[SPOILERS] Ceiliazul and Timski go To War: Brennus of Spain

[Ceiliazul]

Ginger Eagle

His tech rate is very good, thanks to financial. Otherwise, he's not doing so hot. He's still not in slavery, and chose to road through a hill to his 2nd city. The settler is in an excellent location, however. He appears to have a fantastic sheltered city spot, right on his Southern mountain boundary.

I see insufficient work force, making long-term choices when short term ones are needed. However, he does seem to have a nice border fortress there, with sheltered copper and a hillside choke. I see him holding out well on this front, but his economy is going to falter without better worker management.

Nicolae is not posting in the Greek thread enough to provide real impact, I see GE fading from the lead as time goes on.

[timski]

Sounds like a Krill game: Open with Stonehenge, and don't engage in serious warfare until close to the end...

Point well made on whip inefficiency at higher population sizes.

On Libraries: I completely agree with the Palace move to Duck Hunt, I just didn't anticipate that until later. In the meantime Mario Bros has the Palace and Silver, so a Library yields 2-3 extra Beakers/turn before before Specialists, even with a fair bit of whipping. I tend to treat Libraries like Granaries - to be built just about everywhere, the sooner the better - I guess I'm not specialising the cities enough?

Planning to have some fun with GingerEagle too?

I presume GingerEagle are terrified of Imperial Dazed, and want to secure the choke at all costs. Logical, in a way, since they had no contact with us until a few turns ago. The site is able to work Crystal Palace's Deer and farm (judging by the road connection from the Deer, their farm is WSW of Crystal Palace), but that's not much of a boon if Crystal Palace is planning to use the whip. The, erm, trade-off is minimal Cottage potential. One wonders if GingerEagle's third city will be on our border, ignoring both the Flood Plains and coast even longer? Not much chance of us getting to Iron Working by then, sadly.

GingerEagle's lack of Slavery this turn is weird. It was the obvious turn to change, with the Settler moving. With just one Settler and a Worker, and the biggest city in the world, their lack of Slavery is really hurting. Unless a second Worker is lost for 8 turns connecting some rare metals...

I was hoping the names might fit a specific pattern, but thus far they just seem to be football players who had a connection to Crystal Palace in the 1970s and 80s.

Added: The timing doesn't seem right for the Settler. Warrior on T17, at which point they stopped growing. Settler looks like it just appeared. In the intervening period they had 4 population all working food. Surely they must have another Worker in the fog?

And another detail: GingerEagle has significantly more trees closer to their capital than we do (did). I see 14 in the screenshot. Most of our trees are in the far east, too far to settle early.

[Ceiliazul]

GingerEagle... yeah.

Sounds like a Krill game: Open with Stonehenge, and don't engage in serious warfare until close to the end...

I think that's a compliment!

Meanwhile, I decided to straight build Stonehenge, prepping a nice 2pop whip for granary ASAP. An excellent suggestion Timski. Duck Hunt will do the original scout/axe whip thing, because we just met Dazed (see below)

The captured workers are running headlong toward the the cows, for now. Goomba is healing in neutral land.

GingerEagle's lack of Slavery this turn is weird. It was the obvious turn to change, with the Settler moving. With just one Settler and a Worker, and the biggest city in the world, their lack of Slavery is really hurting. Unless a second Worker is lost for 8 turns connecting some rare metals...

I do think they have another worker in the fog. However, t27 showed that logic may not apply here.

Even masses of trees won't save him if he keeps playing like this!



I realize demo info is lagging. This is shaping up to be a 3 turn day, and I've got stuff going IRL. I'll do a massive catch up soon. Everyone has a 2nd city by now (except Commodore) and Stonehenge has not fallen!

[Ceiliazul]

Two granaries by t31, settler by t36

New dot ideas: red dots first

New North Coast dot (Double Dragon) is made stronger, with 2 cows while we wait for pig

t27
MAR Henge (auto ham)
DUC starts axe
w2 road s of DUC
w1 chops ne of DUC

t28
MAR Henge (fish, deer, lake) (to finish Pottery)
DUC fin scout
w4,5 move to cow
w3 preroad south of cow

t29 - Animal Husbandry
MAR fin Henge (auto hammer)
DUC start Gran
w2 fin road s of Duck
w4,5 road cow
w3 chop s of Duck (this must last)

t30
MAR start gran (auto)
DUC fin granary (2 chops arrive)
w1 fin chop NE of duck
w2,3 precot FP
w4,5 fin chop S of Duck


t31
MAR 2whip granary (regrow size 3 at EOT)
DUC continue axe (cottage)
w1,5 cot
w4 run to north-north of MAR (E of rice)
w2,3 farm rice

t32
MAR axe (max food)
DUC axe (rice)
w2,3 fin farm
w1,5 road rice
w4 road 2-North of MAR (E of rice)

t33
MAR axe (grow to size4 EOT)
DUC axe
w1,2,3 cot south-west of DUC (can be shared by both cities)
w4 fin road E of rice
w5 farm rice near MAR

t34 - Sailing
MAR settler (auto)
DUC axe (max food)
w1,2,3 past cow
w4,5 farm rice

t25
MAR settler (auto)
DUC axe (rice, FP, copper)
w1 move forest ENE of Duc
w2 move forest EE of Duc
w3 move to Duck rice
w4 move to Duck rice
w5 fin rice farm

