[SPOILERS-PBEM15] Mansa Musa of the Ottomans

[Piet]

Chatted with TT about GLH

[22:19:25] Peter Hannappel: Hi TT
[22:19:29] Peter Hannappel: Your there ?
[22:19:41] Jack Birkinshaw: hey
[22:19:47] Jack Birkinshaw: i'm here for a little bit
[22:19:56] Peter Hannappel: just wanted to pop in and ask how its going
[22:20:18] Peter Hannappel: and confirm that my mail about GLH has arrived
[22:20:45] Jack Birkinshaw: it did - just had a lot of crazy stuff going on atm so I have sidelined a lot of diplo
[22:20:52] Peter Hannappel: ah, and congratz on Stonehenge !
[22:20:58] Peter Hannappel: allright
[22:21:35] Peter Hannappel: everything ok with my plan from your side ?
[22:22:06] Jack Birkinshaw: ooh just got the turn now
[22:22:15] Peter Hannappel: thought I would ring up you industrious folk before I commit to it
[22:23:05] Jack Birkinshaw: well I was looking at it as my coastal city has a lot of production potential & the map suggests that it is worth building
[22:23:16] Jack Birkinshaw: but I can be 'convinced' to let it slide
[22:23:54] Peter Hannappel: 'convinced' like ?
[22:26:31] Jack Birkinshaw: well there'd be two things really - firstly convincing to let you have it, then convincing to open borders with you and give you the benefits
[22:26:50] Jack Birkinshaw: now the second is much easier than the first and has some benefits for you too
[22:27:37] Peter Hannappel: now, I could I convice you to not race me for it ?
[22:27:46] Peter Hannappel: wait
[22:28:01] Peter Hannappel: how could I convice you to not race me for it
[22:28:23] Peter Hannappel: grr
[22:28:28] Peter Hannappel: *convince*
[22:29:37] Jack Birkinshaw: Well I would like to throw this out first - you supply me with a Settler & 2 workers. I give you free reign on TGL plus open borders plus 1 free missionary of my religion
[22:30:45] Peter Hannappel: hm - this would be too much - already stunting my growth a bit when I build it and this would stunt it much more
[22:31:46] Peter Hannappel: But I might have an idea here
[22:31:58] Jack Birkinshaw: i'm open to suggestions
[22:32:09] Peter Hannappel: you know that we have marble in the south of our neutral zone ?
[22:32:46] Jack Birkinshaw: vaguely yes
[22:33:39] Peter Hannappel: we have still to distribute settling rights there
[22:34:11] Peter Hannappel: perhaps we can do something with this
[22:34:28] Jack Birkinshaw: possibly - do you have a screenshot of the area in question?
[22:35:00] Peter Hannappel: I will patch one together
[22:35:07] Peter Hannappel: one moment
[22:35:09] Jack Birkinshaw: kk
[22:38:38] *** Peter Hannappel sent NeutralZone-1.jpg ***
[22:39:39] Jack Birkinshaw: there's a lot of desert ther
[22:40:11] Peter Hannappel: yeah, it is not a really good site
[22:40:28] Peter Hannappel: but I do not know exactly whats on your side of the map
[22:40:42] Jack Birkinshaw: peaks and desert unfortunately
[22:41:08] Jack Birkinshaw: i think its a deliberately poor location designed by mapmaker
[22:41:47] Peter Hannappel: allright - so this doesn't seem to fit for you
[22:42:03] Jack Birkinshaw: if it was a better location i'd have considered it
[22:42:10] Peter Hannappel: sure
[22:42:30] Peter Hannappel: we can look at it again when we try to share the border region
[22:44:27] Jack Birkinshaw: indeed - though I would like to resolve the GLH race/non-race now preferably before either of us starts committing too much and make things harder
[22:44:42] Jack Birkinshaw: what would you be willing to offer me to not race you?
[22:46:09] Peter Hannappel: I would concede claims to up to three wonders of your choice - although this may not be so valuable for you, since i am not industrial
[22:47:16] Jack Birkinshaw: how about something like this:
[22:48:11] Jack Birkinshaw: 1 settler plus a free 15 turn loan of your gold resource and you give me your spare wheat resource until I have my own source?
[22:48:19] Jack Birkinshaw: less growth hurt
[22:48:58] Peter Hannappel: cant do this
[22:49:56] Peter Hannappel: conceding claims plus 20 turns of sugar when we have trades routes (kind of beelining calendar, so this will be early)
[22:50:43] Peter Hannappel: I cannot go much further unfortunately
[22:50:55] Jack Birkinshaw: i think we are nearly there
[22:51:02] Peter Hannappel: GLH is worthless without the coastal cities to match it
[22:51:49] Jack Birkinshaw: ok I'll take that deal as long as you also agree to spread my religion to all your cities - I shall supply an initial missionary when I can
[22:52:34] Jack Birkinshaw: hang on
[22:52:44] Peter Hannappel: thats a big one - have to think about it
[22:52:54] Jack Birkinshaw: what does conceding claims mean?
[22:54:15] Peter Hannappel: You name the wonders, I will not build them. You would have to choose in the next few turns however
[22:54:26] Peter Hannappel: because my tech path may depend on them
[22:55:19] Jack Birkinshaw: I'm not really that fussed on conceding claims - wonderwise i'm on the low burner for a while - time to make stonehenge and financial useful
[22:55:59] Peter Hannappel: yeah - but thats also really an argument against building GLH
[22:56:16] Jack Birkinshaw: yeah but GLH is going to be pretty damn good on this map
[22:56:32] Jack Birkinshaw: I would delay expansion for that only
[22:58:08] Jack Birkinshaw: How about 15 turn gold and sugar loans (but not at same time and with some turns notice) plus the wheat for free until my own supply (as its a spare)?

