(September 21st, 2015, 15:40)Kuro Wrote:The way you avoid power creep without a rotation is to invent more viable archetypes--did Grand Tournament do so? I haven't been paying much attention to high-level Hearthstone Constructed, but Joust and Inspire don't lead themselves to linear archetypes like, say, a Mech deck. I know there's the Paladin Secret deck now, and there are enough good cards for a Dragon deck to actually be viable, but is there anything else that's completely new and not just an improvement?(September 21st, 2015, 09:53)uberfish Wrote: HS is actually avoiding power creep very well atm. There are lots of playable legends in the latest expansion but for the most part they seem to add more options rather than being auto-includes, even within their target deck archetypes. The only card that I think is an unambiguous upgrade is Justicar in control warrior.
It is, but I do think that won't be able to last forever myself. I am actually pretty happy with how they've avoided creeping much, though.
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Did a new Arena run, and I'm back to my (apparently?) old reliable Druid. It's another weird deck though--the card quality is very high (double Swipe, double Starfire, Savage Combatant, multiple good 4-drops), but my curve's a little wonky (mainly the lack of 3-drops). I even intentionally took an Innervate in an attempt to try to shore that up a bit, even though I don't like it at all.
The meta is still shaking out but both dragon priest and secrets paladin do appear tournament viable. And secrets paladin really is two different decks (aggro and midrange versions) that both aim to slam mysterious challenger on Turn 6. I've seen a couple attempts at Inspire based decks (majordomo mage looked pretty good) but nothing amazing yet. Burst shaman seems "ok" but not better than other decks.
It's tough to see a Joust-based deck succeeding except for one-offs like King's Elekk enabling control hunter or Healing Wave enabling some sort of Shaman deck. What is more likely is some of the class-focused card in TGT may enable decks that people haven't optimized yet so haven't hit ladder yet. Stuff like taunt midrange warrior or beast druid may be viable. We'll probably know more after Blizzcon ends because people are unlikely to bring untested decks to the big tournies right now. In all I think TGT is impressively designed in that they added two new archetypes (so far) while simultaneously not majorly buffing any of the preexisting archetypes, so no power creep. If you look at the top constructed decklists right now virtually all of them look identical to pre-TGT lists with only one or two exceptions (Aspirant in Druid being the most obvious). (September 21st, 2015, 16:18)Cheater Hater Wrote:(September 21st, 2015, 15:40)Kuro Wrote:The way you avoid power creep without a rotation is to invent more viable archetypes--did Grand Tournament do so? I haven't been paying much attention to high-level Hearthstone Constructed, but Joust and Inspire don't lead themselves to linear archetypes like, say, a Mech deck. I know there's the Paladin Secret deck now, and there are enough good cards for a Dragon deck to actually be viable, but is there anything else that's completely new and not just an improvement?(September 21st, 2015, 09:53)uberfish Wrote: HS is actually avoiding power creep very well atm. There are lots of playable legends in the latest expansion but for the most part they seem to add more options rather than being auto-includes, even within their target deck archetypes. The only card that I think is an unambiguous upgrade is Justicar in control warrior. Secret Paladin and Dragon Priest are, as mentioned, two notable new archetypes. Dreadsteed Warlock was also doing good a while back but IDK if they're still doing fine or if that was a short lived fad. I don't think they've hit the highest level yet but I hear Totem Shaman and Beast Druid are doing good at mid levels. Inspire doesn't really have a big archetype ATM but I'd be surprised if one doesn't happebn soon, a lot of the cards are on the cusp and there's a lot of powerful inspire cards like Nexus Champion Saraad. Joust is really more of a small mechanic to include in a deck than a deckbuilding one unless potent build-around Joust cards come out.
It's good to know there are so many archetypes--I guess, even if each class has two viable archetypes that's almost 20 total, which is a lot for a premier format with relatively few cards.
Well, that Druid deck was even better than I thought it was--it went to 10 wins, a new record for me! It certainly didn't look like it at first; it was 0-1 and 2-2, but then it rattled off a ton of wins. That deck had so much burst, with all the burn and Charge. 245 gold is certainly a lot 
(September 21st, 2015, 22:44)Cheater Hater Wrote: It's good to know there are so many archetypes--I guess, even if each class has two viable archetypes that's almost 20 total, which is a lot for a premier format with relatively few cards. Yeah. For any card game 20 viable decks is actually on the really high end of the curve, though it also depends on how we define "viable" of course.
