[PB79] MirOh No, what am I doing?

[klops]

gratz for the quick conquest and thanks for the animation.
I read many civ reports but that's something new to me

[Mjmd]

Logged in as I won't be around for next few days and its been a while!!!

1) Don't queue up your techs. It hasn't happened since, but in my 2nd game one of the other players got pretty screwed by doing this because something went wrong. I didn't look too close, but are you going theocracy or construction first? I kind of like Theocracy fire. Do you have an AP site planned? (overflow chops ect)
2) Get a scouting unit in both Coldrain and Xist territory!!! Your protective so while you gain something from trade routes the main reason to have open borders is the scouting!. I realize you have city visibility of Coldrain to some extent even not spending a lot of EPs, but still. A scout zipping along the border would be nice for ease of mind especially down techs.
3) don't like the watermills at Code names. Watermills aren't great at this stage in my opinion. As a dedicated commerce city, all the cottages. Don't whip that city again if you can help it. Its past time to slow grow onto cottages even if they are plains ones. Hues and Cues can help grow cottages some for it. Also, as noted earlier I would have all the cottages at Blood and Cloak. I do like windmills sooner than watermills, but you have more than enough for workers to do not a priority. But ya more cottages. Maybe find someplace to build 1 more worker.
4) you have a significant chunk of cho ko nus defending backline cities. They do no good there until you are already dead. They don't need to be RIGHT at the front; you don't need to scare people. But should be at most 2 turns back. And put a couple in the island cities (or longbows). They will also serve as your collateral for a while this game, so like them being with your stack.
5) Cumea building a library is awkward. He did settle that border city, but I do kind of want that wheat. That can be a monster commerce city. Awkward that its on a border, but still. He should keep the first ring copper.
6) Prioritize food still. Along with what tiles will cities actually work. Romes banana still isn't improved.
7) Forges after grans (being org you can also do courthouses before forges). I was looking for AP sites and Neopolis has 4 forest, but its building a library over a forge (although it might be too low on pop anyways). Also, its grassland wines should be improved to help its food situation. But ya I'm sure there were more cities doing libraries before forges, but its just more efficient to do forges earlier.
8) too late now, but I think I like mechs and minions where Rickety had it. Extra grassland and its safer. It can help grow Rome cottages though where you have.
9) I did label 3 mix use cities. They don't get things like banks or universities. But once you are in org religion they are ok to get pro markets and libraries. Its awkward because one of them is your HE city (excellent thing to to have built), but between the dyes and all the windmills it will probably have eventually its tempting. Feel free to just keep that one pure prod as its the one I'm most unsure about (although maybe you build some buildings WAY in the future before you hit rifles when building obsolete units aren't a big deal).
10) are you going to pop GA soon? I can see waiting just a smidge, but I can also see launching to catch up. Always the push pull with GAs wait for more pop or launch for more immediate benefit.

and I forgot to take a picture for lurkers / myself because I like zoomed out ones.

[Miro]

Logged in as I won't be around for next few days and its been a while!!!

1) Don't queue up your techs. It hasn't happened since, but in my 2nd game one of the other players got pretty screwed by doing this because something went wrong. I didn't look too close, but are you going theocracy or construction first? I kind of like Theocracy fire. Do you have an AP site planned? (overflow chops ect)
2) Get a scouting unit in both Coldrain and Xist territory!!! Your protective so while you gain something from trade routes the main reason to have open borders is the scouting!. I realize you have city visibility of Coldrain to some extent even not spending a lot of EPs, but still. A scout zipping along the border would be nice for ease of mind especially down techs.
3) don't like the watermills at Code names. Watermills aren't great at this stage in my opinion. As a dedicated commerce city, all the cottages. Don't whip that city again if you can help it. Its past time to slow grow onto cottages even if they are plains ones. Hues and Cues can help grow cottages some for it. Also, as noted earlier I would have all the cottages at Blood and Cloak. I do like windmills sooner than watermills, but you have more than enough for workers to do not a priority. But ya more cottages. Maybe find someplace to build 1 more worker.
4) you have a significant chunk of cho ko nus defending backline cities. They do no good there until you are already dead. They don't need to be RIGHT at the front; you don't need to scare people. But should be at most 2 turns back. And put a couple in the island cities (or longbows). They will also serve as your collateral for a while this game, so like them being with your stack.
5) Cumea building a library is awkward. He did settle that border city, but I do kind of want that wheat. That can be a monster commerce city. Awkward that its on a border, but still. He should keep the first ring copper.
6) Prioritize food still. Along with what tiles will cities actually work. Romes banana still isn't improved.
7) Forges after grans (being org you can also do courthouses before forges). I was looking for AP sites and Neopolis has 4 forest, but its building a library over a forge (although it might be too low on pop anyways). Also, its grassland wines should be improved to help its food situation. But ya I'm sure there were more cities doing libraries before forges, but its just more efficient to do forges earlier.
8) too late now, but I think I like mechs and minions where Rickety had it. Extra grassland and its safer. It can help grow Rome cottages though where you have.
9) I did label 3 mix use cities. They don't get things like banks or universities. But once you are in org religion they are ok to get pro markets and libraries. Its awkward because one of them is your HE city (excellent thing to to have built), but between the dyes and all the windmills it will probably have eventually its tempting. Feel free to just keep that one pure prod as its the one I'm most unsure about (although maybe you build some buildings WAY in the future before you hit rifles when building obsolete units aren't a big deal).
10) are you going to pop GA soon? I can see waiting just a smidge, but I can also see launching to catch up. Always the push pull with GAs wait for more pop or launch for more immediate benefit.

