Winter Wonderland: Selrahc's FFH 2 thread

[Ilios]

Hey, could you explain to the FFH noobs lurking why you're heading to Cartography?

(I know why, but it's your thread after all!)


Oh and congrats on conquering the land of the treehuggers...

[Selrahc]

Oh, yeah. Cartography is a fairly nice technology. It opens up a few things. Map trading and open border agreements are both unlocked here which is handy. There is also the Pact of the Nilhorn ritual which PB has gone for. That gives you three hill giants, who have good strength and the ability to bomb down city defences(by throwing rocks at them I imagine).

The main reason I'm going for cartography though is for the City States civic. City states *heavily* reduces maintenance costs. Taking 85% of distance costs away and 15% of the number of cities cost. Since the first two civics (despotism and God King) actually increase maintenance you'll be noticing a substantial reduction in costs by using City States. On Emperor when you have any sort of decent sized emperor you're going to need to plan for a shift into either City States or Aristocracy(which also reduces maintenance, just not as sharply). City states has some bad sides. It reduces culture production and makes cities more likely to flip away from you. It also doesn't have the nifty bonuses that theocracy, republic, god king and aristocracy have. It's a pure maintenance reducer. In the long run you're probably eventually going to want to leave city states behind unless you have an ungodly huge empire.

Later on I'm going to have quite a lot of options to deal with costs. Courthouses are obvious, but in FFH you've also got things like Markets and Gambling Houses which add directly to money production. I'm hoping Runes of Kilmorph spreads to a few of my cities via trade routes, because that gives some nice free gold. Temples of Kilmorph are also normally handy for that as weell, but that's not really going to be an option for me unless I can convince PB to sell me some (Priests can make religious buildings in the cities of other civilizations). Add in a healthy chunk of merchant or priest specialists and it's perfectly possible to run very high on the science slider even with a large empire.

Oh and congrats on conquering the land of the treehuggers...

Not quite done yet sadly. If I'd been a few turns quicker maybe.. Ah well. I can't complain. This has been almost too quick. Bob has a scout in the area so I've sent him a message asking if he'll help me in the search for Sareln so I can finish the job.

[Selrahc]

An almost ridiculous amount of diplo going on today. I'll update you later.

[Selrahc]

Remember a while ago I mentioned that going into the mid game I wanted to develop stronger relations with at least one other player besides PB? Well this was my first real attempt.

The pretext of course was the hunt for Sareln. Little did I know when I started this conversation that it would lead me into a web of intrigue and cheese.

me: Hey
You get my email?
bobchillingworth: howdy
yeah
I'm not actually sure where my scout is tbh
told Dave he could do whatever he wanted with it
uh but once I regain control, assuming it isn't dead, was going to try to get contact with PB for "realz"
instead of my fake first turn map-maker's mistake contact
me: Right.
bobchillingworth: I'll let you know if I see anything, though- surely he can't have settled too far away?
me: He had two turns of movement with the settler in basically any direction
With some roads.
There are a fair few places he could be.. but not so many I won't find him soon
me: I mean I'm getting ripped apart by maintenance here
so finding him quickly is a bit of a priority so I can bring home the army
bobchillingworth: if you don't find him quickly, why not make peace? Presumably he's crippled and you got one or two cities out of it (not sure if you kept his capital)
or don't make peace and just let him live in fear, whatever :P
me: Yeah, that's an option.
bobchillingworth: type away, I'll brb
me: I'm actually thinking of just continuing on into Cull's lands.
But I don't want to leave an angry elf in some unknown location nearby
Cartography is due in soonish, which will solve a lot of the maintenance problems.
And pillage cash and razing should keep the army maintenance at bay.
me: (Maybe I shouldn't have told you that. But if I go through with that idea then he'll know soon enough anyway)
bobchillingworth: heya, back
personally, I won't mourn if you wipe out Cull
but I will be a bit anxious, what with your army then being a bit closer to me...
me: Just build some Moroi's. You'll be fine.
bobchillingworth: hehe
burning bloooood
me: Yeah. Neatly negates slow
so you could just mob me.
bobchillingworth: turn all my cities over to the barbs
me: Only if you don't delete them after battle.
And if they're alive to be deleted then they'll have been killing my units
which makes them a success
bobchillingworth: ! .... I've never thought to do that
I guess in sp I've always just been able to wipe them out
me: If you're in a secure position it's probably worth trying that.
Some of them go back to normal
bobchillingworth: since I usually go for city raider with the BB ones, if they win and turn they're easy to kill in the field
yeah it's 25% to go barb, 10% chance for normal
me: Up for a map trade in 6t?
(When I get cartography)
bobchillingworth: I think so
me: I've already done one with PB, so you'll be getting his as well.
bobchillingworth: sweet
me: Although fair warning, I'm probably going to trade yours on to him
bobchillingworth: hehe I got a panicky post from dave- he thought you had vassalized PB
me: Wow. Why?
bobchillingworth: OB line has similar colors, it seems
me: Heh
If I'd vassalized him we'd have been pretty far down the tech tree for this period
Some incredibly lucky hut techs or something.
bobchillingworth: yeah
me: Listen.. when do you think you'll have a decent safety net against the priests?
I think I could do you a NAP for a bit.
So you don't think I'm just going to do a war mongering rampage after you.
bobchillingworth: I'd like that
would need to get my hands on the game first to get an estimate
me: Alright.
bobchillingworth: last I saw I had second best GNP... that should, uh, roughly double in value in a few turns
so shouldn't take too long to get Manor -> training yard in my few cities
me: Alright, well you come up with a figure and I'll probably agree to it.
I guess that's everything for now?
bobchillingworth: I think so
me: Okay then.
Just.. don't tip off Cull, and if you do see Sareln's border I'd appreciate a tip off.
bobchillingworth: aight
yeah I'm not going to make the priests of winter mad by ratting you out :P
me: Cool.
Alright, talk to you later then.

