[PB66 Spoilers] Miguelito and Ginger split the bill

[Miguelito]

now this is pretty for once (also a function of by now 5 people having whipped 2 pop each, but still lovely)

[Ginger()]

Yes, capital granary for settler whips makes sense. with so much food shared we can fine tune growth really well. Should Thomas have a granary when it starts on the pyramids? That way it can grow back to 3 quickly after a 2pop whip, although it still misses out on 10 turns of working a mine, so comes out with less hammers into the wonder. Whipping the granary with OF the turn before the stone comes online might be a good move?

When, where and how would you build the Oracle? I give you that none of the picks screas for it, so it might not come super early (although eg superdeath might just because). With super early caste you can do crazy stuff like getting a merchant in the 70s , and I also accept that since we really want all of Calendar, CoL, Construction and Currency, CoL might come a bit late if researched naturally. With a missionary Confu is a good religion if it comes that early. Do we drop mids if we go for it?

I am still in the camp of focusing on mids. I really like early OR, Judaism also gets a missionary, and it also feels a little lame to just replay the ongoing game of one of our competitors, and moreover land it at a much later date (my suggestion is pretty much a replay of our own PB54, but we could divert from that later - eg pushing CS as you suggested).

It appears sensible to me to go Poly first if Hindu isn't taken after we've finished BW. In that case we can decide pretty late on which wonder to focus.

Thanks for correcting the tile in Thomas. I was too lazy to count yields and just went for max hammers, but if the worker isn't delayed this is better. After Margeret grows I think we can work pigs and FP, and the new cottage will also come in - just need to make sure that Marge has the settler on 40/100 when the whip becomes available.
I think we do need the 2h overflow. Turn 41/42 we will get 11hpt into the worker, and only after the cap has grown on t43 we can take the FP for 12hpt. Am I mistaken? If yes correct me, but I think with 2h OF we finish the worker 60/60 on t45.

Nah if we're building a long, expensive wonder like pyramids at happy cap, then Thomas doesn't seem to need a granary in my mind. If you 2-pop whip at happy cap and immediately grow back, assuming grassland not plains mines, you lose 33 hammers from the mines being unable to being unworked. Whip overflow is useful when you have a higher happy ceiling or you're trying to frontload production (cheap wonder like Oracle or Colossus). If Pyramids, just sit Thomas's population on the mines is my vote and skip the granary. 

I don't think the super early merchant is worth it unless you are on a map with a lot of tech gating, like... say a happy-capped ocean map with limited expansion prospects, foreign ICTR and jungle where you need Currency, Metal Casting, Monarchy, and Iron Working in rapid succession  

As for replaying a game of a competitor, meh, there's nothing new under the sun. And this isn't an original idea. Asoka screams CoL Oracle, and I've done it nearly every singleplayer game I've played him. Hey Vanrober just did it in his last game PB61 (I guess PB62 counts as a game... but ehh). We could theoretically do both. Make a delayed attempt at pyramids after the fact? Though I've recently been burned by getting cocky and under-committing so I'd acquiesce if you think we should chase one rabbt.

I would argue that Oracling CoL is a better short-term boost. We pick up an important tech, speed ourselves on our way to our major setpiece goals, with a wonder that costs less than half as much as stone-boosted Pyramids, but Pyramids will win out in the long game, especially after Guilds/Banking where we whip Knights with PS and run Merc/Rep. It's a really tough decision imo, I think Oracle is slightly less likely to lose to other players (if we gogogo for it), and our leader does need an early hammer/beaker injection more than he needs a long-game economic engine in Representation. But we picked this combo because of the late game lols and I do love a good double-down on passively buildering above the competition. Also, Oracle gives no bonus to being captured, but if we're in that position, the game is already on shaky ground. 
I could really flip a coin, I'm imperceptibly leaning towards Oracle, but I would not be in anyway miffed or disappointed with a decision to go Pyramids. Lately I've been questioning my strategic sense, so I'll rest my case for your consideration and let you decide.  

I agree with Poly after BW if nobody's snatched it yet.  

Does Judaism get a free missionary? I thought Mono it counted as ancient era and didn't get it. If it did get a free missionary, that does change things in my mind.