and I forgot to take a picture for lurkers / myself because I like zoomed out ones.

No worries, next turn is T150 and I have most of a writeup ready for that update. I'll take pictures.

1) I'm going Theocracy (T151?), then Con + Engineering.
2) I have scouts in both! The Chariot in coldrain's land is in the middle, spotted 2 stationary stacks, now headed to my NE border to check armies around there. xist Chariot scout is checking for his border with coldrain (if they have one), may add another scout at our border.
3) I rarely make any mills, I don't even remember what watermills are like after upgrades. Trying them all out and I like the city specialization idea helping me consider windmills, but I can chill on the watermills.
4) Yeah I mainly wanted the coastal scouts to see my units. I like putting them where you said to put them, just want coldrain to be at ease while knowing he shouldn't attack me and don't want Gira getting any ideas.
5) "Cumae building a library is awkward." "That can be a monster commerce city." Don't we want Libraries on commerce cities very fast for +25% tech? or are Markets more popular first? If it's about contesting the resources, I think they're meant for me. When I offered city for city, xist countered with city for city and gave me 1 Copper + 1 Wheat for 1g. Then he settled that border city. I took that to mean, "Hey you can have those 2 resource tiles, no tension between us, let's gang up on coldrain." because of the trade offers that followed.
6) Yeah, I saw. I be upgrading them Roman tiles. I should've prepped more Workers for it earlier.
7) Fair. I know getting Forge's +25% ASAP is good, the Libraries are autopilot and bc I want to catch up in tech really soon. coldrain has 6300+ tech lead over me (if we don't count Literature path).
8) I was debating between the 2 city spots for a while! I don't remember why I decided this spot, but it seems alright.
9) Ok cool, I'll check 'em out.
10) I plan to GA in 2 - 3 turns. Once I spread Christianity with first Missionary, I want to GA and spread Missionaries from those 2 cities.

I returned xist's war vs coldrain offer and included the convert to Buddhism part he put because I didn't want to argue minutia and wanted him to understand, "Yes, accepted, we're allies, coldrain is the enemy." I hope when I go Christian he won't think of it as distrustworthy for not going Buddhist when I said I would. But maybe he shouldn't trust me 

After I read your #5 about xist taking it easy during a Miro vs coldrain war, I thought for a while about what everyone's goals for the next war look like. I've got some plans... This is fun! Trying to make war plans while considering that other players might be backstabbing or communicating with each other is a new layer of civ4 I've never seen.

It sounds like you like to keep OrgReligion after GA? I was thinking of switching to Theocracy at the end. But I'll have 2 more GPs, so I guess I can enter a 2nd GA for Theocracy switch not too long after 1st GA ends.

[Miro]

gratz for the quick conquest and thanks for the animation.
I read many civ reports but that's something new to me

Thanks, dude! 

[Mjmd]

2) Sorry I must have just missed.
3) I mainly like windmills at cities that would stop growing otherwise. But ya focus on cottaging for now.
4) I don't think anyone is that threatened by Cho Ko Nus attacking when they have knights, but feel free to put back from the border a couple turns, but that is still 4-5 turns closer to the front than they are now. I would send some # toward xist and islands (although islands could also be garrisoned by new longbows).
5) We do want a library there. I wasn't aware of the follow up diplo so that is good.
7) The way to catch up in tech is just to play a solid game. And you don't want to just catch up, but you want to be surpassing people eventually. Its why I put cottage comments in multiple posts. Your empire is pretty light on cottages for this far into the game.

11) I'm fine with giving Xist a long term NAP (and I would send Coldrain at least a medium term one), but I probably wouldn't go to war until tanks if I had a choice in your position. I would just work on empire building and let my rivals weaken each other. You have the land you need. I really hate the idea of trying to slog through Coldrain land on tech parity. Making progress against players with collateral is always harder than you think. I've only let myself be hit by collateral once and that was with rifles vs old junk. I still had to retreat behind a river and heal up after. It was 1.5 players worth of old junk, but still. I've seen rifles be beaten back by muskets / maces along with enough cats. Even tech it can get much uglier.