Continuing:
MAR will whip it's settler on t36, going to North coast
Capital finish axe while regrowing, then worker
DUC whips axe (from 23/26) overflow to settler
Axe moves to cover settler, then North choke
w3,4,5 conspire to finish pasture, then chop forest for clam boat
w1,2 chop to finish settler (t38) then improve c4

Note sailing tech: I think we have freedom to get GLH if we want it. I think we want it. Yes, even libraries can wait.

[Ceiliazul]

Clear Skies

With a micro plan in place, and occupied opponents on both sides, it's a great day to be Spanish. If Stonehenge doesn't fall in the interturn, then it's mine. These new workers will allow us to get effective coastal cities on each side of the spit within ~12 turns!



Ginger Eagle has royally messed up. There's no silver lining, no saving grace... that city sucks. There's not even any seafood (one reason I thought he might be tempted to move E. Sometimes things are so bad they're good. (Rocky Horror, for example.) Bad play by neighboring civs can often be a good thing! GE's city is not one of these things. It's so bad it's actually a liability for me because Dazed is going to wait for it to grow and capture it!

I want GE to hold that city against Dazed. I want him to bend his whole empire to putting defense in that indefensible beachhead. He'll have to, or it'll burn. I politely moved away to give him the freedom to attack Dazed' warrior. Edit: I think GE should triple-team the Arabian warrior NOW (using the city defender last) and then immedately improve copper.

One thing's not his fault, that copper location is awkward.



Demo update:

coming soon... I promise!

[timski]

I think that's a compliment!

It is! I rate Krill very highly, even if their Stonehenge has become a bit of a running joke.

I realize demo info is lagging.

The last 48 hours has been manic: I spent half of Sunday pondering this game, and still can't keep up... Demo analysis is a low priority with so much else happening. The easiest option is to just post up top 5 city and demo screens, and we (I) can review them when time allows.

GingerEagle...yeah

Selhurst Park - Crystal Palace's ground, near Selhurst, a London surburb rather dominated by its railway junction... That city definitely calls for a Sulla-esk : GingerEagle gains a port, albeit with no seafood. And Beaver.

On this map the Beaver is a trap! Geddit?

I had to look twice, but Selhurst Park is built on Rice. On the Rice.

Sure, that can be an interesting move with something like Banana, since the city gets extra food now, rather than later. But we know GingerEagle has Agriculture, so could immediately both work and farm that Rice, with irrigation later. Even if they wanted the choke, port, Beaver, Cow, Copper and didn't care about hill defense, then 1N of the current spot would have given them a double-food location.

GingerEagle's thread was busy around midnight GMT, and in retrospect I can see why. They're choked by both Dazed and ourselves, and at the last count only had 2 Warriors (third by now). Dazed must be as bemused as us, since GingerEagle hasn't just moved their choke city off the hill, but left the hill open for Dazed to occupy. I assumed Dazed intended to scout round to our lands (roughly 10 turns from our border, so certainly worth having an Axe planned to greet it). But just now the most interesting thing Dazed can do is fortify on the hill... If they can bring up some more military from the south (big if, given the suspected combat with Kyan), they won't just trash GingerEagle's micro, but could take a shot at razing Selhurst Park.

One thing is sure: GingerEagle is going to have a lot of fun getting their Copper online. The one serious threat they pose early - Phalanx - are one hold until they do.

I asked earlier if you were planning to have fun with GingerEagle for a reason. I think you've got the metagame spot on: Letting Dazed take the greater part of GingerEagle's frustration, while still subtly limiting GingerEagle's moves.

Expansion

Will post more thoughts later, after I get a chance to sim again. For now:

1. Moving Contra 1S only makes sense if we are planning to hit Commodore early. Otherwise, we won't stop Commodore gaining control of the Flood Plains, but Contra will lose its second Cow and defensive hill.

2. 3 cities along the northern coast will be good if there is seafood fogged in the north east and we can get the Settlers pumped out fast enough. Without extra seafood, I see no purpose to settling the C2 (far NE site), instead moving it 2W if B1 (far west GingerEagle choke) is settled. So I'd like to get that NE coast scouted before committing to the red "Double Dragon" (which incidently breaks my naming caveat on double resources, but no matter). Double Dragon also commits us to getting the (B1) GingerEagle choke before GingerEagle settles. That seems very risky, even with GingerEagle in disarray. If we settle Double Dragon, and GingerEagle settles their choke hill, there's no space for us to settle any further west.