[Ginger()]

Thanks for correcting the tile in Thomas. I was too lazy to count yields and just went for max hammers, but if the worker isn't delayed this is better. After Margeret grows I think we can work pigs and FP, and the new cottage will also come in - just need to make sure that Marge has the settler on 40/100 when the whip becomes available.
I think we do need the 2h overflow. Turn 41/42 we will get 11hpt into the worker, and only after the cap has grown on t43 we can take the FP for 12hpt. Am I mistaken? If yes correct me, but I think with 2h OF we finish the worker 60/60 on t45.

Oops, sorry

Does it still work out? I didn't take into account that we'd move up to 12hpt in 2 turns

[Miguelito]

Quick report:
- Amica settled their third city,  and it's again not towards us. That's good,  although I'm a bit jealous that apparently they had at least two spots that were better than a pig. They're also still spending all of their EP on is,  suggesting no other contacts. If they're bottled in and we are the only neighbour it's a bit of a major problem (and your pink dot might become justifiable)
- south by the forest incense it's a dead end, no lux, no food (seafood might appear yet). Flipside is no threat from that direction


I'll come back to the strategy discussion with more time later. But I could change the worker back to the hill in time,  so we're on track

[Ginger()]

Yeah finding more about Amica is why I wanted to scout westward (through that probable gap in the mountains to the northwest of our capital) rather than south… but oh well

I think the north with Vanrober is flat land (not particularly defensible against mounted) and very poor land initially. Yes the river is fabulous and green and there’s forests and possibly a fur for us, but the southeast seems richer IMO, so we should settle that direction and to wall Amica off.

I think that would be major mapmaker oversight if Amica had only one expansion route through another player (wtf the point of toroid then?)
I think that pink dot is credible but needs more planning and sims
I think we should keep a flexible plan until we see copper
I think that we should decide between Oracle for early snowball (one bonus is that we can make a temple then priest to get 5GPP for an early-ish shrine, also it’s way cheaper than mids) or Pyramids for the economic chokehold on the long game
I think that we definitely need a religion without lux and Mono is the priority target if not Confu
I think that you should do the sims for the workers while I uselessly kibitz about wonders (My vote is cottaging, I like cottaging)
And finally, I think that I’m a little drunk and should go to sleep and not touch the Civ until the morning lest we end up troubling Ramk
Cheers :D

[Miguelito]

I don't think the super early merchant is worth it unless you are on a map with a lot of tech gating, like... say a happy-capped ocean map with limited expansion prospects, foreign ICTR and jungle where you need Currency, Metal Casting, Monarchy, and Iron Working in rapid succession  

Oh yeah that sounds like a crazy setup. You could only hope for one of the Ind guys to build it faster than Asoka could with Writing researched . I mean, assuming it is a big game, like 18 players or so, surely one of multiple Ind leaders would?

Does Judaism get a free missionary? I thought Mono it counted as ancient era and didn't get it. If it did get a free missionary, that does change things in my mind.

I was pretty sure it does, but I just testedit in SP and no, no missionary.

Nah if we're building a long, expensive wonder like pyramids at happy cap, then Thomas doesn't seem to need a granary in my mind. If you 2-pop whip at happy cap and immediately grow back, assuming grassland not plains mines, you lose 33 hammers from the mines being unable to being unworked. Whip overflow is useful when you have a higher happy ceiling or you're trying to frontload production (cheap wonder like Oracle or Colossus). If Pyramids, just sit Thomas's population on the mines is my vote and skip the granary. 

Yes, whipping off mines doesn't help the wonder. You shouldn't really lose 33 hammers though - you can get close to 30 back through OF, and can also whip 5->3 so you only lose out on working the one mine blocked by HC. But you also may have to prebuild whatever you want to whip, and you have to work food over mines in order to grow (mitigated if we have the granary). So a whip cycle may cost like 10 hammers into the wonder. But then the product of the whip is not useless either. The main argument against a mids run is that it takes up all the productivity of one of the best cities over a long time, at a time when you don't have many cities and are probably competing in settling races. So my argument is that whip cycles for bronze units could help the empire atlarge without sacrificing too much on the wonder.

I would argue that Oracling CoL is a better short-term boost. We pick up an important tech, speed ourselves on our way to our major setpiece goals, with a wonder that costs less than half as much as stone-boosted Pyramids, but Pyramids will win out in the long game, especially after Guilds/Banking where we whip Knights with PS and run Merc/Rep. It's a really tough decision imo, I think Oracle is slightly less likely to lose to other players (if we gogogo for it), and our leader does need an early hammer/beaker injection more than he needs a long-game economic engine in Representation.

