Thanks Charriu, and Noble, that confirms the formula from civfanatics. I'll have to see how I can reconcile it with the spreadsheet.
As you see, we keep the mechanics questions on coming :
(September 15th, 2020, 07:49)Rusten Wrote:
Quote:When do Barb warriors start spawning? Still before 2nd cities get founded? Was it a hard turn number like 25?
Thinking about it some more it should be much later than this, so I don't think we need the scout even (although I am very interested in scouting the area anyway). There was a change in this mod that makes warriors never lose to animals when on the same tile as a settler, wasn't there? I seem to remember something like this. We've got barbs off in PBEM78 so I haven't looked into it much. If so the warrior can just move to the sheep tile and then move to the hill with the settler with no concerns.
Here is the line from the changelog:
Quote:Unit mechanics
...
Free Wins against Barbs: All units that can act as MP get Free Wins against barbs as long as a settler is present in the same tile. Does still reduce your Free Wins towards Barbs
So I understand that a warrior covering a settler should always win against barbarians on defense, regardless of free wins (which are 0 on monarch anyway)? I'd be curious how this is implemented actually. My test returned this:
So he certainly wins more than he should, but isn't invincible (note that this is after moving up to them. I first edited in 8 barb warriors next to a warior/settler pair on flatland, and lost to the 3rd or 4th barb warrior (and also to the first modern armour). Is it just an immense combat bonus or something of the sort? Related combat log:
But the real issue would be if a bear or lion just decided to walk onto the blue dot hill on t31, which of course is absolutely possible. So still best to bring the scout home, also in order to scout the south.
No turn report tonight as we're having server problems.
Quote:But the real issue would be if a bear or lion just decided to walk onto the blue dot hill on t31, which of course is absolutely possible. So still best to bring the scout home, also in order to scout the south.
Yes, good point. The scout can just lure the animal away if that happens.
Nice tests, I look forward to Charriu's response already
Yes I did the same test with the same result. I my change uses the same base code for free wins and if I remember correctly then they didn't make the unit invincible, they only crank up the odds to a high value.
I think I will do a deep dive for my curios civ player segment.
Elkad doesn't seem to have an evident spot towards his SE, while Cairo has the wheatriver goodness. I'm a bit concerned that we might end up cut off from Elkad by Cairo.
Despite losing 2 turns with our workers, we were tied for 2nd to the size 3 capital:
And with the sheep pasture finished, we now have the world's top crop yield . I'm feeling less terrible about the delayed start.
Here is the projected scout path (numbers on the signs are turns of arrival)
I'm curious if we find a neighbour there. I can't really picture this big blob largely left to us.
In other news:
our threefold KTB for Mining was good for nothing apparently, because 12*(1+0.3*3/11) = 12.98, getting rounded down
For BW we will get a few extra beakers, but as well nothing for a good while unless a third contact researches
Speaking of, 2 of our contacts have BW already, but none has revolted. I'm assuming no capital copper, but could actually change tile yield for Cairo
Gira and Cairo found each other.
the warrior get on his forested hill lookout post next turn.
So, looking back at the list, we are directly bordering #1 of the cataphractability rating, are on a diagonal with #2, and #4 is neighbouring albeit over water. Our four known neighbours are the 4 on the bottom of the fear rating list. Seems like a perfect storm?
Our simple game plan was grow strong and build phracts, and this neighbour setting seems perfect. So much that I'm getting anxious, so what could go wrong?
We get distracted by something and fail to expand sufficiently, leaving us with insufficient muscle to get to guilds, or to get a sufficient number ready.