Here's a tricky rogue draft:
http://www.heartharena.com/arena-run/a1d5fm notable picks: #4 - Sap vs Undercity Valiant vs Shadopan Rider: The rider is a strong card on the coin but I don't want to end up with more than 1 of this card unless I have a bunch of low cost activators. I'm taking sap which has a much higher impact than undercity valiant #11 - Acidic swamp ooze vs Argent Horserider: I already have three 3-drops here and didn't want to pick a fourth one so early #13 - Mad bomber vs Faerie Dragon: if I had some good 1-drops which is my preferred way to play rogue, I'd take the faerie. unfortunately the deck is looking a bit clunky at this stage so I'm taking the bomber to help swing slightly behind positions #14 - spiteful smith vs silver hand vs Horserider: Taking the 4-6 for AOE resilience reasons. Also I don't have any weapons giving some value to the Smith activation #15 - ogre brute vs gnomish inventor: another 3 drop, but gnomish inventor sucks. #19 - bloodsail raider vs assassinate: I'm a strong believer in 2 drops and 2/3 counters the paladin nonsense + there is a small pirate synergy. With no card draw, I also really don't want 2 Assassinate in hand. #21 - defias vs spectral knight: early game tempo, tempo, tempo #22 - Young dragonhawk vs sinister strike: well, these both suck as anything but combo enablers. at least a 1/1 can interact with the board #23 - Kodo vs SI7: I really don't have enough activators to support two SI7 and I have too many 3-drops. Kodo gets a lot of targets with Maiden of the Lake and so on showing up. (I picked up two more 1 drops later which would have made the SI7 a more attractive pick, sigh) what would you have picked? Guess the result (September 22nd, 2015, 06:57)uberfish Wrote: Here's a tricky rogue draft: #4: Undercity Valiant or Shado-Pan Rider every time, they have a higher corrolation with winning AFAIK and pick 4 is too early to worry about mana curve, tho you had 3s anyway. I also am not a big fan of Sap in Rogue unless you've got tempo cards already and because it can be pretty dead. Valiant vs. Shado-pan would depend on my mood, I'm feeling Valiant today. Yes I disagree a lot with HearthArena here, I feel Sap is a card it overvalues a good deal because it is very deck specific. #11: You've got no 2-drops since no Valiant, so Ooze every time. The two are close anyway. #13: Even with 1-drops, unless it is a truly crazy amount of 1-drops, I take the Bomber because it allows 50/50 trades with 2/3s and can have mid-range tempo potential. #14: Your deck lacks any heaviness and Rogue means you've always got a weapon, I'd pick Spiteful Smith here too. #15: Gnomish Inventor is actually pretty good, 2/4 eats up 2-drops and can trade even with most 3-drops making it an early game killer and the cantrip is actually really nice in tempo as a 5+ play (4 + 1, 4 + 2 etc) to keep the tempo up. I'd probably still take the Brute but I agree with HearthArena that it is close and probably down to preference. #19: You're probably forced to take Raider here because your early game is very bad right now (the Sap is pretty dead ATM due to this), but it is sad you can't get the 2nd Assassinate because you also don't have a strong late game. #21: I'd also take Ringleader, your early game is still bad at this point. #22: Young Dragonhawk all day as they both activate Combo the same but Dragonhawk puts some fear of Cold Blood in and can waste 2 mana on a ping. #23: I'd take SI: 7 Agent every day, you can always come across combos, it fits into your curve as well as Kodo and when you get the Coin with it is great and helps with what the deck's at the time worse early game was (You hadn't gotten four of the 3-drops and less you picked at this point). As fort he deck predictions I'd make, hmm. I don't really think this deck is tempo TBH despite what HearthArena says, you don't really fight for tempo, this is more of a midrange deck with strong 3s into solid 4s into strong 5+s like Piloted Sky Golem, Argent Commander, Ravenholdt Assassin etc. This deck feels very average to me but I would give it a slight bump as it has what I'd call "power cards" to go with the overall quality (Piloted Sky Golem, Piloted Shredder, Kodorider, Argent Commander). My average for Rogue is 5.5, so...I would guess 6-3.
If I didn't have HearthArena scores to look at, I would've picked Gangup over the dragonhawk + sinister strike options. Dragonhawk is better now just because there's fewer mages than before but if it was my draft I probably would've made the -1.2 choice
"We are open to all opinions as long as they are the same as ours."
September 23rd, 2015, 00:29
(This post was last modified: September 23rd, 2015, 00:34 by uberfish.)
I think sap is a very good card at 1x and wins games. The tempo swing of kicking off a 5+ drop or even a premium 4 that you can't efficiently deal with on this turn is huge. flipping board control is worth much more than 1 card and 2 mana. Also the card you sap sometimes never even comes back at all because they don't have a board situation where they can play it efficiently anymore
I think the overvalued cards in HA are not innervate and sap, but gnomish inventor and acolyte of pain. |