or

15 turn sugar, free wheat & religion spread
[22:58:25] Jack Birkinshaw: this includes me granting you open borders with no extra costs
[22:59:01] Peter Hannappel: Problem with the gold is - i will need it dearly until calendar comes up
[22:59:39] Peter Hannappel: Could do with 20 turns of sugar and free wheat until you have connected yours
[23:00:00] Jack Birkinshaw: remember the gold won't be until we at least hook up a trade connection anyway
[23:00:22] Jack Birkinshaw: and that will be a while so if you are beelining calendar it will be at a similar time
[23:01:01] Peter Hannappel: it is simply not worth it
[23:01:25] Peter Hannappel: I would extend above offer with spreading buddhism to 3 of my cities
[23:01:53] Peter Hannappel: which could be well more if I do not manage to found an own religion
[23:03:46] Peter Hannappel: and I really think this is fair - think about it - you would have to tech sailing & masonry, set up the lighthouse (allright, it will be good) and pump out GLH
[23:04:46] Peter Hannappel: thats with my capital already fully improved building its lighthouse while regrowing from a settler whip atm
[23:04:59] Peter Hannappel: so I am not even sure who would win a race
[23:05:16] Peter Hannappel: I just do not want to commit everything to it
[23:05:33] Jack Birkinshaw: If you up the spread to 5 cities i'll take it?
[23:06:05] Jack Birkinshaw: it can be within a generous time limit
[23:06:26] Peter Hannappel: that would be important, yes
[23:06:55] Peter Hannappel: lets make it 4 cities, I think I can use about this much additional monastaries
[23:08:04] Jack Birkinshaw: ok - so 20 turns sugar, free wheat until i have my own source and agreement to spread buddhism to 4 of your cities, say within 30 turns of me gifting the initial missionary?
[23:09:01] Jack Birkinshaw: i dunno if you will be going for OR or building them from a monastary
[23:09:46] Peter Hannappel: I think this will do. Wheat as soon as we got trade routes and open borders, sugar with a 5-turn-notice ?
[23:10:20] Jack Birkinshaw: ok - so open borders as soon as the trade route is established?
[23:11:36] Peter Hannappel: I think so. It will be a while anyway.
[23:11:42] Jack Birkinshaw: yeah
[23:12:02] Peter Hannappel: one last thing - I will have to look at an ETA for your wheat
[23:12:52] Peter Hannappel: because I dont see one one your map
[23:15:50] Jack Birkinshaw: well tbh I haven't seen a source yet
[23:16:06] Peter Hannappel: so lets make this a timed gift
[23:16:13] Jack Birkinshaw: i dunno
[23:16:35] Jack Birkinshaw: you will get open borders unconditionally, a wheat gift until I find one isn't too bad I don't think
[23:16:51] Jack Birkinshaw: seen as the trade routes help you more than the wheat helps me
[23:18:26] Peter Hannappel: the wheat will be more important as cities grow - so I might need it mid/late game - and I will certainly be ready to trade it to you after the gift runs out
[23:18:51] Peter Hannappel: I would say - Wheat for 40 turns after trade connection is established
[23:19:11] Jack Birkinshaw: lets make it 50 and then renegotiate?
[23:20:30] Peter Hannappel: this should work
[23:22:34] Peter Hannappel: so it is wheat for 50 turns as soon as trade and borders are opened, sugar for 20 turns with a 5-turn-notice and spreading buddhism to 4 of my cities after receiving the initial missionary you will provide. in exchange you won't be contesting for GLH
