[SPOILER] Suryavarman II of Maya - Whosit & Ravus Sol

[Whosit]

Alright, Writing is done, although I went back to the previous turn to check something I should have done a while back. Everyone we know already had Writing (could get Open Borders with them). I'll go further back to see exactly when each got Writing. Maybe that can help me figure some more stuff out. I can probably still go back and figure out when some people got their second cities, and figure out a few more early techs, but from this point onwards, I don't know how much I could even figure out from demographics, even if I wasn't hopelessly behind. As more and more cities are built, untangling the numbers gets harder. At least, it's harder for me.

The short version: We're slowbie techers, and I know we were the third or fourth team to get a second city. Hopefully we'll be the first to 3rd and 4th! Or will that cripple us? WHO KNOWS!

Anyway, looks like both Nakor/Gaspar and Malakai got their second cities down in 2320 BC (turn 28). I'll console myself in that we would have had our second city several turns before that if our target destination wasn't so far away. Malakai has had Writing as long as we have known him, and Nakor/Gaspar... 2560 BC, or Turn 24. They may have teched it around the same time. They really went straight for it, unlike us. Who was better served? No idea! As my initial plans calls for rapid horizontal development... certainly going to cap at 4 cities at this point (need to come up with a name for GREEN--and I think I'll settle Orange instead of Blue next; Blue is stronger, but Orange is closer and is directly on the road to Drop/Liter). Hopefully vertical development after this will get us cranking.

Speaking of, it will probably still be some time before the road from the capital to Drop/Liter is complete. New combat units are going to be assigned to new cities, obviously, so that delays the time until our road crew has the required defense. I may decide to solve that with lots more whips. We'll see. But after the last Settler, I'm tempted to just grow as rapidly as possible. Can get to size 5 from 2 in like, 3 turns.

[Whosit]

Well, I'm trying to dig into the numbers again. For me, it's still a lot like this:

Biggest problem is trying to figure out who is building Warriors and when. Many times, when techs go up, there are extra Soldier Points, but it's generally impossible to figure out who they belong to. I can try to make guesses, of course.

Anyway, regarding the previous GingerEagle mystery, I've determined, probably using faulty logic, that if on Turn 0, he put a turn of research into some UNKNOWN Tech, the tech path of Mining > Bronze Working works out perfectly according to the rest of my data. So I'm going to go with that. But I have no idea what that Unknown is, or why he would have done that for one turn. Maybe for this very reason.

I've also been looking more closely at the English tech progression. Starting with Fishing/Mining, I think the tech goes: Bronze Working > Agriculture > Wheel > Pottery (that gets us as far as Turn 15), except when I crunched the numbers, I realized that the only way the spacing works is if they stop maximizing GNP right after Bronze Working (that is, stop working the Oasis and work something else). Working the Oasis is important for them to get Bronze Working the turn that they do, but why they would stop working it all of a sudden? Especially since their Worker wouldn't be quite done. Hmm... they could have worked a Forest Sugar tile, I suppose. Would that speed up the Worker? *double checks* No, at the point, the extra hammer would not make a difference in the time it takes to finish the Worker. This is why I get so confused. To make the numbers add up right half the time, I have to assume that my opponents are doing strange things. There's little reason they wouldn't want to ride their Financial benefits as far as possible, I think, unless they intentionally wanted to slow down research to look like less of a threat? That's still silly, I think, since there is a big distance between everyone (fairly clear even at the start of the game), and they might as well use their Super Oasis when they have nothing better to do.

Still trying to puzzle out turn 12. Nakor/Gaspar and Malakai got techs each. I assume Nakor/Gaspar got Wheel that turn, maybe even Malakai, but there's still a bunch of extra Soldier Points floating about. Warriors? It would mean 3 were built all on the same turn. Possible, but according to my data, the Warrior would have finished a turn earlier than it actually did. At the slowest possible speed. Too many gaps in my knowledge and in my capacity to manage this.

Well, I guess this was kind of a useless update. There is no turn in which Average Soldier Points increases by 400 alone (indicating Warrior or some techs), except for the turn Nakor/Gaspar get Bronze Working. Certainly, people have built defenders by this point. I also doubt that anyone here is going for Archery, since most consider it a useless, dead-end tech. Maybe. Anyway, what this means is that turns on which Warriors are built always coincide with something else happening: Techs, other units being built, even population increases.