The Oracle plan is the main temptation here. The CoL play seems very strong, and fun, but it's very unlikely to work with Augustus of Spain in the game, and I'm hesitant to run a significant risk in order to get it. It would be something for our likely fourth city (purple), or the third after a border pop (10t after monument which it doesn't really need too much otherwise). Also the current purple dot is worse for the purpose than the original one (one forest less, no PH, no first ring horses). Now there is good stuff for us on the way or close by (Poly, temples, Mono) and we already have considered to just research CoL in case we don't get Oracle, so following that tech path after Pottery still seems viable, and if naufragar delays, or is truly after GLH or the likes, maybe we can build it late 50s? Would be interested in your opinion here Rusten.
gira plays stronger than expected, with pindi dedlurking engagedly after he isn't as busy with PB52 anymore (here's hoping for lots of Werewolf games). I have to admit that I see gira as a target mainly, but you should always respect an opponent and be prepared for a surprise. I certainly hope to be playing better than in past games
This is the game where Cairo decides to change his style and either tries to use his AGG trait to stop us before we get to phracts or manages an early invasion of Elkad, cutting us off in the north. In case of his attack, we should have a pretty favourable battlefield with red do in the center.
naufragar's Montezuma roleplay spills over to this game and he tries some naval invasion of us
none of the above, but I still botch the expansion (more on that below)
Takeaway, basically, is that
Quote:grow strong and build phracts
is correct, and the first part must not be forgotten. Lots of IMP settlers, and never take security for granted, as they all have a high interest in killing us early. That's all pretty trivial, but good to remind myself periodically.
Here is the rectangle of capitals:
And here the contested area between the four of us.
Note what's missing here? Food. Overall I've found very little on the map, and this central river valley only has some on the margins, where there are natural 2nd to 4th city spots for us (poor Elkad doesn't really get access to the river). Ftr our purple dot is NW of the wet rice. So how does one improve this? Probably not without grassland farms which I usually wouldn't build but gotta adapt to the circumstances. Relevant in this regard that Serfdom gives +1c to farms and +1h to mills (water/wind). So maybe we'll end up with rather few cottages here, despite the first look?
Minor news and musings:
Elkad has been playing a pretty similar start to ours apparently (reminder that he moved on t0):
He grew the turn after.
Our paths will diverge now - he started with mining to our wheel, but spent a good amount of turns researching Meditation, so we'll still have BW well before him - assuming he also had pasture resources.
Mr. Cairo has now put 46 EP into us. If he keeps spending all of it on us I'll start to get worried. this is the last turn spending on Elkad, then I'll start full steam with Cairo at least until we get the graphs. (already been putting 3/4 for a while so we are at about 25 right now)
Is gira's 1 fish 1 crab 1 cow balanced in comparison to our grasspig/plainssheep? Overall food for him is higher - but we have the FP - , but he has to build 2 workboats. We had to research AH, which is less comfortable than agriculture, but would have been perfectly doable had we picked our civ according to our start and not because we want to flatten the world under our hooves.
No new KTB appearing in F6
next turn we'll be second to grow to size 4, the 2nd warrior finishes and the worker starts
As a man who was a teen in the late 90s, I of course have some taste in NuMetal/Rapcore. Classic Metallica will always get a head-bang from me, and in my concert-going days I hit up some Linkin Park, Staind, Seether, Evanescence, Breaking Benjamin, Crossfade, Disturbed, etc. As I've gotten older I find myself more likely to enjoy Guns N' Roses and other slightly older stuff.
If only you and me and dead people know hex, then only deaf people know hex.
Late 50s Oracle sounds good. We have a river, but we don't have any resource tiles with a lot of commerce so The Oracle would be of great help. I'm with you in not going all-in on it, though. But as you say it's a tech path we're interested in anyway so I see no harm in giving it a try. The opportunity cost is low. I'm happy to get monarchy with The Oracle as well, it doesn't have to be CoL if we struggle to research writing in time. Not only is HR very good but we also have wine.
Looking at how close Gira is settling this rice city on the hill is a priority. I'm curious if that's his only source of horses, it would be a little cruel of Commodore if so.
(September 17th, 2020, 16:28)Commodore Wrote: As a man who was a teen in the late 90s, I of course have some taste in NuMetal/Rapcore. Classic Metallica will always get a head-bang from me, and in my concert-going days I hit up some Linkin Park, Staind, Seether, Evanescence, Breaking Benjamin, Crossfade, Disturbed, etc. As I've gotten older I find myself more likely to enjoy Guns N' Roses and other slightly older stuff.