[23:22:54] Peter Hannappel: and you will keep open borders up
[23:23:04] Jack Birkinshaw: yup
[23:23:20] Peter Hannappel: ok, thats a deal then
[23:23:42] Jack Birkinshaw: sorted
[23:23:58] Peter Hannappel: Should we additionally discuss a trade connection between us ?
[23:24:14] Peter Hannappel: but I think this is a little bit early
[23:24:43] Jack Birkinshaw: what do you mean? A road connection?
[23:24:48] Peter Hannappel: yes
[23:24:54] Peter Hannappel: setting up the connection
[23:25:25] Peter Hannappel: will probably not happen from my side during the next 25 or so turns
[23:25:57] Jack Birkinshaw: well I've settled city 3 this turn and now I'm not focussing on TGL I will have city 4 soonish which its bfc likely will touch the dividing line
[23:26:42] Peter Hannappel: allright - then we could manage it around T60 or so
[23:27:30] Peter Hannappel: I will think about when I can get some free worker turns
[23:27:35] Jack Birkinshaw: yeah
[23:27:57] Jack Birkinshaw: we both have an interest in it happening as soon as possible so it will happen quickly anyway
[23:28:22] Peter Hannappel: will settle T3 in two turns and C4/5 shortly after, but none of them will be near you
[23:29:31] Peter Hannappel: but I suppose C6 will be near the border zone
[23:29:43] Peter Hannappel: so around T60 sounds reasonable
[23:29:53] Jack Birkinshaw: yeah
[23:30:41] Peter Hannappel: allright - glad we solved this
[23:30:48] Jack Birkinshaw: me too
[23:31:12] Peter Hannappel: how is i going apart from this ?
[23:31:46] Peter Hannappel: Any news from Jkaen ?
[23:32:03] Jack Birkinshaw: nothing - will have to touch base soon. He's was first to 3 cities - I'm second
[23:32:18] Peter Hannappel: thats nice
[23:32:26] Peter Hannappel: not bad while building SH
[23:32:41] Jack Birkinshaw: yeah - my second city is really great
[23:33:16] Jack Birkinshaw: plus I now have 2 FP villages already, and another fast maturing cottage so tech speed is very good
[23:33:17] Peter Hannappel: I lost some time setting up my cities for whipping - but with granaries up, it should work out quite nice now
[23:33:45] Peter Hannappel: yeah, sound like a good tech speed
[23:33:59] Jack Birkinshaw: yeah and with copper all secure its great
[23:34:09] Peter Hannappel: so you are proably the #1 GNP for a while
[23:34:14] Jack Birkinshaw: i think you should perhaps bear in mind that JKaen could be going for TGL too
[23:34:22] Jack Birkinshaw: I believe he now has sailing
[23:34:28] Jack Birkinshaw: as we have a trade route
[23:34:40] Peter Hannappel: yeah - this could be possible
[23:34:54] Peter Hannappel: but I am confident I can beat him if he tries
[23:35:07] Jack Birkinshaw: yeah - any idea whether Ioan is going for it?
[23:35:50] Peter Hannappel: not GLH but otherwise, no idea
[23:36:14] Peter Hannappel: hes the only one except me with a coastal cap btw
[23:36:36] Jack Birkinshaw: interesting...
[23:36:45] Jack Birkinshaw: My second city with copper was coastal
[23:37:12] Peter Hannappel: but if you hear something from Jkaen about his plans, it would be nice if you let slip some info
[23:37:38] Jack Birkinshaw: if i can decipher anything from his musings i shall let you know
[23:37:44] Peter Hannappel: hehe
[23:38:09] Peter Hannappel: allright, see you then
[23:38:35] Peter Hannappel: and good luck
[23:38:47] Jack Birkinshaw: you too!

