[49 spoilers] Miguelito, pindicator and Adrien take Shiva by the hands

[Miguelito]

turn 61

Why don't I play in my happy sandbox alone, again?


Does Commodore really want the gold that much? Doesn't he realize how I'm going to swamp all of that in culture starting from the next turn (of course he does). Does he not care because he'll let Boudicca loose in a couple of turns anyways? But I have not seen a real power buildup on his part yet (sure, he has barracks everywhere apparently, so really doesn't need as many units, but with defender's advantage I'd still suppose I'll handle it).
The spot where the warrior has been fortified on is just bad for a city. I hope he moves the party NW, trying to eat into Raskolnikov's cadaver, ie grab those wheats. Else he gets a terrible city with no gold (because we'll have the third ring likely before he gets the second, even if he chops the barracks), and we get an annoyed neighbour and a lot of tension on that border.

Good news is Superdeath is going for his revenge, that should keep Ruff busy and hopefully make him accept orange dot (if we choose to go for it, still interested in your opinion pindi).


Ruff hasn't been building any significant power since their war ended, so maybe SD can actually deal him a blow, that would be good for us in all regards.

Demos/graphs, still not looking very uplifting. We're seriously down in pop compared to the rest, and I'm planning on another 5 whipped pop until turn 66 (might spare Pashupati and/or Mahadeva, but I feel our border force is pretty shaky atm)

[Miguelito]

turn 62

pleasant news first, we founded Nilakantha:




As far as I understood, the name is from a myth where Shiva drinks poison emanating from the milk ocean (as the gods and demons are churning it in order to produce an elixir of immortality - Hindu myths are pretty colourful), so as to prevent it from spilling all over the world. His wife then strangles him to avoid the poison getting into his stomach, and saves him, but the posion leaves him with a blue throat (Nilakantha).
Free fish! To the west there could be another gems island. The Ruffian coastline is relaxing regarding the prospects of getting boated from the south, moreso as his last city also wasn't founded on this body of water (of course he could build ships there and then get through using a fort, but that's far fetched)


so Commodore did what I feared he would:


I hadn't seen Cornflakes' city there (goodbye to settling for gold/sheep, but maybe further south later on). That makes Comm's plant so much more awkward. 11 turns until we start flipping his city (less if Pashupati founds Judaism), if he doesn't get that barracks out real fast:


So the only way I see that he gets value out of that city is if he razes ours within the next ten turns. I am suspecting him of trying to establish a turn order where he moves second; it doesn't matter as much as I'm already on high alert. Otoh, his power is still flat and we have 20% more now. Of course, against Boudicca our unpromoted units are still in for a lot of trouble, but without numbers he can't really break through. He did a single 2pop whip last turn, before that there was one t58, which I think was the settler.
I am considering a walls in Pashupati - of course it is kinda stupid if we are expecting 40% cultural defenses quite soon anyways, but if the attack comes before, I think for a garrison of 4-6 units going 20%->50% defenses could actually be helpful? We have stone so it costs only 25 hammers, some less with OR if we finally get another Hindu spread (it was founded 37 turns ago and still has only spread to the capital , I haven't really monitored foreign spreads though). In any case, we need some more warm bodies first. At some point of course we can just put a stack on the gold hill and see what he does, if he doesn't garrison better first.

I am very probably going to whip the axe there next turn and put the overflow into the prebuilt spear (which is close to hammer decay). That might bring us a turn or two not working the new sheep pasture (I don't consider not working the oasis a great loss), but I feel we need the units, and there's another reason:
In two turns we are set to research Monotheism and found Judaism in all likelihood. That has some value as a strong culture site.

• Ideally I'd have it at Nilakantha (on the island), but that was just founded and has pop 1, so unlikely.
  
• At Pashupati it would speed up the third ring even more, which is good, but I think I'd like it more at Gangadhara, which gets no culture yet. With the axe whip, both will be size 2. To my understanding, the holy city location is based on no. of other religions (but as I said, Hindu won't spread), pop size, and chance. So that would give Gangadhara ~50%, with an off-chance for Nilakantha
  

However, it will be useful at any of these.

Raskolnikov founded a third city and whipped three pop.

Demos/graphs. There must be an interesting story to read in FT's thread

[pindicator]

Going for Oracle and Monotheism was always going to put you in a bit of a hole compared to your neighbors. If you're concerned about defense I'd pick either Construction or Horseback Riding as a near-term tech target. I suppose you could do Feudalism too since we're already down the religious line and HR will be highly desirable so we can grow tall.

We seem to be running out of spots to settle; that may alone be why Commodore picked such a close border city. I still agree that more units will be needed, but don't end up building so many that you kill your economy. Better to have just enough to get by now and then get us to something with some more staying power for defense, like longbows, horchers, or catapults. I'm more concerned about workers and growing our economy tbh.

