PBEM #1 - Saladin [Spoilers]

[athlete4life10]

I've requested Nationalism and Printing Press from Soooo, so hopefully I'll have that when I load up next time and will start right on Replaceable parts. As well my GM from Economics will go to Aachen for a trade mission. I plan on adopting OR and Free Markets next turn.

On the diplomatic front I've exchanged some things with Dreylin possibly trying to get some war stuff from him but I decided against that. I currently have an NAP with him until T125. No auto renewal or cool down or anything like that.

I also sent Dreylin this e-mail to try and get him to use his spy points against me but to get something in return as well:

Hey Andy,

OK so I finally got some to look at this. Here's what I figure (Everything is rounded in your favour for the most part):

Spy's cost 26 Hammers each. For the purposes of this deal you will be allowed 4 attempts at stealing technology. Assume 1 fails and 3 are successful. You are down 26 Hammers with atleast 1 spy still available to use for what you want (on me or anybody else), you may have built more than 2 spies so lets assume you have built 3 to use for the 4 attempts with a loss of 1 spy. You've spent 78 Hammers and only have 52 left.

Guilds and Economics are roughly 2300 beakers and lets add a 3rd technology in there such as printing press or something so we'll add another 1500 beakers for 3800 beakers. Now I don't know what all the multipliers are for researching techs but you get discounts for pre-reqs and other races that know it etc...+ your own buildings and what not so lets cut that in half. So you're stealing 1900 beakers.

You're losing your ability to see my territory etc...however you're gaining tech so I balance the lost opportunity vs the gain as even.

I'm going to assume if you convert those hammers previously mentioned to beakers it would double. So you spent 78 hammers which could have been put into research so those count as 156 lets round down for simplicity sake to 150. However I'll add another 50 for the lost spy (opportunity cost) so 200. Now I'm not sure if my logic works here but if you had put that 200 into research you'd only be stealing 1700 (maybe it's the other way around you'd be stealing 2100 depending on what you research but lets credit it in your favour for now :-0).

So in order for you to be allowed to steal tech from me you must agree to the following:

Grant me one tech of your wish (which I do not have, obviously) with a base beaker value of no more than 1700 (I get bonus to my research as well). The tech to be granted is at the sole discretion of Dreylin, but I must be granted a tech. The time of the grant has to be made no later than immediately after successfully stealing the 2nd tech. If the 2nd tech was stolen on an attempt prior to the 4th Dreylin may still complete up to and including the 4th attempt. If any changes are to be made after the agreement is made regarding the tech to be granted to me, the changes must be in my favour. This is all to be completed no later than T120 and even if 4 attempts were not made no further attempts will be allowed under NAP current or forthcoming.

This is a rough outline/guesstimate of what I think is fair. It's open for discussion and modifications at this point if you want to negotiate anything or come to more exact figures. I tried to make it as clear as possible as to what I might expect from you and vice versa so if you want to agree immediately you can. However if there's something glaringly wrong in that you know something I don't (due to superior knowledge/understanding of civ) I would expect you to not take advantage of me, for instance no tech of beaker value of 1700 or less would be available to me by the time you completed the 2nd steal. I don't think that would happen but just in case :-).

Those were my thoughts on it if you were to steal guilds/economics +1. I'm not saying you have to steal those but that's how I (roughly) calculated the figures. Beaker values I just got from loading the save, hitting F6 and scrolling over the techs in question.

Let me know what you think,

Taylor

MH and Soooo and I are still tight and I haven't talked to Ruff in ages but Dreylin probably lets him know about our conversations. If not then Ruff and I are just "cautious" with each other

[athlete4life10]

Here we go again (finally). So I received Nationalism and Printing Press from Soooo, passed economics onto both MH and Soooo, adopted Free Market and OR (switching back from pacifism). My GS that was birthed in Medina built an academy there helping it overtake my capital for the best research city of my empire (my first academy should have went here, oh well). I'm now researching Replaceable Parts which is due in 4 but will have to pause for 2 turns of gold funding. My GM from Economics is on it's way to Aaechen(?) for a trade mission which should allow for research to go straight into rifling from there.