Allright, made some concessions here - was not sure they were necessary, since TT would a) have to win this race and b) would carsh his expansion
but c) they also do not hurt me too much.

I pay
- 50T of wheat as soon as trade connections are established
- 20T of sugar with a 5T notice
- Spread of Buddhism to 4 cities within 30 turns of receiving a missionary from TT

I get
- No Competition on GLH from TT
- Open borders and trade routes from him while my gifts last
- Buddhism, which will be very handy if I do not manage to found my own religion

That should be not too bad, with me having spare sugar & wheat and buddhism beeing nice for monastaries anyway.

Jkaen going for GLH might be a possibility though, I will have to keep an eye on him - but I will nevertheless have to beat him with my rather slow build approach, not willing to stunt my growth by omitting a settler. Perhaps I can manage to speed it up a turn or two by chopping an additional forest.

And I noticed TT can be pretty sneaky. Trying to get the wheat "for as long as I get my own source" while not even having one - thats really a good one I will surely remember.

[Piet]

Also chatted with T-I. Note my priceless mis-message starting at 21:33:15 .

[21:30:08] Peter Hannappel: Hi mark
[21:30:12] mark13512: Hi, sorry about that! Misunderstood
[21:30:19] Peter Hannappel: no problem
[21:30:24] mark13512: just playing the turn now
[21:30:49] Peter Hannappel: skype is simply a good tool because you can see at once when the other one is available
[21:31:07] Peter Hannappel: but my english is more theretic than practical
[21:31:18] mark13512: yes - i think a lot of people tend to use gmail chat for that
[21:31:19] Peter Hannappel: not good in understanding or speaking ^^
[21:31:22] mark13512: but skype works as well
[21:31:26] mark13512: haha, no problem
[21:31:35] mark13512: (you sounded ok from the brief conversation we had!)
[21:31:44] mark13512: (but I can understand that)
[21:31:53] Peter Hannappel: yeah, but i did only understand half of what you said
[21:31:58] Peter Hannappel: :D
[21:32:01] mark13512: haha, ok
[21:32:21] Peter Hannappel: so, how it is going for you ?
[21:32:38] Peter Hannappel: food count went up again I noticed
[21:32:42] mark13512: yeah, quite well thank you
[21:32:43] mark13512: haha, well
[21:32:50] Peter Hannappel: thats nice
[21:32:53] mark13512: all i'm doing id building workers and settlers right now
[21:32:55] mark13512: is*
[21:33:15] Peter Hannappel: thats the best thing you can do right now
[21:33:21] Peter Hannappel: and I prefer it to build an army
[21:33:35] Peter Hannappel: no
[21:33:37] Peter Hannappel: wait
[21:33:43] mark13512: haha
[21:33:51] Peter Hannappel: you know what i mean ^^
[21:33:57] mark13512: yes, haha
[21:34:04] mark13512: you'd prefer i built workers and settlers to me building an army
[21:34:14] Peter Hannappel: exactly
[21:34:19] Peter Hannappel: this was a nice one
[21:34:42] mark13512: wow, it's turn 41 already
[21:34:52] mark13512: so we should get a trade network established
[21:35:00] Peter Hannappel: yes, definitely
[21:35:17] Peter Hannappel: do you know if a connection will establish across the lake
[21:35:28] Peter Hannappel: thats in my culture
[21:35:30] mark13512: I don't think so
[21:35:34] mark13512: it might have to be roads
[21:35:44] Peter Hannappel: so we will have to build a road around it
[21:35:56] mark13512: perhaps unless one of us has sailing? but i don't think either of us do
[21:36:06] Peter Hannappel: this could be right
[21:36:41] Peter Hannappel: so we should build a road connection anyway
[21:36:55] mark13512: do you have the rice tile roaded at the moment?
[21:37:01] Peter Hannappel: not yet
[21:37:16] Peter Hannappel: but i had time to raod the tile 1S of it already
[21:37:21] mark13512: yeah, i saw that
[21:37:29] Peter Hannappel: a turn of spare time waiting for the border pop
[21:37:32] mark13512: so i'm roading the pigs tile shortly
[21:37:49] mark13512: and will then road the grassland tile 1E of the lake
[21:38:04] Peter Hannappel: allright, let me have a look on the map
[21:38:11] mark13512: cool
[21:38:29] mark13512: food went down this turn. just cracked the whip
[21:39:53] Peter Hannappel: allright, got the map
[21:39:58] mark13512: cool
[21:39:59] Peter Hannappel: ok
[21:40:08] Peter Hannappel: my worker will start on roading the rice T45
[21:41:00] Peter Hannappel: then road one of the three tiles between us T47/48
[21:41:06] mark13512: ok, that sounds good
[21:41:21] mark13512: i'm pasturing the pigs tile now, will finish next turn
[21:41:25] mark13512: so that means road 43-44