Went pretty much as I expected. I offered him quite a lot more than I'd be getting(Free NAP at a time when the Illians are at their strongest especially) in order to hopefully keep him at ease in order to develop future trade and diplomacy.

Telling him about my nascent plans against Cull was intentional. We've mentioned Cull before and I got the impression that it would be fine by him to remove him from the game. I kind of wanted to gauge the reaction.

I also lined him up for a map trade. Partially as a way to fill in the large blanks in the south. Partially as a way to develop relations. Partially to give a fairly immediate incentive to help me find Sareln.

I'm honestly not sure if I'm coming across as a huge schmuck in these negotiations. I'm basically just taking the view that most of the stuff we're talking about is small peanuts. In a relatively even game like Civ it might be worth quibbling over those things(Although I doubt I'd do so even then) but FFH isn't balanced enough for them to really matter. Someone knowing a little more or a little less about the map won't really change things. What will matter is managing your diplomacy so that people don't feel compelled to attack you. I hope I've been fairly successful at that despite the dramatic early game shenanigans.. but maybe not. Maybe I'm just coming across as over eager to please.


Anyway, my being over generous to Bob would also have ramifications on PB, so I thought I'd get the go ahead from him on the map trade before it went ahead. I didn't want to jeopardize my existing diplomacy for a minor deal. The map trade was a secondary concern. And I imagine Bob was also far more concerned about the NAP than the Map.