My immediate plan is to finish settling atleast 2 more cities and get a couple more workers, spread buddhism everywhere and build more units. I'm contemplating building Maoi Statues in Damascus my HE city (7 coastal tiles). Anybody have any thoughts on that? I can produce it in 4 turns with the stolen stone from Dreylin. Oh and Zapotec 2pop whipped it's lighthouse and will go on to a madrassa next turn.

[Cyneheard]

Re: Maoi Statues:
Maoi is 168 hammers, actual. You have +150% for building it. This means it costs 68 base hammers. Maoi would have to be active for 10 turns to pay off, assuming that you're working all 7 tiles.

Since it's your HE city, you'll at a minimum be working your Rice and 5 Hills, except maybe during a GA. So 13 pop to work all 7 lake tiles. Right now, I assume you have 11 based off your T104 map and assuming no whipping since. That leaves exactly 0 surplus food from those 6 pop, and as of your turn 104 map, you're at your health limit, so the 5 2/1/2 tiles won't pay for themselves foodwise, unless you've got 11 health total (+2 surplus from the inland lake tiles).

So, you'll probably be working 5-6 ocean tiles, paying off in 17-18 turns total. This ignores the bonus value of "units built now, not 20 turns from now". If you're not planning on war in the next 10-15 turns, I'd say go for it. Especially if you've got a GA planned. But Maoi has an immediate cost of 68*225% = 153 hammers of units. The culture might help a little, but you seem to be winning that war well enough already .

[athlete4life10]

Well sorry for the hold up everybody! but not a lot I could do about it.
I figured while I had the chance I'd update atleast some of my diplomatic thoughts on the game. I hope and pray (and feel fairly certain) Dreylin's updating his thread with the e-mails we've had back and forth cause I don't want to but if he hasn't then I shall post them at a lurkers request. There's probably some pretty interesting reading in them.

That being said the jist of it is I've been in discussion with Dreylin about possibly switching sides. I've been contemplating the possibility ever since I became involved in the 3some but really only given it serious thought lately. If it's going to be done, now's the time. That being said there are so many factors that weigh into this it seems to me I can't make a decision which will be a doom for me so I've decided if I can't come to a clear decision by the time I play my turn I'll stay with the 3some.

Thinking it over it would appear to me for the long term betterment of my civ I should switch. I would have a smaller border to defend with my HE on 1 of my 2 fronts. I would gain the holy city (I don't believe the'res a shrine yet though) and while it's not exactly great land up north, land is land.

That being said, I am completely LOATHE to switch. It just doesn't feel right hanging MH out to dry and by association Soooo (though I suppose I could still work with Soooo if he would have me, interesting theory but probably not viable). Right about now I'm wishing I had just rushed MH with a few chariots and been done with it, but alas hindsight is 20/20. Certainly Dreylin's land is more appealing, and there's more of it but still siding with MH it would most likely be a defensive war, atleast to start. I'm pretty scarce on military as I've been trying to catch up on infrastructure but it's only hindered me for the current situation. The effects of a poor early game lasts through the ages .

Well right now it appears that MH and I are underdogs, the ones fighting the uphill battle. That's what RB is about right? Facing a challenge head-on and overcoming that challenge? Nothign is impossible as we saw in the apolyton demo-game, yet I have no illusions as to my skill compared to the other players in this game. Still it could be quite fun either upsetting or atleast going out with a bang (of sorts ). But the allure of the siren song is still ever so sweet. What am I to do???

[Mortius]

Do you have a NAP with MH or Dreylin?

[MWIN]

If you are going to go out, you should honor your NAP. At least, you keep your word and it will not affect other games (if you plan on staying in MP world).