[21:41:32] mark13512: then road grassland 45-46
[21:41:46] mark13512: then road plains hill maybe 48-49?
[21:42:02] Peter Hannappel: so if you like we can choose a tile and connect a turn earlier
[21:42:17] mark13512: yup
[21:42:24] mark13512: probably the forested plains hill would be my preference
[21:42:30] Peter Hannappel: plains hill would be ok
[21:42:49] Peter Hannappel: yeah, it serves as connection between your cities at the same time
[21:42:54] mark13512: yup
[21:43:08] mark13512: it's funny
[21:43:13] mark13512: i think this is the first game i've ever had
[21:43:16] mark13512: where cities 2 and 3 have been connected before 1 and 2
[21:43:28] Peter Hannappel: hehe
[21:43:47] Peter Hannappel: I had a jungle pop in my capitals BFC turn 20 or so
[21:43:54] mark13512: ooh dear
[21:43:58] Peter Hannappel: screwed up my early worker plans completely
[21:44:07] mark13512: i don't have any jungle thankfully
[21:44:11] Peter Hannappel: but gave me time to set up an early road
[21:44:12] mark13512: a bit too far north for that!
[21:44:45] Peter Hannappel: was about to move on this tile to improve it the turn the jungle popped
[21:44:52] mark13512: oh dear
[21:44:59] mark13512: bad news, especially on quick speed
[21:45:12] Peter Hannappel: in the end it was not so bad as it seemed
[21:45:13] mark13512: do you have a third city coming soon?
[21:45:23] Peter Hannappel: settler is on its way
[21:45:29] mark13512: cool
[21:45:30] Peter Hannappel: in two turns I think
[21:45:37] mark13512: I've just met jkaen by the way
[21:45:45] Peter Hannappel: revolted to slavery early and used it to set up granaries
[21:45:55] Peter Hannappel: ah
[21:46:00] Peter Hannappel: thats interesting
[21:46:06] Peter Hannappel: still havent met him
[21:46:10] mark13512: he has a scout just SE of Ioan's capital
[21:46:22] mark13512: just in case you have anything in the vicinity
[21:46:30] Peter Hannappel: allright
[21:46:38] Peter Hannappel: my warrior is half back home
[21:46:42] mark13512: ok, cool
[21:46:57] Peter Hannappel: but if you like you can give him directions
[21:47:08] mark13512: yeah, i probably will do
[21:47:14] mark13512: it's a scout, so it shouldn't be a threat for you
[21:47:20] Peter Hannappel: hes probably looking for Impi targets anyway
[21:47:23] mark13512: haha
[21:47:31] mark13512: i think he's sufficiently far away that we're not a threat
[21:47:31] Peter Hannappel: but TT should be his nearest neighbour
[21:47:36] mark13512: not under threat, rather
[21:47:39] mark13512: yeah
[21:47:39] Peter Hannappel: good for us
[21:48:21] Peter Hannappel: after conversation with TT I think Jkaen is in the south of both of us
[21:48:31] Peter Hannappel: somewehere in the middle
[21:48:33] mark13512: that would make sense
[21:48:36] Peter Hannappel: but I am not sure
[21:48:39] mark13512: his scout is travelling north
[21:48:41] Peter Hannappel: the good thing is
[21:48:59] Peter Hannappel: I have a body of water right to my south
[21:49:12] mark13512: ok, that's good
[21:49:14] Peter Hannappel: so we have kind of a natural border there
[21:49:17] mark13512: yeah
[21:49:23] mark13512: i think the geography has generally favoured the builders rather than the warmonger
[21:49:43] mark13512: lots of natural choke points, plenty of distance between us etc.
[21:49:57] Peter Hannappel: thats right
[21:50:06] Peter Hannappel: but I am not sure
[21:50:36] Peter Hannappel: for example we could have easily had war early
[21:50:40] Peter Hannappel: and also you and Ioan
[21:50:51] Peter Hannappel: seem to be not so far away
[21:50:59] mark13512: you and I are a lot closer than me and Ioan I think
[21:51:06] mark13512: his capital is something like...
[21:51:24] mark13512: ...23 tiles from my capital
[21:51:26] mark13512: which is a long way
[21:51:44] Peter Hannappel: yeah, thats a long way
[21:51:55] Peter Hannappel: he has a really safe starting position
[21:52:03] Peter Hannappel: water betwen him and TT
[21:52:08] mark13512: yeah, on a little peninsula
[21:52:11] mark13512: where is TT?
[21:52:12] mark13512: is he directly south of Ioan?
[21:52:17] Peter Hannappel: but not much room for expansion
[21:52:17] mark13512: I still haven't met him...
[21:52:23] Peter Hannappel: yes
[21:52:28] mark13512: ok, cool
[21:52:32] mark13512: i'll meet him shortly then, I'm sure
[21:52:58] Peter Hannappel: simply follow the coast S of Ionas second city
[21:53:08] Peter Hannappel: Ionesti I think
[21:53:09] mark13512: ok
[21:53:14] mark13512: that's what I'm doing at the moment
[21:53:48] Peter Hannappel: coast will bend to the west and not far from this there should be TTs lands