me: Hey
I was just about to send you an email
pocketbeetle: Ello
Oooh, what've I done to deserve that?
me: I've got bob lined up for a map trade in 6t
After I get cartography
pocketbeetle: Eh?
You're getting Cartography?
me: I'm going to get cartography because I am dieing for maintenance
pocketbeetle: Okay
Ah, city states
me: Zacly
pocketbeetle: Okay. So what's up with Bob then?
me: Anyway, I thought I'd see if you wanted to do another map exchange after I've done that.
Um.. nothing much. He has a scout nearby the combat zone, and I need some help finding Sareln's last city.
pocketbeetle: Hmmm. Well that's very kind of you to let me know and offer
Question: Have you talked this over/ committed to this yet?
me: Not comitted to it thouroughly
(Ick spelling)
I've mentioned it to him.
But I could cancel it.
pocketbeetle: Don't worry =D. Let me put things to you from my perspective.
Sent at 3:39 PM on Tuesday
pocketbeetle: I've been quite happy with the current situation - us two having the best maps.
We made an effort to explore early on, and so deserve it.
I personally was hoping to wait until gold trading, or at least open borders (resource trading) before handing map knowledge over.
I don't see the reason to give free info over to civs who have just sat on their ass and waited
me: Yes, that's a fair enough point.
pocketbeetle: Equally, I can see things from your point - you want to find Sareln's city and think Bob can help you
If I can 'cancel' out that last point, would you reconsider?
me: Honestly, you don't have to do that.
If you've got a problem with the map deal I can accept that.
And not go through with it for now.
Of course if you know something about Sareln's city location that would be helpful.
pocketbeetle: Well, I don't want you making decisions because I've got a problem with it. I don't want you to feel I'm forcing you to do stuff.
I'd rather you reached the decision yourself
Well, how is the sacvenger hunt going?
*scavenger
me: I don't even know really. I haven't found anything. I don't know if I'm looking in the right direction yet.
His settler was in his capital 2t ago though.
So it can't be too far away
pocketbeetle: Which direction are you looking? I take it you're using the Ice elementals to search +1 tile?
Have you split the Priests up?
me: Not yet.
I don't want to risk them getting mugged.
Scant risk as that is.
(A stack of 3 warriors for example could take one down if they were on their own)
pocketbeetle: You think so? I think they're more hardy than that, but okay.
me: Well it depends on terrain.
And luck
But I think it's conceivable.
pocketbeetle: True
How about I write you a short diplo email in a sec then?
me: Alright.
pocketbeetle: Oh while we're at it, have you chatted with Iskender recently?
me: Not yet.
pocketbeetle: I don't have contact, but we've exchanged some pms, he seems fun
me: I sent him a quick hello when he first took over, he said he was going to get to grips with his situation first.
Before diving into diplo.
And told me he'd get in contact if he had something to discuss.
Nothing since then.
pocketbeetle: Okay no worries Was just curious. Think Bob has contact with him yet?
me: No, he doesn't.
He's holding off for some reason.
pocketbeetle: Strange. Okay, let me go scribble.
Sent at 3:50 PM on Tuesday
pocketbeetle: Oh and just to repeat, thanks for letting me know you were thinking of trading maps with Bob. I appreciate it
me: No worries.

PB understandably didn't really want us to lose our early lead in map information. I was actually somewhat expecting this as the control of information seems a lot more important to him than it is to me. His offer to help me find Sareln's city was intriguing however. Did he have a scout in the region that I hadn't known about? Had Sareln confided in him? The truth was actually much more interesting.

Greetings Mighty Selrahc,

I've been meaning to ask, when are you going to rename those cities to carol songs?
'Gereth Minar' doesn't quite have the same ring as 'Jingle Bells', you know.

Also, I came across my head ratman Veezheesumuunuun yesterday, he was holding a copy of what *looked like* your orders to Illian troops.
And...I don't wish to be indelicate...but he was laughing.

I think he may have an idea where the Svartalfar are hiding.
Would you like me to put him in contact with you?

Kind Regards,
Pb, Zoo Caretaker Boy-King.

Greetings to Emperor Pocketbeetle

I believe your ratman must be wrong! The Winter King makes no mistakes. However, the troops sometimes make errors in their interpretation of orders. Perhaps your ratman and I should have a discussion and see if we can come the root of this issue.

Greetings Selrahc,

Oh dear, of course, I must have been wrong.

But I'll mention it to him.
Try to be gentle with him, and forgive his manners.

Regards,
Pb, Multiple choice Boy-King

Later that night, after performing a detailed ‘inspection’ of the local taverns in Silent Night, you’re slowly and unsteadily returning back to the royal palace when a shadow detaches itself from the wall.



A pair of eyes gleam at you behind long yellow teeth grin, a pointed snout, twitching whiskers and huge ears complete the nightmarish visage.

“Alright Boss,” hisses the Ratman, “I heard you were interested in talking to me. I’m Veez-”

At which point the creature rattles off a long complicated string of syllables, that even in a sober state you couldn’t possibly hope to replicate.



Drawing yourself up, you nod, trying to appear regal yet not trusting your voice.



“Other Kings limit themselves to losing their crowns, their wives, sometimes even their dignity,” the creature says, “you, it would seem, managed to lose a city.”

It chuckles.



The two bodyguards behind you shift their hands to their swords, but you choose to say nothing, continuing to stare frostily at the insolent beast.



