and the super high GNP (28) we've seen recently. Still, I checked BOTH rivals land for an extra hammer from horse... nothing sighted.

The super high gnp is still Ginger Eagle, I'm guessing he's learning Animal Husbandry himself. Commodore has no tech selected, or he's learning Mysticism... which wouldn't break my heart.

[timski]

The size 5 Duck Hunt version may be better. As my previous post until T43, then:

T43 - Size 5. Queue Axe (no whip). Build Library. Chop into Library. Rice, Cow, Copper, 2x FP Cottage.
T44 - 2-pop whip Library. Rice, Cow, FP Cottage.
T45 - Size 4. Library completes. Finish Axe. Rice, Cow, 2x FP Cottage.
T46 - Size 5. Axe completes. Build Settler. Rice, Copper, 2x FP Cottage, Grass Cottage.

Chop comes into Settler on T48, allowing it to be single-whipped on T49 into a 3 turn Worker. B2 founded turn 51.

Worker #3 can be managed to road Duck Hunt's Rice after farming the Capital's Rice, then complete the Cottage 1SE of Duck Hunt in time for Contra to be able to work at least a Cottage for 1 turn prior to taking the Cows on T46, and returning the third Cottage to Duck Hunt.

(Turn feedback shortly...)

[timski]

Revealing that we're going to get our Settler out faster than Commodore, in spite of half-building the 'Henge. I assume Commodore's happy little stack will move onto the Copper next turn though. Road T23, Mine T25, Settler presumably out by then too. If our Warrior is still causing a headache by turn 25, I can see an Axe shortly after. That might not be good goad, because Commodre could get an Axe up to Duck Hunt before we can readily get one there to meet it, unless we fully build the first Axe before the Granary (just about possible, but will probably lose 1 hammer on the Scout in the process - I forget how fast hammers decay).

GingerEagle has more forests than we stated with - 5 in the fat cross, at least. That's both a blessing for production, and a curse with our Warrior nearby. I'll let you judge the moves... But we need something coming home fairly soon, since we'll pay a high price if our Workers get blocked.

Only 2 (er, 3) reasons for GingerEagle to road the Deer: They plan to grow the capital to 5 soon, they plan to Settle towards Dazed, their Copper is that way, or all of the above. GingerEagle is working the inland water. Plus Deer, Fish and capital is 13 food, so they either have a 5-food improved tile in the fog (ENE of Crystal Palace) or a pair of Fish. Assuming wet Rice, their Worker has done 5 turns on Farm, 4 on Camp, 2 on Road - 11 turns of activity by 23, assuming optimal moves. That fits with a Worker after Work Boat, Worker out on turn 11. At best there's one turn of pre-chop, and I doubt even that.

Pottery would fit GingerEagle and Animal Husbandry Commodore. Will check that through in a moment. But critically, that's another period with no Mysticism from GingerEagle. Combined with the lack of chops, it's going to be hard for anyone else to land Stonehenge before us.

[Ceiliazul]

Revealing that we're going to get our Settler out faster than Commodore, in spite of half-building the 'Henge.

Yes, that's a good thing, and I agree about the dangers of an early axe.

I agree about GE's non-myst tech. Dazed is the only competition for Henge now.

Only 2 reasons for GingerEagle to road the Deer: They plan to grow the capital to 5 soon, or they plan to Settle towards Dazed, or both. GingerEagle is working the inland water. Plus Deer, Fish and capital is 13 food, so they either have a 5-food improved tile in the fog (ENE of Crystal Palace) or a pair of Fish. Assuming wet Rice, their Worker has done 5 turns on Farm, 4 on Camp, 2 on Road - 11 turns of activity by 23, assuming optimal moves. That fits with a Worker after Work Boat, Worker out on turn 11. At best there's one turn of pre-chop, and I doubt even that.

That's some good analysis! A big incentive for GE to expand away from me is Copper. It has to be to his West. If he fails to quickly fill the choke, that might create opportunities for us.

As I look at his land and the juicy choke hill he has, I wonder about moving DblDragon 2w to the flat grass tile. You've planned for Yellow, what if we move to green?



Benefits:

• bring fur and rice in range (we're unlikely to hold fur on the Comm side)
  
• BLOCK GE from the red circle
  
• Better culture coverage of the choke
  

Drawbacks:

• give up the hill defense
  
• more road micro
  
• cow out of first ring
  

Is it possible?

I'd like to move Pog along the treeline and then looping back toward the coast. With luck, I'll meet the next opponent over while I'm at it, and get a FULL picture of GE's land. If he does have a settler on the way, it might slow down his next settlement as well.