Well sorry for the hold up everybody! but not a lot I could do about it.
I figured while I had the chance I'd update atleast some of my diplomatic thoughts on the game. I hope and pray (and feel fairly certain) Dreylin's updating his thread with the e-mails we've had back and forth cause I don't want to but if he hasn't then I shall post them at a lurkers request. There's probably some pretty interesting reading in them.

That being said the jist of it is I've been in discussion with Dreylin about possibly switching sides. I've been contemplating the possibility ever since I became involved in the 3some but really only given it serious thought lately. If it's going to be done, now's the time. That being said there are so many factors that weigh into this it seems to me I can't make a decision which will be a doom for me so I've decided if I can't come to a clear decision by the time I play my turn I'll stay with the 3some.

Thinking it over it would appear to me for the long term betterment of my civ I should switch. I would have a smaller border to defend with my HE on 1 of my 2 fronts. I would gain the holy city (I don't believe the'res a shrine yet though) and while it's not exactly great land up north, land is land.

That being said, I am completely LOATHE to switch. It just doesn't feel right hanging MH out to dry and by association Soooo (though I suppose I could still work with Soooo if he would have me, interesting theory but probably not viable). Right about now I'm wishing I had just rushed MH with a few chariots and been done with it, but alas hindsight is 20/20. Certainly Dreylin's land is more appealing, and there's more of it but still siding with MH it would most likely be a defensive war, atleast to start. I'm pretty scarce on military as I've been trying to catch up on infrastructure but it's only hindered me for the current situation. The effects of a poor early game lasts through the ages .

Well right now it appears that MH and I are underdogs, the ones fighting the uphill battle. That's what RB is about right? Facing a challenge head-on and overcoming that challenge? Nothign is impossible as we saw in the apolyton demo-game, yet I have no illusions as to my skill compared to the other players in this game. Still it could be quite fun either upsetting or atleast going out with a bang (of sorts ). But the allure of the siren song is still ever so sweet. What am I to do???

[athlete4life10]

LOL. I have an NAP with both. T125 with Dreylin and T150 with MH.

[Sullla]

If you have a Non-Aggression Pact with both sides, your best course might be to pull an Imperio and sit on the sidelines for now, hope that those two will weaken each other, and then cuddle up with the winner. I don't think that's the best option, but you've kind of boxed yourself in with those NAP agreements.

At the very least, maybe you can push your own internal development while the others focus on warring.

[athlete4life10]

Well I've played my turn and fortunately as my stack was in my core it is still another turn away from being inside MH's borders so I didn't need to declare war on anybody. Mecca and Damascus are onto CA's (Mecca was in the middle of a bank), I'm going to whip madrassa's in both Zapotec and Kufah next turn then put them onto CA's. Actually I just discovered Gun powder so those 2 will probably go onto Muskets. I'm 2 turns away from being able to swap civics again so I'm planning on going to mercantilism and Theocracy. In terms of play that's where I'm at. I'll try and get a diplomatic update done tonight as well.

[athlete4life10]

Well I appreciate the suggestion Sulla but I can't sit idly? idely? idley? (ya I think that's it) That would just be cowardly though probably the best thing for me would be to do so and just continue to grow, but where's the fun in that, so this is what I've decided.

Next turn I'll move my stack into MH land and without a declaration Dreylin will know I'm not switching so I plan on using this logic.

a) He's broken an NAP with me.
b) Too long an alliance with MH to betray, morals and what not you know...
c) won't do more than attack an invading stack into mine or MH's land, aka I won't invade until the end of T125.
d) he's open to pursue any avenue of aggression against me as he wishes.
e) if pushed to far I shall break point c.

I'm not 100% set on this reasoning but I will be staying loyal to MH. While the possibility of joining what would appear to be the winning side at the start is alluring (certainly the ottomans and arabs vs the HRE should be considered favorites in that match up) I just can't get around the feeling of backstabbing I would have from such a dastardly act.