So I'll finish off this this garble-mess:

***Soldier leaders***

Turn 0

Gaspar/Nakor: 4000
Malakai: 4000
Tredje: 6000
Kyan/RefSteel: 4000
GE/SO: 2000

Turn 4: Rival Worst increases to 4000 (GE gets Mining, most likely)
GE: 4000

Turn 5: Rival best increases to 12000 (G/N get BW: 4000 + 80000)
G/N: 12000

Turn 6: Rival Average increases 1600 (8000); Likely Kyan gets Bronze Working (check numbers)
K/R: 12000

Turn 9: Rival Average increases 1600 (8000); Malakai gets BW
Mal: 12000

Turn 10: R.A. increases 1600 (8000); Rival Worst 4000 > 6000 Probably GE gets Bronze Working. No, wouldn't account for R.W. increase (Warrior?)--Only one tech this turn. GE current Worst. No other techs learned. Hunting/Animal Husbandry??

Turn 11: R.A. increases 600 (3000); Rival Worst 6000 > 9000; Tredje gets Pop (1000), several techs learned. Tredje + Kyan/RefSteel unaccounted for. Tredje gets pop + tech. 2000 tech? Mining?

Turn 12: R.A. increases 3200 (16000); Rival Best 12000 > 19000 (7000 gain); Rival Worst 9000 > 11000; GE+Malakai size 2 (2000). 14000 outstanding (two Wheels teched?? [8000]); Tredje gets Warrior??; Malakai the new Leader? Pop (1000) + 6000?

Turn 15: R.A. increases 1600 (8000); Rival Worst 11000 > 12000 (population); Buddhism founded; GE + Kyan/Ref unaccounted techs. Warriors?

I'll try to clean that up... later.

[Whosit]

Still need something to send to the crazy-Shaka dude, Ravus. I'm nervous about keeping 'em waiting too much longer.

Got some more letters, too. You are going to be busy!

From Malakai:

Greetings Ravus

Thank you for your message, I am glad we were able to come to an agreement with regards to the NAP and like you say it is not the terms of a contract that builds a relationship but the actions of each party that determines how the relationship might grow.

From what I can tell it seems to be a grid 2 tall by 3 wide, each person had their starting square plus an additional 2 rows of tiles around their square, scouting has not confirmed yet but I think we might have a lake at each corner of our main square and therefore if you have settled on a lake its likely the border of your land and his.

I personally would consider any settling where the BFC enters someone elses territory (the initial square plus the 2 extra tiles in each direction) without prior consent is aggressive.

Also there is some kind of shift between the tiles, as the NW corner of Gaspar and Nakors land is around the middle of one edge of my land.

I am NW of them in case you didn't already know.

Anyway speak soon

OK, so he's northwest of the Voeter-whatever, not southwest. Good to know. Doubt we'll be stepping on each-others' toes any time soon. Otherwise, nothing we don't know, except that "shift" he's talking about. Sounds like the "squares" don't line up perfectly everywhere?


From Nakor/Gaspar

Greetings Voice of the Nation,

Thanks for your prompt reply to our missive, we prefer an open and honest discourse with all Civilizations as it allows us to better export the Beautiful Game.

We don't have a lot of comment on the Shakerites particular intentions, only on their unique brand of diplomacy. I can't say that our conversations have been especially friendly or especially unfriendly, only that they've been especially bizarre. By that logic, I would think your two Civilizations would get along splendidly, or perhaps the Shakerite leader is more than just one drop short of a liter. I can't imagine anyone would be foolish enough to start inter-Civilization skirmishes at this early date, particularly whilst the Indians are busy running away with the game in their size 5 capital with the Oracle in their second city. The overpowered nature of Fast Workers was so blatantly obvious on this map, that any Civilization that is too stupid to realize we need to work together, not against one another, deserves whatever it gets.

With regards to any specific non-aggression pacts between our Civilizations, assuredly Consul/Emperor Whosit's reputation certainly has no bearing on how we will treat yours or any other Civilization in this particular world. Simply put, it never occurred to us that it would be an issue, so obvious was it to us that an early rush is doomed to fail. We do not see any reason to change that perspective at this time, unless of course you have information to share with us that would change our perspective?

With regards to your pitches, we have the utmost confidence you'll soon get it right, we believe your great nation is destined to host several World Cups!

Regards,
Nakor & Gaspar

Lots of info here. Though I think we shared the concern earlier, they are still clearly worried about Kyan/RefSteel having a big edge here. Confirmed that it was them who have the Oracle (and in the second city). They also know the name of our second city. Not entirely sure how, since I have not seen a scout from them. I suspect that they got the information from the Zulu-Inca dude's, as they are the only Civ who I've seen near our border down there.

Wonder if it's possible to leverage something with the Voetbals to keep the Shakaites out of our hair. Mutual struggle against our real common foe?