[Miguelito]

Going for Oracle and Monotheism was always going to put you in a bit of a hole compared to your neighbors.

I don't see us in a hole really. We are obviously behind Fintourist, as is everybody. But after him, we were the first to five cities, and our CY/MFG/GNP numbers have been average among our neighbours or slightly above. We are quite low in pop, but that's in part because we've whipped quite a lot (meaning our actual hammer output is relatively higher), and also means we have some room to grow (also with gems, gold, and elephants waiting to come online)

If you're concerned about defense I'd pick either Construction or Horseback Riding as a near-term tech target.  I suppose you could do Feudalism too since we're already down the religious line and HR will be highly desirable so we can grow tall.

After Monotheism, Agriculture and AH are pretty much set in stone, but after that there are some options to discuss, as you have started here. We will want a military option beyond axes/spears:

• HBR I see as useful if we want to go for a limited offensive fast. Horchers should be effective against Cairo's in-our-face city as well as Commodore's. They could also threaten Ruff effectively and maybe even take some land from him if he gets stalled in his superdeath conflict, and maybe be relevant in the south for the barb city (doubt it will still be there) and Fintourist (doubt it). 318 adjusted beakers
  
• Construction is probably the best defensive solution. 900 adjusted beakers, and two techs on the way to Currency (chop bonus on Maths won't matter too much )
  
• Feudalism sounds nice, as our SPI civ would really love Vassalage and RtR Serfdom. It's very expensive though and doesn't get us closer to Currency (how much do we need that, with limited room for expansion and our FP village and ICTR? I am not sure I concur with you assessment of Monarchy - we still have three luxes to come online, 2 of them forge bonified. We also get happiness from the granaries, and finally there's some hope we'll get the pyramids 1341 adjusted beakers.
  
• Iron working - swords off boats would be awesome against Cairo, and with MC from the Oracle we should have great control of the seas for a while. We'll also want IW to start cutting down that jungle, there's a whole city which can only be enabled by that (but currently we wouldn't have the workers). The military value is purely offensive though, and gives us next to nothing against Commodore, who atm seems like the greater threat 246 adjusted beakers
  
• Machinery for crossbows - not as strong on its own without catapults, but very helpful against ancient stuff I think. On our way to engineering (our UU, and privateers with optics) and also knights. I still have it as a possibly bulb target, else it's 1014 adjusted beakers
  

Now a big question for me is whether we can justify doing these before currency. We have relatively good commerce sources - the flood plains, ICTR, the gold and gems mines (pending ). So I think HBR yes, Construction probably as well (but maybe not both), Feudalism rather not? (would have to compensate with Serfdom specialists or something, that seems like a tricky path).

My current feeling is HBR, then go for Currency with the option to switch to Construction if things heat up. I think this is also the most conventional play and I've been doing enough cute stuff for now.

We seem to be running out of spots to settle; that may alone be why Commodore picked such a close border city.  I still agree that more units will be needed, but don't end up building so many that you kill your economy.  Better to have just enough to get by now and then get us to something with some more staying power for defense, like longbows, horchers, or catapults.  I'm more concerned about workers and growing our economy tbh.

Yes. It's weird - Comm makes that pretty aggressive plants, but still seems to not build up any power. If it stays like that, with the current round of units I'll feel relatively safe. The situation is also ever changing, which brings us to our

turn 63 report,

Where Commodore went ahead and founded yet another close by city:


This city also claims little for him - he had that rice before already. It has a sugar in its second ring which will be ours though as long as Pashupati stands. This is why I still feel very threatened: Both of these cities are quite bad on themselves, but much worse still with Pashupati churning out all that culture. Otoh, if he had just invested the 200 hammers into a stack to take our city, i think that would have done him lot better, so what he's doing doesn't look actually aggressive. What I like about this plant is that it creates a tense border with Cairo as well. It actually makes an attack on us a lot less attractive for Cairo, as Comm could always just split him after that.
You seem to be right that Comm is just out of good spots to settle, but that doesn't explain to me why he doesn't leverage Boudicca into something else. As said, he could attack Pashupati. What's more and even better, he could go west for Raskolnikov. Rasko and Cornflakes finally made peace after at least 30 turns, but Rasko is definitely in bad shape and I imagine he would find it hard to withstand an AGG/CHM stack.
Finally, in two turns I would be able to put 2 axes and a spear on the gold tile, while still leaving a spear (and a warrior and scout) in Pashupati, and see what he has in the fog. Should I? Would you?
All that said, I feel I have to remain very vigilant, but you are correct that if he doesn't start building up power now, I should turn back the focus on development. My plan for the garrison is a spear in Pashupati, one in Mahadeva (for if Cairo comes out with an immortal in SS), and three axes and another spear on the "rally" tile, from where they can reach Mahadeva in 2 turns (and block the jungle tile next to it in 1).