“Yes well,” Veez continues, appearing unsettled, “I may be able to help you with that.”.

“But…” and the leer returns, “It’s going to cost you Boss, lotsa cheese, and not just the edible kind if you get my meaning.”



Do you:

a) Tell your guards to draw their swords and seize the creature. He’ll tell you where the damn Elves are if you have to beat it out of him personally!

b) Walk away from the Ratmen, you want nothing to do with his kind?

c) Remind Veez that his King owes the Illians information?

Choose your own PBEM huh?

I'm going for A.

With a word you order your guards to draw their swords and seize the vile thing.



But before the command has even left your mouth you hear two rapid thunks, like the sound of arrows hitting wood, and the guards on either side of you slump.



If it’s possible, the -thing‘s- grin grows even broader.



“Price just increased Boss. We’re not talking any type of mouldy cheese anymore, we’re talking puuure Cheddar. The expensive shit.”



Care to choose again?

b) Walk away from the Ratmen, you want nothing to do with his kind.

c) Remind Veez that his King owes the Illians information.

Not much option now...

C it is.

“Pffft,” splutters Veez, drawing himself up. “That nancy boy may like you and offer favours like wine, but that doesn’t buy you much credit with us.”



“Although…” and again his eyes gleam, “Some cheese is always better than no cheese now isn’t it? Famous saying of the kindred that is, hmmm.”

Clearly he comes to a decision.



“I’ll make you an offer Boss, and you won’t find a better one this side of the island, that I tell you,” he chuckles and mutters something under his breath.

You strain but can only catch a couple of words, something about ‘the only offer.’



“We’ll give you the Silver service for wiping that debt clean. We’ll tell you why you can’t find no city around Thariss and maybe even give you an idea of what’s going on, what those stupid blind senses are missing.”



Once more, yellowed teeth get bared.



“But if you want the -details- Boss, all the gory details, then you’re going to need the Gold Service. And considering that stunt you just tried to pull, no small token gonna cover that. You’re going to have to owe us by the end of it, nothing too much, a small favour, a piece of info.

But it will be something.” His eyes flash. “Pick Boss, and make it quick.”



a) I’ll take the Silver, let the slate be wiped clean.

b) I’ll take the Gold, even though we will end up owing these creatures.
c) I want nothing to do with this, walk away.

At this point I asked whether or not the discussion was in character...

For the first time, Veez appears offguard.
He looks confusedly at you and says "Eh?"

Then he laughs again.

"Does the little King need someone to hold his hand? Did we forget to bring a nursemaid, precious? Our King owes you, so we're willing to accept we owe you.
But if you owe usss...well I guess that means you owe our King, -if- we remember to tell him about the debt that is." He looks pleased with himself. "Bad memory I got sometimes."

to a confusing response. Ah well.

Selrahc looks around at the fresh coating of snow on the ground and looks back at the warm glow of the tavern. Normally he would return to the Ice Throne to seek guidance from Ulvin on affairs of this level. But this clearly wasn't the time.

"I'll take your deal Veez"

"Which one your Kingliness?" asks the ratman, his tone containing none of the respect it should have.

I responded "Gold"

Veez grins.

“A wise choice Boss, you’ll be hearing from us soon.” and with that, he fades back into the shadows. Movement in the corner of your eye tells you that the bowmen have withdrawn too.



Suddenly much more sober, you wonder if maybe you should start reinspecting those taverns in earnest.


Well, that’s for you to decide.

Interesting... I really want to read PB's thread now.


That was the stage at which I posted on the thread that I'd had a lot of diplomacy. I held off on posting it because I lacked the resolution. That came this morning.

You wake up in your bedchamber this morning to the knowledge that something is not right.

It has been over five days since your meeting in the dark with the Ratman, and since then, nothing. Silence.

You’ve amused yourself in the meantime, devising all kinds of elaborate torture rituals you intend to use on the creature if it should turn out it was wasting your time. -Most- are downright sadistic (needs improvement), and -all- of them end up with Veez’s tail mounted on your wall (satisfactory), pride of place above the firepit.

Just like any other morning the dawn light is spreading through the window, illuminating the room.
But the smell brought with it is not fresh, more…musty. The smell of a sewer.
Standing up, you soon realise why.