And here is where I don't follow you. On the one hand, I don't think having CoL early (like t60?) boosts us all that much. Sure it gives us a happy face in 2 cities (as opposed to Hindu/Judaism with just one), but beyond that? Caste does not seem super useful - the map is not as suitable for an early merchant, and we don't want an early GA I think? Which leaves an artist if we want to push out against someone, but I don't think we do, and a scientist for the academy. The latter makes some sense but imo doesn't justify the wonder. Then there is the ability to whip Rathouses, but is this really relevant before t100 or so? Granted, by that time we surely will not have researched all of the 4 C's, but then it's more of a medium than short term advantage.

Meanwhile I see a lot of short term value in Rep's happiness bonus (plus the religious happy (+ culture!) spreading through OR). That will be super relevant immediately after building the wonder. Granted, that happens some 15-20 turns later.
So yes, I'm very firmly in camp mids still, and if you say you are torn between the too I would suggest we go that way, unless I have missed a really compelling reason why we'd benefit hugely from early CoL.


Totally agree that the dotmap can only be decided on when we see copper. But ideally we need a plan that very turn. We'll whip the settler, and would ideally send one or two workers on their way already.
Sorry about the scout, I think I left a message asking you in game, but then connected and played before you did. Hopefully once we feel more or less secure (ie copper connected) we can use the warrior watching Amica to defog in that direction.

[Miguelito]

post without pics is a sad post.

Every city is a holy city in the Wholly Holy Empire:



have some wikipedia snippets:

Margaret the Virgin

Margaret of Antioch is a patroness of pregnant women

Which is why I thought she would be a fitting name for the capital, what with all subsequent cities being born from there. Curious patronage considering her byname though.

...various miraculous incidents occurred. One of these involved being swallowed by Satan in the shape of a dragon, from which she escaped alive when the cross she carried irritated the dragon's innards. Eventually, she was decapitated.

Let's do without the beheading, but I like the story.

Thomas the Apostle


The German lists him as a patron of architects, and wewant to build something big here, so there's that. The picture of him laying the finger into the wound refers to the Incredulity ofThomas, which apparently has some theological relevance:

John 20:24–29 tells how doubting Thomas was skeptical at first when he heard that Jesus had risen from the dead and appeared to the other apostles, saying, "Except I shall see on his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe."[18] But when Jesus appeared later and invited Thomas to touch his wounds and behold him, Thomas showed his belief by saying, "My Lord and my God". Jesus then said, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed."

Commentators have noted that John avoids saying whether Thomas actually did "thrust" his hand in. Before the Protestant Reformation the usual belief, reflected in artistic depictions, was that he had done so, which most Catholic writers continued to believe, while Protestant writers often thought that he had not.

Regardless of the question of whether Thomas had felt as well as "seen" the physical evidence of the Resurrection of Jesus, the Catholic interpretation was that, although Jesus asserts the superiority of those who have faith without physical evidence, he was nonetheless willing to show Thomas his wound, and let him feel it. This was used by theologians as biblical encouragement for the use of physical experiences such as pilgrimages, veneration of relics and ritual in reinforcing Christian beliefs.

I find it fascinating how that science works.

Saint Nicholas


I don't know how widespread this is in other countries, but in Germany we have Nicholas stuffing children's boots with sweets on December6 as a premature Santa Claus (which apparently is a descending tradition through the Dutch Sinterklaas).

In England, the boy bishop was elected on 6 December, the feast of Saint Nicholas, the patron saint of children, and his authority lasted through Holy Innocents' day (28 December).[1] The adult Bishop, symbolically, steps down at the deposuit potentes de sede of the Magnificat ("he hath put down the mighty from their seat"), and the boy takes his seat at et exaltavit humiles ("and hath exalted the humble and meek").

After the election, the boy dressed in full bishop's robes with mitre and crozier, and, attended by other boys dressed as priests, made a circuit of the town blessing the people. Typically the boy Bishop and his minions took possession of the cathedral and performed all the ceremonies and offices, except Mass. This custom spread to many parishes.[1]

Notwithstanding the intervention of various Church authorities (see Feast of Fools), the popularity of the custom made it resilient. In England, it was abolished by Henry VIII in 1542, revived by Mary I in 1552, and, finally, abolished by Elizabeth I.