3. Somewhat early Sailing is a strong play regardless: A Lighthouse in Mario Bros is an instant 2 Worker-less farms (inland water) plus extra food from the Fish. Cities #3 and #4 will be coastal, while Galleys may yet be needed to settle the best unseen land.

3a. The Great Lighthouse itself is interesting: Always war appears to limit us to trading with ourselves. So we need 4 cities before the before even seeing the full trade route bonus. We won't get the traditional benefits of trading with the most developed cities of other players, and there's obviously no bonus to our best (inland) commerce city. However, with every city after the second likely coastal, the internal trade bonus could be significant later, even if it only amounts to +2 Gold/city/turn initially. Overall, I'm not yet convinced of the GLH as a very early or "must have" Wonder. Convince me!

4. Unsure about your south-east road plans - they don't seem to fit any ideal road layout: Surely either we want a diagonal 1W (starting 1S of the Copper), for efficient movement into Commodore's lands from our military production site at Mario, or we want a diagonal that services Contra directly? There's no urgency to roading any of the health resources, certainly not after the Rice, which alone would take our health cap above our pre-Iron happy cap. I assume you are roading primarily to subsequently get Workers onto the Cow a turn quicker, expending a turn to gain a turn?


Added on C&D: Gut feeling is that Kyan's 108-114-120 means that Dazed got city #2 and a 4th Warrior on T25. Possibly Dazed also killed Kyan's second Warrior T26, so may have slack to deal with GingerEagle now. Almost any demo screen you can post, would confirm that, but I thought I'd post now just in case Daze's "extra" Warrior might become important.

Oh, and I may have sparked the idea, but 'Henge completion on growth govenor hammer allocation, while simultaneously teching Pottery a turn earlier, definitely deserves a .

[Ceiliazul]

On this map the Beaver is a trap! Geddit?

Who among us hasn't been led astray by a beaver once or twice?

I had to look twice, but Selhurst Park is built on Rice.

It's... yeah. If I'm Nicolae, I just threw my hands up in disgust. My pre-teen son knows better than that! (More on him later). I moved away so they could focus on the true threat... Dazed! remember I want them to hold that city.

1. Moving Contra 1S only makes sense if we are planning to hit Commodore early. Otherwise, we won't stop Commodore gaining control of the Flood Plains, but Contra will lose its second Cow and defensive hill

My son (who knows everything) says we should get 3 axes out ASAP, even ahead of granaries, and kill that Commodore city. That seems extreme, but perhaps if we meet in he midde? In this case, perhaps 3 more axes instead of the settler from Duck Hunt? We can be in Japan land on t40 with 3-4 axes. My warrior can choke the copper as long as possible, and roads can speed the attack.

As for dotmapping, this is why we pushed that scout hard. By the time settlers are in the oven, we'll have a MUCH better picture of that coast. Oh, and don't forget horses...

So I'd like to get that NE coast scouted before committing to the red "Double Dragon" (which incidently breaks my naming caveat on double resources, but no matter). Double Dragon also commits us to getting the (B1) GingerEagle choke before GingerEagle settles.

Yes, it's a risk. Given GE's bad play so far, we don't likely need to take that risk. However, the new red dot is a much stronger city in its own right. In fact, it might even be the heroic epic city we've been looking for!

3. Somewhat early Sailing is a strong play regardless: A Lighthouse in Mario Bros is an instant 2 Worker-less farms (inland water) plus extra food from the Fish. Cities #3 and #4 will be coastal, while Galleys may yet be needed to settle the best unseen land.

I hadn't even realized the boon of the lakes... I'm loving it!

Overall, I'm not yet convinced of the GLH as a very early or "must have" Wonder. Convince me !

GLH basically eliminates the expansion cap on coastal cities. We're on a flat/prince map... the best REX will win this game. Normally, each new city costs ~4-6 gpt and you limit yourself to 2-3 new cities at a time. With GLH, and hopefully some islands, each city is breakeven at worst, and possibly an immediate gain.

Always war reduces the value of those extra routes (at least til islands can be settled) but it also reduces the growth curve of everyone globally. Even though the absolute advantage is smaller compared to diplo games, the advantage over our opponents is still gigantic. And unlike diplo games, no embargoes can reduce that realative advantage.

If you read my 25g thread, I pegged the Oracle as the most important wonder because research was the limiting factor. Here, GLH is most important because settling speed is the limiting factor. No other wonder supercharges watery REXing like GLH.