A small package sits in the dead centre of the room. Imprinted on its upper side, a large black pawprint.
Walking over, you pick the parcel up and unfold it, finding two letters and a note within.

The first letter is a tattered piece of paper containing a scrawled jumble of words.

It begins:

“Ello Boss – nice digs you got here.”

You can just picture the creature grinning as you read.
The thought is not a pretty one.

“Turns out when you plant an Elf in the ground and water copiously, they do turn into a tree after all. A Weeping Willow! Hah!”

The script wavers briefly, then continues.

“Course that only happens after they’ve stopped making up silly words like ‘mercy’ and ‘par-lay’ though.
Anyhoo, a nice Elf I met kindly donated the message alongside this one.
Says he was a courier, headed for the Rockheads. One of five.
Apparently they got a problem with messages going missing.”

The script loops wildly out of line again.

“Should answer all your questions and more.”

You stop reading to contemplate the second message.
This letter is much more elegant, written in a flowing, continuous hand on rich parchment. A broken seal of wax marks the outside.
It reads:

“Salutations Cull, Leader of the Khazad,

I find myself in need of a temporary home while I flee from the
Illians with a settler. I have already secured a promise of a more
permanent home and would be willling to offer you gold, maps, 1 of the
palace mana (the Calabim have dibs on another) and a supply of elven
workers. I also have the map information that I have assembled, and
have already acquired hunting, though have not had the opportunity to
saturate the maps with my scouts.

The Calabim state that they are able to provide me with permanent
settlement in 13 turns + move-time. They would offer me <<some blood
has made this sentence illegible>> such moves folly. My own settler
will flee far from the Illians. So the timeline looks something like this:

You loan me a city --> I found another city in a safe spot and you
reclaim yours --> The Calabim found me a permanent settlement, and I
rebuild from there, perhaps keeping the temporary outpost, perhaps
scrapping it / giving it over to the barbs, or handing it over to
either you or the Calabim.

Time is something of a critical factor in these negotiations, so
please follow up with either a positive or negative reaction as soon
as possible.

Sincerely,
Sareln

P.S. And now you know why the turn took so much longer than normal to
get through Bob... he says this is starting to sound like a CIV
pyramid scheme :P.”

You turn back to the Ratman’s tatty letter.

“Shouldn’t come as a big surprise to you really Boss, the pasty pale ones sticking with other pasty ones.
Now, as for that settler, don’t you go demanding the deal required we tell you where that one is. Not even my boys can keep up with an Elf in its home forest.
Last we saw, he was hotfooting out of Thariss like a small army was after him, and funnily enough there was.
Said small army scared him so much, there’s a damn good chance he’s still bloody running.

So that just leaves the final question, the big one, doesn’t it?
Where the pansy Elves are currently hiding, yeah?
Well, riddle me this Boss:
If a Dwarven city falls in a forest, does anyone notice that it was full of Elves?”

The letter ends:
“Never let it be said that the Kindred do not deliver.
Veezheesumuunuun”

At the bottom there appears to be a long list of terms, all written in the tiniest letters ratly possible.

Apparently by reading this, you have agreed not to share the details with anybody, have been entered automatically into a raffle to win a new set of armour, and can now purchase some blue pills for the low low price of 3gp each.

Thoughtfully, you pull out the final note, written in a childlike hand.

“Greetings Selrahc,
If this were an imaginary world where people could speak to each other instantly over long distances, it’s entirely possible you’d be jumping up and down right now screaming ‘WHO STOLE MY KILLZ???’

But before you decide to rain ice, brimstone and retribution upon all concerned, please could you take the time to have a little chat with me?

I think it is significant, that the potentially weaker player has ended up with the ‘sucker’ end of the deal. Namely the surrender of his second city for a significant number of turns, sacrificing all growth, income and production at such a crucial stage of the game. Not to mention the unenviable honour of being the obvious target for your wrath.
Meanwhile the other beneficiary from this agreement receives an equal payout, and for the low low price of a settler, continues to grow strong.

Kind Regards,
Pb, Concerned Boy-King.”

Carefully you fold the pieces of paper back together, taking special care with the elegant parchment.

You stand motionless in the centre of the room for a moment, considering what you have learned; then grimly, walk to the door and call for the Guard Commander to attend you at once.

As you turn away, one last detail catches your eye.

Your drinks cabinet has been emptied.