[21:53:58] mark13512: ok, excellent
[21:54:02] Peter Hannappel: his captial is 22 or 23 tiles from mine
[21:54:10] mark13512: makes sense
[21:54:29] Peter Hannappel: so, how about our NAP ?
[21:54:41] mark13512: did we say until T60 before?
[21:54:47] Peter Hannappel: yes
[21:54:52] mark13512: ok, cool
[21:54:58] mark13512: we can extend that I think, if you want to?
[21:55:08] Peter Hannappel: I would like to
[21:55:18] mark13512: ok, cool
[21:55:27] Peter Hannappel: no sense to set up trade routes and move armies on them
[21:55:29] mark13512: T80? that should take us until just after 1AD from memory, on quick
[21:55:33] mark13512: haha, definitely not
[21:55:45] Peter Hannappel: T75 is 1AD
[21:55:56] mark13512: ok, cool
[21:55:59] Peter Hannappel: I would even like it a little bit longer
[21:56:02] Peter Hannappel: say T90
[21:56:17] mark13512: ok, T90 sounds good
[21:56:41] mark13512: I think it's not necessarily a good idea to make super-long term plans
[21:56:55] Peter Hannappel: sure thing
[21:56:57] mark13512: but I can't imagine a situation where I would regret signing a NAP until T90
[21:57:02] mark13512: so yes, that's fine
[21:57:39] Peter Hannappel: yes, I also have a good idea what I will be doing till T90 and warring wasnt part of these plans
[21:57:51] Peter Hannappel: hope the Zulu playes along
[21:58:04] mark13512: yep. crashing our economies and expanding as quickly as possible is the best way to ensure we are frontrunners I think
[21:58:15] mark13512: Byzantium still has only 2 cities
[21:58:21] mark13512: Zulu has 3
[21:58:34] mark13512: so it's safe to assume he's not invested in an army yet
[21:58:56] Peter Hannappel: yes, I think so
[21:59:06] Peter Hannappel: only two cities for Ioan yet ?
[21:59:09] Peter Hannappel: hm
[21:59:17] Peter Hannappel: his score increased by 11 recently
[21:59:30] Peter Hannappel: I saw this as three pop increases
[21:59:32] mark13512: hmmm
[21:59:35] mark13512: classical tech?
[21:59:46] Peter Hannappel: I will explain
[21:59:50] mark13512: could be writing
[22:00:01] Peter Hannappel: there were two score increases in this turn
[22:00:09] Peter Hannappel: Ioan by 11 and Jkaen by 4
[22:00:45] mark13512: T41 is too early for a second city culture increase
[22:00:55] mark13512: so it could be an ancient tech and a pop
[22:00:59] Peter Hannappel: rivals population increased by 22k
[22:01:06] Peter Hannappel: in that turn
[22:01:16] mark13512: ok, hang on
[22:01:20] Peter Hannappel: (the average going up 5.5 k)
[22:01:28] Peter Hannappel: the only way I get 22k
[22:01:40] Peter Hannappel: is 1k,1k,5k,15k
[22:02:00] Peter Hannappel: thats two new cities, one growth to 2, one to 3
[22:02:13] Peter Hannappel: there could be whipping been done ofc
[22:02:25] mark13512: hmmm
[22:02:44] Peter Hannappel: but if there is no whipping there wre two new cities and one of them had to be ioan
[22:03:01] mark13512: hang on
[22:03:03] Peter Hannappel: but - I will simply look into his diplo screen next turn :D
[22:03:03] mark13512: i think i have it
[22:03:21] mark13512: growth from size 3 to size 4 = 27,000
[22:03:24] mark13512: whip from size 2 to size 1 = -5,000
[22:03:37] mark13512: that's how you get 22,000 increase
[22:03:44] Peter Hannappel: yes
[22:03:56] Peter Hannappel: this could be the solution :D
[22:04:04] mark13512: I think it must be
[22:04:14] mark13512: it would be very quick to have 4 cities at this point
[22:04:25] mark13512: and it's only TT who could have it
[22:04:27] Peter Hannappel: one of the new cities would have been jkaens third one
[22:04:29] mark13512: and he went for Oracle
[22:04:30] mark13512: so it's very unlikely
[22:04:43] Peter Hannappel: so it could have been
[22:04:49] Peter Hannappel: but it would be very fast
[22:05:06] Peter Hannappel: your theory sounds more reasonable
[22:05:16] mark13512: but it would have needed two increases and two new cities?
[22:05:18] mark13512: so a total of four cities
[22:05:36] mark13512: and i know that Ioan has only 2 cities and Jkaen has 3
[22:05:36] Peter Hannappel: sure, 27k-5k sounds better
[22:05:50] mark13512: cool, I think that's sorted then
[22:05:56] Peter Hannappel: should have looked into the diplo screen simply ^^
[22:06:01] mark13512: haha
[22:06:08] Peter Hannappel: so it was a classical tech probably
[22:06:14] mark13512: I would imagine so, yes
[22:06:21] mark13512: or a pop increase and an ancient tech
[22:06:22] Peter Hannappel: couldnt have been land
[22:06:24] mark13512: nope
[22:07:06] Peter Hannappel: TT is a little bit back developmentwise I think