Bonus, GLH in the capital is unboatable!

Withold judgement til you see the post-stonehenge centered map. There's a lot of water out there, and shadow analysis shows likely many islands.

4. Unsure about your south-east road plans - they don't seem to fit any ideal road layout

Yes, the cow road was more or less to speed the arrival of captured workers.

Oh, and I may have sparked the idea, but 'Henge completion on growth govenor hammer allocation, while simultaneously teching Pottery a turn earlier, definitely deserves a .

Couldn't have done it without you, mate!

[timski]

My son (who knows everything) says we should get 3 axes out ASAP, even ahead of granaries, and kill that Commodore city.

That was my initial reaction. I disagree with delaying Granaries, because lack of Granaries severely gimps our options if the battle takes more than 3 Axes to win. Commodore may have made a poor move onto that hill, but as you say, they are not Cull: They will fight to the last. Very likely they're already teching Archery, precisely for such an eventuality. If they see our power spike, they'll abandon Workers/Settlers in favour of Archers. A couple of Archers in a hill city will bounce 3 Axes. Further, it is doubtful that we can pump enough Axes out of our 1.5 cities (Duck Hunt isn't much of a pump) faster than Commodore can line up Archers in Bear. Barracks might change the balance, but delay us further.

That calculation is the first reason for me accepting your proposal to use our advantage to build an economy. We might win against Commodore, but we might get bogged down in 10 or 20 turns of a campaign neither side can outright win. Since Commodore is currently in fifth place in the "chance to win the game" rankings, I don't see them going anywhere anytime soon.

The second reason was C&D: I'm increasingly convinced that while Kyan is planning to rush someone, they currently lack "boots on the ground" - they're in no better shape than Commodore, except for military techs. It will take Kyan time to build up. I don't except Commodore to get rushed by Kyan in the next 10 turns, which would otherwise be the consequence of us not capturing Commodore's capital. We might even have done Commodore a favour by pushing them onto a defensive military path earlier. Best outcome is that Kyan tries a rush, which Commodore's Archers repel. Commodore's economy continues to go nowhere, while Kyan gains nothing.

Added: To summarise that - wait and see. If an option for an Axe or Sword rush presents itself later, we'll have the economic advantage to exploit that, without risking it all right now. In the meantime a little border harassment doesn't hurt**.

(**Unless one moves 2 Workers and a Settler there.)

Both red sites are superior economically, but tactically weaker than our earlier plan. That's the expansion argument in one sentence. Specifically, I'm nervous that we're stacking risk on risk. We're in a strong position now, and can afford to take some risks, but luck will inevitably turn against us at some point.

That said, we can leave some of these decisions for a while, and see how the board plays out. If GingerEagle gets locked into a battle over nothing worth having in west, and Commodore is slow to a Settler, then I'll grow more relaxed about the red sites.

Your Great Lighthouse reasoning is excellent. I was looking solely at "+2 Gold/turn isn't much", completely overlooking the fact that this immediately offsets much of the additional costs of a city, the moment that new city is founded. Inability to "boat" Mario will ultimately make it one of the safest Wonders in the game. Objection withdrawn.

[Ceiliazul]

they are not Cull: They will fight to the last.

Agreed, he won't go quietly. But there's no way he lives to see samurai on the field.

We might even have done Commodore a favour

We're just so darn helpful!

In the meantime a little border harassment doesn't hurt**.
(**Unless one moves 2 Workers and a Settler there.)

Seems unlikely. But it seemed unlikely the first time too...

Both red sites are superior economically, but tactically weaker than our earlier plan. That's the expansion argument in one sentence. Specifically, I'm nervous that we're stacking risk on risk. We're in a strong position now, and can afford to take some risks, but luck will inevitably turn against us at some point.

That's the crux of it. We have a military advantage over both opponents at this time. (Comm crippled, GE occupied) We can use that advantage to harass them further, or we can use it to get basically 20 turns of always peace in an always war game! Rest assured, we'll stay alert, but this will likely be the only chance for total peace in this game.

If we use this time for economic POP, we can definitely get a military advantage again later.

That said, we can leave some of these decisions for a while, and see how the board plays out. If GingerEagle gets locked into a battle over nothing worth having in west, and Commodore is slow to a Settler, then I'll grow more relaxed about the red sites.

Scout on the ground will help tremendously with this. I'm not sold on any city sites until we see our NE coastline.

[quote=timski]Your Great Lighthouse reasoning is excellent.

Make it so, number one! (apologies to Xenu :neenernee)

[Ceiliazul]

The Henge has Landed





In other good news, GingerEagle appears poised to kick Dazed off that hill. He was also nice enough to tech AH in perfect time for us to benefit. :-)



Demo update:

Note, shots taken before EOT (no 'henge culture gnp)