12) To be fair Organized religion is my favorite Civac and see #11 above. You have tons of missionaries to build ASAP, AP buildings (hopefully) to be buildings soon, you still have newish cities to get online, castles, and you have some really expensive banks and universities to be building soon and you don't want to whip commerce cities very much (although if other cities can temporarily take cottages its ok, but like Code Name shouldn't ever whip again if it can be avoided). I would stay in org religion until the end of the 3rd GA even (which you should be thinking about even before 2nd GA how to get those people).

I'm off for a bit, I may have time for quick questions, but nothing long form.

[Tarkeel]

Re #3: Mills are mainly worth it if you can afford to run Serfdom, and after you have Replaceable Parts. After that, they are great tiles! See PB58 for an example. They are better on low-food maps though, which this doesn't seem to be.

[Miro]

Ok, cool! And what does a long term NAP look like? Offer Cow + 40g for Cow + 40g to indicate 40T of peace?

[greenline]

Ok, cool! And what does a long term NAP look like? Offer Cow + 40g for Cow + 40g to indicate 40T of peace?

Yes, although I would not rely on someone to uphold a NAP for that many turns, given how much the game state could change by the end of it.

[Miro]

T151 Update:

HE HAS RISEN! I finally have a religion! My people follow Brian of Nazareth and I will spread his Christianity across the empire. Next turn I'll enter my GA so 2 cities can produce missionaries.

I got Compass first and whipped out 8+ Harbors to help my economy.

I'm far behind in tech. Aside from Literature, Music, and Theology, coldrain has at least 9300 more bulbs than me (Optics + Astro + Guilds + HBR + Construction + Gunpowder + Philo).

I offered coldrain Fish for Fish.
xist does not have gold income, so I'll offer him 20T peace later.

I'll have vision on everyone's research next turn.

Everyone has open borders with me and no one else, so I'm scouting out their areas and they're scouting out mine.
I see coldrain's stacks in the middle of his land. size: 15 and 10? Knights, Cats, HAs, Elephants. I found a stack of 15 Knights at xist's border with coldrain. (no vision for coldrain?)

Tech path: Con + Engineering, then Guilds.

I declined this T149 trade from xist:


I got my own Fur T151, not interested in giving Dye.

New Cities:
I built 6 new cities!

Republic o Rome: Centered at the heart of our Roman competitor's empire, Republic of Rome is about running a political house with famous Romans. As a group, you must build up Roman armies to fight wars and gain influence as war generals or senators. When someone gains enough influence, they become Caesar and win!

Mechs v Minions: Mechs vs Minions is for all of the League of Legends nerds who want to play as a team rather than soloing the top lane (me, silver Garen, whaddup ), soloing the middle lane, or whatever happens in the jungle. You play as Riot's yordles against many minions!

Patchwork: Ohhh Patchwork. I played this game once and I couldn't wait for it to be over. It's a good game, it was the best part of the date I was on, but the date was agony. First date, little conversation, nothing like her profile. Anyways, build a cool quilt to get more points! A good, short, 2-player game.

Age o Mythology: Age of Mythology (board game version) is a ton of fun! Or so I'm told. I got it when I was a tween because it had a really cool looking box. Never played the thing, nobody wanted to read the rule book. But I had fun playing with the dozens of figurines where hoplites would fight hydras!

Carcassone: My friends and I tried out a new game at a board game cafe with some 40+ page rule book. After half an hour of frustration just trying to understand the first turn, we gave up and went to good ol' Carcassone. Draw tile, put next to another tile. Then put a little figure down to score points. Easy AF.

Mysterium: A coop game where a ghost (GM) deals out cards to all of the psychics/mediums trying to solve a mystery. The cards have no text, just images that the ghost hopes you'll interpret the same way they do. You have 2 minutes to figure out which tile you're each meant to go to and those who guess correctly move on to the next stage. All must pass 3 stages in 7 tries.

This puts me at 30 cities.


Maps:
As mentioned, xist has a land border with coldrain!

Mjmd already saw when he logged in and the rest of you probably knew this for months, so idk who I'm telling this to. Hi future Gav!
The two separate seas part is cool:


Demographics/Charts:



Questions:
(Q1): During the GA, would you use Slavery to whip out Missionaries or use a different civic? I never use Serfdom, but I'm used to using Caste System with my National Epic city to assign a ton of specialists. I want to whip Missionaries out ASAP, but I think I've been whipping too much (see population demographic)
(Q2): Should I close borders with xist and coldrain? If so, do I let them scout my land first? I just scouted their land, so it'd feel sketchy to close borders right after. I saw PB57 TBS mention:

(...) You often don't want to trade with the leader, and embargoing them feels more achievable with small numbers, so that's one player gone. The GLH player is another who also might be embargoed.

[Tarkeel]

In general, during a golden age you want to avoid the whip: The GA bonuses are directly proportional to the citizens you're working, so most people will prepare for the GA by letting cities grow. There's usually two options here: Either run CasteSystem to use the GPP bonus to set up for the next GA, or use Serfdom to get commerce on farms (which can then quality for GA bonus).