Demos on t43 looked even nicer than the turn before, although that may have been an erstwhile peak:

[Miguelito]

well, hello


If he's the neighbour - and I don't think a warrior would realistically have walked past someone already - I suppose we can't complain, if Pleccarome or superdeath are on the menu. You've played a game with him, so you will know better than me, but as far as I know he did put up a convincing defense in PB63, but is not really threatening. Is that about right? The combo also inspires little terror; did he pick Carthage for Numids or Cothons? If the latter, I don't think the map as we've known it is overly well suited. A number of cities are going to be inland, and he might actually have trouble finding enough islands even for domestic routes, moreso if he also doubles down and also builds GLH. Btw isn't that also a nice boost for Mercantilism (and by expansion pyramids )? He is up on us BW and Fishing, which together with the tech tells me that he had a more coastal start, at least.



Our neighbours don't know each other, so they can't send Declare War on the Holy People messages around just yet. Amica is still spending all their EP on us, but next turn we finally should have graphs, and then can divert at least some EP to our newfound neighbour.

[Ginger()]

Yeah I worried that SPI/ORG wouldn't be able to carry the hammer tax of Big Trongle, but demos look good. Turns out simming is the best trait. You have my blessing to exclusively prioritize Pyramids.

Yeah, Jack is a good guy with good builder's fundamentals but lack of a strategic focus, usually friendly—the antithesis of Superdeath. From what I can read of his reports, he suffers from emotional disengagement in the asynchronous pitboss format of gaming, probably because he plays fast, and 5min a day isn't a great way to maintain interest.

I imagine he picked Carthage for Cothons, which are actually quite good when paired with PRO in this version of CtH, as the additional 50% TR bonus brings them up to 100% bonus, giving 4C domestic ICTR. So building a cothon in a coastal city with 2 trade routes gives an additional 6 base commerce, or 7 if GLH adds a third TR. However that doesn't fix the problem that they're 100hammer buildings, so Mao is really the only feasible pick to exploit that. (though I suppose after forges and OR, 66 hammer Cothons are not a bad deal). All in all Lieu-Ye probably beats Mao because Org>Exp on Emperor.

I'm much more concerned about Amicalola and Vanrober. Amicalola's usual builder tendencies are at odds with Washington's very early power curve, but I imagine they at least want to get to Math and the Baray toy before kicking down someone's front door.

What's your read of Vanrober? He seems like a nice fellow with a strong grasp of the game, but I can't tell what his flavor/biases are. His pick is very solid and multi-pronged, says "I want to keep my options open" very loudly.

[Miguelito]

We've got Amica's graphs:








Doesn't look like a stellar start tbh. With their traits I expect them to overtake us during the next 50 turns, so it's good if we can feel somewhat ahead for the moment. Their power is so low that it almost warrants a chariot rush - my excuse is that the terrain is unsuitable and ansyways, we can't whip them and it's too late anyway.




Is this a telling name by Jack? In which case, *shrug* for the moment at least. If he wants to mislead us and has stone I just hope that he goes the evident route and builds GLH.


On vanrober, first we've played together and I really like him. Regarding the player, I think what most stands out to me is a tendency of (earnest) self-deprecation or doubt, which often has him holding back from a decisive move. You see this in his thread titles, where it was always about learning from his dedlurkers, or now proclaiming himself finally nongreen after I think 5 games? Winning PB61 deserves some respectand he was clearly and by far the best in that (sometimes whacky...) field, but his play was far from flawless. While hoping that arrogance doesn't cloud my judgement, I think he has a healthy dose of respect towards me after we forced concession on him in PB54 and I dedlurked him in 62 (probably you as well, if he's been lurking). Now that I think of it, with Mjmd at the helm we also conquered him in 56, although he put up a sturdy defense against GK of Praetorians. So I would not expect him to do something rash as long as we show that we're paying attention. It might be that he sees our pick and decides to attack with Keshiks, but we can defend against that I would hope. And anyways, the terrain between us should not make that too appetizing for him.
Long term he is a plausible target for expansion, although considering geography and experience Jack might be more appealing.
I agree that the pick is solid, although since Charriu removed the +100% on Imp I have not found myself wanting to build a stable (I know you have ).

I had not realized that Cothons cost more hammers, and that is considering that I picked Carthage in my first game here . Exp really seems warranted. Your comment regarding "this version of CtH" was in reference to the circumnav bonus I suppose? Is the availability still decided by water %, and what was the threshold again? Anyway, so far it does not look like the map where you want to beeline for caravels, or does it in your opinion?