So, do you like good metal enough that you kept all the precious stuff to yourself? To be seen...
Played my first double turn, 26 & 27:
We are now at size 4 (non-tie second in the world in t26, beaten by one turn; t27 another cap grew to size 4). Elkad and Gira both have their caps at 3
Cairo continues to put all his EP into us, now at 54. I'm doing the same, and will try to at least secure his graphs. At some point he should want nauf's graphs as well. Is it an indication though that he doesn't have a northern neighbour? Or is it just him forgetting to switch off after reaching 43?
I think Elkad's start is different from ours in that he apparently has no Hunting, as the mouseover on his scout doesn't show the animal bonus (on ours it does)
Hinduism was founded eot 26. I suspect scooter (Gandhi of Korea) but of course we can't know. It was expected we wouldn't get it, although seeing both religions fall before t30 is surprising. Probably has to do with so many Myst civs in the game and them getting free beakers (not everyone has Wheel and 2 AH resources). The CoL plan is appearing even more worthwhile, although it is also possible that we catch Judaism. We may also get Buddhism early from Elkad and use that for a while while we have no better option.
--> When I logged in for a screenshot the scoreboard confirmed scooter as having adopted and founded the religion*. I feel that a religion is usually far stronger in a 2nd city where you really want the culture. I am not sure whether scooter without IMP would be able to get a city founded last turn. I did exactly that, settle and found Hindu the same turn (25 I think), in PB49, but with Justinian on a double fish start. If he has a coastal start, he'd need a tech more than me in that game, and if he doesn't, he gets less commerce, which however is balanced by the CtH 1.4 Myst commerce and the 2c capital tile that he may have as well.
*Charriu, should this be the case, even when we have not met him? I mean viewing unknown players' state religion, in general.
Demos:
We're great on CY, although that will be reduced next turn when we'll switch an FP to the newly finished mine. Also notable that Gira even after his CRE border pop has less than 21 land tiles in his culture.
(September 18th, 2020, 06:42)Rusten Wrote: Late 50s Oracle sounds good. We have a river, but we don't have any resource tiles with a lot of commerce so The Oracle would be of great help. I'm with you in not going all-in on it, though. But as you say it's a tech path we're interested in anyway so I see no harm in giving it a try. The opportunity cost is low. I'm happy to get monarchy with The Oracle as well, it doesn't have to be CoL if we struggle to research writing in time. Not only is HR very good but we also have wine.
Looking at how close Gira is settling this rice city on the hill is a priority. I'm curious if that's his only source of horses, it would be a little cruel of Commodore if so.
What a nice lead to have a big picture view on Commodore's beautiful, if a bit hungry, world, and talk dotmapping:
You see that the first ring of the capital is dotmapped. Very likely another dot goes to the island east from the cap. Oh yeah, there is in fact a fish is in the second ring of that pigs-sharing hill, as Rusten predicted.
My planned order for these is blue-red-purple-yellow-green-island - but we may need an earlier furs city, and if the island looks shiny and is contested with naufragar we may want to consider it earlier, although we can hardly race nauf there if he really wants it.
I see two points requiring discussion:
You wrote above that with the fish, you consider yellow the strongest second city site, but honestly I have trouble seeing that. Sure it gets the better food tile from the cap, but it needs a monument, which can't be chopped, but has to get 1pop whipped after growing with the pig. Next it needs a workboat, and you also probably don't want to chop that. So another whip or natural production from the horse. Seems a long way for me until this city can contribute.
Purple dot. There is the option to move this 1W. I think it's the only way for us to claim those horses against Pericles, but it turns the dot a lot pinker, particularly if we went with the original plan to build Oracle there. That would cut into Giras first ring of cities, and likey make him an enemy forever, judging by PB52 (not a spoiler at this point I feel).
Also copper may still change everything, and then we have to decide really fast, as the settler comes out the turn after BW.
:
. I'm feeling less terrible about the delayed start.