[22:07:19] Peter Hannappel: he was in an oracle race and switched to stonehenge
[22:07:30] Peter Hannappel: when he saw he would lose it
[22:07:31] mark13512: hmmm
[22:07:38] mark13512: he just can't resist wonders can he?
[22:07:46] Peter Hannappel: seems so
[22:07:48] mark13512: he has done this in his previous games as well
[22:07:53] Peter Hannappel: i know
[22:08:12] Peter Hannappel: TT is the one you can get much information about on these forums
[22:08:17] mark13512: haha, yes
[22:08:25] mark13512: Kyan has played quite a lot with him as well
[22:08:54] Peter Hannappel: seems to be a nice and peaceful guy but very wonder/religion-focussed
[22:09:08] Peter Hannappel: and thus usually not very good
[22:09:13] mark13512: yep, I think that's accurate
[22:09:19] mark13512: I think it was PBEM3
[22:09:31] mark13512: where everyone was very cross withi him for running a farmer's gambit
[22:09:44] mark13512: and then *still* not building any militray when he knew he was about to be attacked
[22:09:59] Peter Hannappel: yeah, sounds like him
[22:10:18] Peter Hannappel: altough the general impression about him is he has improved over these games
[22:10:30] mark13512: yes, I think so too
[22:10:32] Peter Hannappel: so I wouldnt rule him out completely
[22:10:36] mark13512: it depends to what extent though
[22:10:51] Peter Hannappel: still a guy who should be an easy neighbour
[22:11:13] Peter Hannappel: you others are king of a blank page for me
[22:11:29] Peter Hannappel: but I am glad this is both ways
[22:11:38] mark13512: yeah, definitely the same for me as well
[22:11:47] Peter Hannappel: and I think its an interesting game so far
[22:11:49] mark13512: for the record, I'm an Emp/Imm level SP player who's never played MP before
[22:11:53] Peter Hannappel: we are still close to each other
[22:12:06] Peter Hannappel: sounds like me
[22:12:10] mark13512: cool
[22:12:13] mark13512: I think we've done OK so fra
[22:12:17] Peter Hannappel: but I am more Emp than Imm
[22:12:30] Peter Hannappel: not focussing enough when playing SP
[22:12:39] mark13512: Ioan's fast Oracle was an interesting play
[22:12:57] mark13512: it makes sense for him, as an industrious player
[22:12:58] Peter Hannappel: I thought he would take MC
[22:13:10] mark13512: did he not?
[22:13:12] Peter Hannappel: but perhaps beeing in a race with TT
[22:13:24] Peter Hannappel: he took Monarchy
[22:13:27] mark13512: took Monarchy instead?
[22:13:28] mark13512: ahhh
[22:13:28] mark13512: ok
[22:13:34] mark13512: I should have checked that
[22:13:34] Peter Hannappel: I suppose he didnt have time
[22:13:38] mark13512: yep, I think the same
[22:13:42] Peter Hannappel: to research BW and pottery
[22:14:14] Peter Hannappel: a good start for him anyway
[22:14:22] mark13512: ah yes, he's in HR
[22:14:24] mark13512: I see now
[22:14:35] mark13512: yeah, I'm not sure about that play at all in that case
[22:14:40] mark13512: unless he has no happiness resources
[22:14:42] mark13512: which is possible
[22:14:57] Peter Hannappel: we should all have at least a few
[22:15:06] Peter Hannappel: wasnt ther gold between you and him ?
[22:15:12] mark13512: yeah, there is
[22:15:19] mark13512: he must have something else too
[22:15:36] Peter Hannappel: I got some calendar resources
[22:15:43] Peter Hannappel: besides the gold
[22:15:50] Peter Hannappel: nothing else
[22:15:51] mark13512: I have very little - a silk I think
[22:15:55] mark13512: or spices
[22:15:57] mark13512: one or the other
[22:15:59] mark13512: plus gold
[22:16:06] mark13512: by the way
[22:16:12] mark13512: do you have a spare rice by any chance?
[22:16:18] Peter Hannappel: maybe we can arrange for a trade at some time
[22:16:26] Peter Hannappel: i will have
[22:16:30] mark13512: ok, that's cool
[22:16:35] mark13512: we should definitely do a trade then
[22:16:39] mark13512: because rice would be awesome
[22:16:40] Peter Hannappel: and I will have a sugar in the long run
[22:16:47] mark13512: cool
[22:16:51] mark13512: I'll see what else I have
[22:16:57] mark13512: it might not be very much to be honest
[22:16:58] mark13512: although
[22:17:10] mark13512: I think I might have a silver if Ioan doesn't get there first
[22:17:45] Peter Hannappel: good luck then
[22:17:50] mark13512: hehe
[22:17:57] mark13512: ah well, I have to go now
[22:18:02] mark13512: good chatting with you though
[22:18:14] Peter Hannappel: yeah, was nice
[22:18:21] Peter Hannappel: see you
[22:18:27] mark13512: I'll come on whenever I have a free evening
[22:18:36] mark13512: (which isn't every evening unfortunately)
[22:18:43] mark13512: see you later!