Now that is some juicy info. I'm going to have to think about how I react to it. I checked out the most important info in game and Cull does indeed lack his second city. I've got the priests heading towards his borders anyway and it seems appropriate to continue.

I'll see what PB has to say before following it up diplomatically. But it's looking like Sareln's pulled off a neat escape here and has probably ensured his survival. I'm kind of glad about that, regardless of how likely it is to come back and bite me later.

It's also looking like Bob and Cull are supporting Sareln seeking to tie up the priests in a wild goose chase, delaying me for as long as possible.

Anyway. I'm not going to get angry about it. I've played diplomacy and werewolf and other games of negotiation. I actually really love all this intrigue and backstabbing, despite the fact that I'm not too great at doing it myself. But I've got a few things to consider strategically and diplomatically going forward.

(Hopefully I haven't lost everyone due to the big walls of text. If anyone has any hints on formatting this post to make it more easy to peruse let me know. I get that it currently looks like a series of big blocky quotes.)

[Square Leg]

Dont worry about hoards of text - they are necessary somethimes! Especially when they are as interesting as this!

[Adlain]

(Hopefully I haven't lost everyone due to the big walls of text. If anyone has any hints on formatting this post to make it more easy to peruse let me know. I get that it currently looks like a series of big blocky quotes.)

I doubt you will lose any lurkers (I myself like it) but you might need to restock the minibar after that rat emptied it out for you

[Selrahc]

Alright, so let me follow up on my last diplomatic post.

I had a talk with PB about it and he is pretty clearly nudging me in the direction of Bob. And I can see why. Bob clearly is getting the best part of Sareln's deal.

On the other hand I know PB is partly talking out of self interest. He's said before that he considered myself and Bob his two most dangerous opponents.

Let's consider the implications for PB if I declare on Bob. One of his biggest threats is taken out of the running and I will be embroiled in conflict with the remnants of 3 empires, which would probably keep me occupied for a long while.

For me, killing off Bob would be a mixed blessing. I'm not going to be able to claim any of his territory for a long long time. Iskender would have a free run on settling, and no close neighbour to squabble with apart from myself. On the other hand killing him off early is going to be a lot easier, and he will almost definitely be one of the strongest contendors if left unchecked. My plan has been to befriend Bob, and later attempt to play him off against Archduke or Iskender after the replacement. That needs serious evaluation for viability if Bob is part of a shadowy cabal working to bring me down.



The priests are very close to Cull. 2 turns transit. I'm pretty sure I'm going there to try and raze at least Sareln's city.

The obvious next diplomatic step is a confrontation with the parties involved. See if I can break up the cabal. Because if I can't I'm going to have to get maximum value out of these priests on the battlefield...



On another note, woulod anyone be willing to be a turnplayer next week? I'm moving into university accomodation for my MA next Thursday and the house doesn't currently have internet access. Hopefully it should be sorted out pretty quickly, but I may be unable to play turns for a few days. I'll still have my smartphone and access to university computers so I'll be able to handle diplo, and give instructions, but I'll be unable to play the turn myself. If anyone could help me out here I'd be really grateful. Most likely it would be for only a few days.

[Square Leg]

the save file isn't very big - I have downloaded it to my phone and then transferred it to my pc to play and vice verser to upload before - a bit of a ball ache but better than not playing!

[Selrahc]

This turn I killed a bear.

Tune in next time for another exciting update.




Square Leg: I'll have to give that a try. Hopefully it'll work.

[Selrahc]

Looking into the future, my land is flush with health resources and sparse on happiness. I'll definitely be able to claim

Health:
Deer
Sheep
Cow
Pig
Fish
Rice
Corn
Wheat

Which is missing just bananas, clam and crab for a full set.

A notable good point is that I have all three vegetable resources, which means that whichever city builds the Deruptus Brewing House will get a chunky +30% commerce. And I'm going to have to build the Deruptus because my happiness situation well...

Happiness:
Cotton
Ivory


I've also got incense, but that isn't a real happiness resource. Particularly for the Illians. When looking around for additional happiness I could maybe claim sugar and fur, but both would be quite a long way from the current core. Adding in Ale and I've got a base happy cap of 11 at most and more likely 9 or 10. Looks like I'm going to have to build a lot of carnivals and public baths.