In non-diplo news, 2 turns until "Green" city is founded to our near southeast. It will pick up Stone, and should have enough food to handle itself, though not in a concentrated bunch. (Note to self-upload pictures that have been sitting around.) It needs a real name. Haven't decided. Must decide now. Ummm.... BitShortAByte... I like it, but maybe for another spot? PinShortAPrick? Nonsense, but so what? Wish there was room for something like "HorseShortAKingdom." Oh well.

.... "EveShortANing"? Eh? Eh? I'll probably pick one of these. Votes... if ya' wants to.

[Serdoa]

Whosit for the C&D stuff I had the same issues when I did it the first time in PBEM7. You are probably better of doing that in Excel and tracking there pop and score increases as well as the soldier points.

Oh and generally: If something looks in C&D like it is completely senseless it is probably because you did something wrong and not because your opponents are insane Happened to me several times in PBEM7

[Ilios]

They also know the name of our second city. Not entirely sure how, since I have not seen a scout from them.

Whosit, when you're ingame, click on any rival civilization you've met, and you'll get a list of the (non-capital) cities they have.

[Rowain]

***Soldier leaders***

Turn 0

Gaspar/Nakor: 4000
Malakai: 4000
Tredje: 6000
Kyan/RefSteel: 4000
GE/SO: 2000

Turn 4: Rival Worst increases to 4000 (GE gets Mining, most likely)
GE: 4000

Turn 5: Rival best increases to 12000 (G/N get BW: 4000 + 80000)
G/N: 12000

Turn 6: Rival Average increases 1600 (8000); Likely Kyan gets Bronze Working (check numbers)
K/R: 12000

Turn 9: Rival Average increases 1600 (8000); Malakai gets BW
Mal: 12000

Turn 10: R.A. increases 1600 (8000); Rival Worst 4000 > 6000 Probably GE gets Bronze Working. No, wouldn't account for R.W. increase

But it would: GE would increase to 12000 and Tredje would become the new RW with his starting 6000.

[Whosit]

Summing up last few comments

Someone needs to tell me to stop trying to think at 3am.

[Whosit]

Alrighty, picture time!

[Rowain]

My oh my so many nice woodlands. If all locations look the same the Indians will get a lot out of their workers.

GE was one i didn't have much of a summery for his mental profile. So this one should be a bit more trickery to figure out his aims. He could be planning to attack soon, thus not wanting pacts. Or he could just want to keep his options open.

GE is aided by Sandover (for whom you have PBEM3 for profiling). To sum sandover's diplostyle: If you look weak you can expect to have his troops knocking on your door soon. He trusts military presence more than any NAP.

[Whosit]

It is good that my grace is still upon this thread (RIP, other thread I don't care about OK not really). More pictures, more info!

First:

WTF??


(The sign relates to a kinda-in joke with a friend of mine. Pay it little mind.)

Clear world-buildering, and possibly another example of what Malakai was telling us about? I will investigate this further. Also of important note is that I think we have Toroidal world-wrap:



So, Duel size map for purpose of city-count costs, and the world wrap to maximize the cost for whatever size map this actually is, re: Distance. Speaking of:







So, overall, City 3 costs us 3 more gold. Based on my calculations, City 4 will also cost us 3 more gold, so a per-turn cost of 10 gold. Kinda hefty, but I think we can endure that. We're the first to have a third city (out of everyone we know, at least), and I'll bet gold that we're going to be the first to 4 (due in, oh, 4-5 turns).

Per city costs have been, well, minimal with just the capital, 0.72 with 2, 1.08 with 3, and it will be 1.44 with 4. I expect city 4 to have a distance cost of about 0.76. Total cost will be 10.25+, but as CiV truncates fractions, the odds of it bringing the cost up to 11 are about nil, I think.

Let's see. Library in cap will be built at... the end of turn 38. Sometimes I have trouble figuring out how turns roll in PBEM. Should be able to whip Library in Drop/Liter on turn 39. I'll just run gold until then. Math should effectively be due in 7 turns. Oh well, them's the breaks. Oh note: City 4 will be the first city to not bring in an immediate income at all. Well, very little. It'll have a road connection soon, which is good, but as there are no commerce tiles to really work right away (like an oasis), it'll be poor. But most of the resources in its radius (maybe all) will produce some commerce when improved, and I plan to just lay down cottages like no tomorrow, so it should eventually show a profit. Eve/Ning will never produce a profit, I think.

And, of course: Ravus, you'd better have something for me to send to the Shakaites! Or whatever they call themselves. I'm getting nervous. It's been 4 days. If they get perturbed by our silence, they may plan to get aggressive. If they haven't already. I don't know. I just don't like being impolite. Unintentionally.