We have a NAP until T90, which is very comfortable. Also will set up a trade routes between T45 and T50. Will trade rice and my third sugar to him eventually, I suppose. Sugar for silver would be nice, if he manages to beat Ioan to the site.

Ah - and he has no sailing, so no competition there.

[Piet]

T42 done.

Domestic news :

Writing in, started Mathematics

Settler arriving on the spot for C3 - perhaps, since my workboat found a fish in the North and now it seems that I may have to fit 4 cities on this coast :



that would be
one E of the copper
one N of X
and two fillers at (X) and 2N of the spices

this would also use every grassland tile, but looks quite crowded. Also C3 would lose freshwater access.

C3 will be founded the next turn nevertheless and I fortunately did not lose a turn by moving the settler first.

Foreign news :

TT had a big turn here : land points, probably a tech, and founded his third city.

Demos :

[spacemanmf]

that would be
one E of the copper
one N of X
and two fillers at (X) and 2N of the spices

this would also use every grassland tile, but looks quite crowded. Also C3 would lose freshwater access.

C3 will be founded the next turn nevertheless and I fortunately did not lose a turn by moving the settler first.

Could also leave C3 and found 2N of X and 1S of X.

[Piet]

Yeah, thats difficult.

Think the Northern city at the landtip is right anyway - it can share the gold with Morpork so M could be whipping and regrowing even sooner (all its really good for long term, besides the gold and being there as a border city). Will be a filler anyway - and I think its position is good there.

1S of the X is a really nice production site, unfortunately without freshwater. Or it could be a nice GP farm / Globe City. since the northern city wont need the bananas.
2S of the X would get it the freshwater access, but taking away much of the GP farm / Globe potential.

Reason for planting C3 south would be the fish, even if it probably will not be there forever. It would churn out my first GS very fast.
In the northern position, it would be "the" production potential city on this coast, along with freshwater to support this.

The (X) looks like my Moai site in each case. Will leave the forests for this and use chops and the copper to get it up.

So it would be, from N to S :

- Filler / Commerce
- GP Farm/Globe City
- Production site with commerce potential
- Moai city

or

- Filler / Commerce
- Production Site
- GP Farm / Commerce
- Moai City

Good thing I have still a night to sleep about this .

[Piet]

T43 in :

Pseudopolis founded in the northern position (1 NE of the copper), set to library, will be whipped at 4Pop (in around8 Turns or so). Worker has started improving Pseudopolis - rice first then copper. Workboat is on its route. Pseud. has trade routes up already due to sailing.

Not much happened else. 10 pts for Ioan (tech & pop), 13 for Jkaen (maybe classical tech, or tech & 2 pop) wre the biggest jump. We managed 5 due to founding Pseudopolis.

Demos are average, 3rd in GNP, 3rd in Food, 2nd in Producion. Above opponents average in each at least.

Map :



Demos :

[Piet]

Simmed GLH a few times. Currently it looks like T54, with a settler build and whip after the Lighthouse.

[Piet]

T44 in - another uneventful turn.

Ankh grew to 5, will grow again and finish Lighthouse next turn. Will go settler (3-pop-whip at T46) > GLH after that.

Morpork is 1 Turn from finishing its worker. After that it will grow to 5 while building a warrior, then settler (2-pop-whip) > worker at Size 3.

My workboat found another body of land on its way to Pseudopolis. Could be an Island, or reachable by T-I via land. Will have to check this out eventually.

Had a large score increase by land points (capitals 3rd border pop). Should have been what Jkaen got last turn.

Map :



Ofc., the land tip visble could also be part of Ioans territory. In this case, I should send a second WB there ASAP, to try and sail into the channel between Ioan and TT, getting trade routes and perhaps claiming circumnav.

Demos :



And two cities in the top five :

[Piet]

T45 in

Worker done in Morpork, switched gold to just finished Wheat farm to grow next turn (but killing my BSP for this one ). Morpork builds a MP warrior while growing.

Math due in 5, with a 0%-round next turn.

"Forward warrior" waits for Jkaens scout to show up. Southern warrior explores the coast opposite of my land. Workboat did a turn around the jungle isle, is unfortunaly needed in Pseud in 2 turns, as the city will grow T47.

Jkaen again had a big score increase, so one of them has to be a classical tech (or a LOT of pop).

The core :



Scouting progress :



Demos :



While not working the gold, I am falling quite back in GNP. But I reached T-Is food output this turn.

Got Ioans Graphs this turn btw. Hes #1 in production, bad in food and around me (with gold) in GNP, so not so good beakers there with all his culture.

[Piet]

@ Spaceman,

I will once again need a replacement player for some time, since I will be away a few days next week (Tue/Wed to Fri/Sat probably). Can you jump in once more ?