We whipped the work boat in the capital and start the forge next turn with the OR bonus. Curious where Judaism will spawn. PAshupati, Gangadhara, and Nilakantha are at sizes 2/2/1, none of them are Hindu (still no spread ).

I hadn't posted cities and whips in a while. On the occasion of us taking the lead (not necessarily a good thing...) here is the update:




Demos and graphs. Worth looking at despite the spoiler

not stellar after the two whips this turn

I am intrigued how FT manages to dominate both CY and GNP simultaneously. He doesn't even have Writing yet, to explain it with bibs. I didn't take a shot, but he also has more ressources up for trade than anybody, including silver. Should be a result of his Terraces. Now of course the big story is his power spike. All without whips of course. Might be a horcher buildup.
I "suppose" it's not for us, as we don't really border each other yet. It might be for the barb city, or also likely an attack on Cornflakes, which would explain why he gave Raskolnikov peace.  I'm not too worried for Cornflakes, he should have a pretty good  reserve again by now. If FT attacks him and gets stalled that would make the game more interesting again.

[pindicator]

What does Cairo have in that city right now? I'm wondering if we could just boat it.

[Miguelito]

What does Cairo have in that city right now?  I'm wondering if we could just boat it.

Archer/ spear,  and the new axe on the way.  I think HAs are more promising there.  the capital should be a boating target though,  to get a lucky kill or force him to split his troops

[pindicator]

Honestly, boating is probably best either if we see a critical oversight in defense, or otherwise when we get Machinery and CKNs.

Now that could be an idea for the great engineer...

EDIT: nevermind, forgot crossbows were sent back to vanilla form

[Miguelito]

turn 64

lots of events:

1.   can't be bad for us, but Elkad has already decared two wars that ended after a few turns without visible effect. He also settled his fifth city, maybe there's a conflict there, but of course I wouldn't complain if it were something bigger. I don't feel we're in a position to backstab Cairo right now, busy consolidating. (we could of course just load 2 axes on the galley and send it to the cap, but that's more of a troll)
   
2. team Finharry and company proving their famous killer instinct again (shame on me for not having considered this evident possibility last turn in my previous report). He can likely eat him all up. Well, let's have fun while we still can pursue our plans, and who knows how it all plays out, but FT seems pretty set to win already.
   
3. maybe just maybe this gives SD the respite he needs to hold against FT (GKC is covering for him).
   
4. this turn I learned that you don't get holy city culture from a religion that isn't your state religion (or has it to do with OR? What happens when you don't have a state religion, no culture at all? Yeah, those are basics...). So actually everything I wrote in the previous post on the subject is moot and this is possibly the best place for it to spawn, as Pashu doesn't really want a natural Hindu spread all that much anyways.
   

CF is going out for a stroll, hopefully not settling for the sheep already. If he does that, we can't really respond. Bowmen on hills are nasty btw, I've mentioned that before (I don't feel threatened by CF in general, and actually hope he gets strong enough to be a counterweight against FT)

Comm keeps dumping his EP on us, not a good sign - when do I have to start worrying about research/city visibility? At the moment I'll just spend one EP per turn to keep graphs



Demos/graphs... looking decent if you're somehow colourblind to just yellow

Question to the team:


(tiles without a sign have just the visible unit on them)
Next turn I can move the 2 axes and a new spear (and the warrior) onto the gold tile and threaten his warrior defended city. Should I? I think rather not, as that city is so useless for him that I don't mind him dragging it along. We don't gain as much so as to justifiy the bad blood (with, remember Boudicca). Is it even smart to flash the two axes this turn? On the one hand, he can notice if we do not go for his city next turn, and take it as a sign of good intentions (or weakness). On the other hand, it's free info on our stack for him (but might also dissuade him from attacking)

[AdrienIer]

You can get out of hinduism to get the culture from the second religion if you want. But it would cost you the OR bonus for 10 turns.

What does Commodore's power graph look like ?

[Miguelito]

You can get out of hinduism to get the culture from the second religion if you want. But it would cost you the OR bonus for 10 turns.

What does Commodore's power graph look like ?

Yeah, the point is,  I don't need the culture there, so it's rather good that it spawned there and doesn't block Hinduism in the other cities (although a change to Judaism after finishing the forge would have made sense.  is it really 10 turns that you can't change religion again,  not 5 like the civics?

I'm posting graphs every turn in the spoiler tags. Comm's is rather flat,  but he's Agg/Chm