[SPOILER-PBEM14] Bismarck of Maya

[Gaspar]

I have to say, whenever zak or novice posts in the Lurker thread it weirds me out. Since the diplo in this game is just shy of a WW game, and those two are really good at WW, I always feel like I completely screwed something up and Sandover/scooter/Lewwyn is actually 5 tiles outside my new un-garrisoned city with a 3 chariots or something. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you.

Anyway, I was just doing the rounds around the other games, and it occurs to me as stupid as my situation is at this point, nobody is really playing that well. Like if novice or Krill or Kyan or someone else really good at micro was playing in this game, they'd have 8 cities with no garrison whatsoever, 23 workers, 4 wonders and have founded all the religions. Its really an interesting mix of players in this game. I think the big lessons I've learned about the other players and myself 52 turns into PBEM14 are:

• PBEM12 was a terrible first game to play at RB. Completely threw my internal timer off.
  
• The great players here all have spreadsheets and sandboxes and microplans out the wazoo. I intended to sandbox this game, got impetuous and lost it, now I can't talk myself into fixing it, especially since I didn't report the first 20 turns very well and don't even know what I did now.
  
• The players in this game all play by feel. I think Sandover is a very good player, but I think what's missed is that he was playing in a game where only Timmy was a really good Civ player at that point. His impetuousness in this game has him exposed a little bit where the overall calibre of player is higher.
  
• scooter has gotten a lot better at Civ since PBEM3/PBEM7.
  
• This game is on an Earth map, but it might as well be the Balkan peninsula. We're all making stupid mistakes based on emotional responses. I think scooter and I are taking steps to correct that.
  
• The absolute best thing I can do is try and engineer conflict between the other players and keep myself in a little corner building stupid wonders. There's nothing to be gained by going to war with anyone other than Sandover for me, and I'd much rather Sandover's reputation stood between me and scooter, if not his actual Civ. I'd rather just settle that weird landmass east of my capital. And I need to settle it for defense purposes anyway. I'm not telling anyone other than Sandover about it, and I'll get a galley over there after I settle my next 3 cities on the mainland.
  
• I should get some scouting out there, to see if there's enough IC-TRs available to make GLh a worthwhile build.
  
• I've seen marble on the map but not stone. Wonder if there's any stone. Having stone and marble as the only IND civ could be a tremendous strategic advantage. If I had stone and a city with a forge and Buddhist OR, might even be worth building Chicken Pizza. No, not really. You may not build any more wonders until you have at least 7 cities up, Gaspar. Do you hear me, Gaspar, you d-bag?
  
• This list is now officially out of control.
  

Well. I resolve in the next 20 turns to be tighter with my worker micro, to build lots of workers/settlers/granaries/forges and not much else. I also resolve to try to stop running diplo like a game of werewolf and just be nice to everyone. Ok, that's probably not going to happen.

[novice]

Good stuff

I'm only stopping by occasionally, but you're keeping this thread a good read.

You know, WW5 is taking signups now.

[Ichabod]

You know, WW5 is taking signups now.

We all now that you are feeling the urge of playing another WW game. You are using this PBEM as a scapegoat, but you know the truth.

Join us again at the dark side, Gaspar. You know you want to...

:neenernee

[Gaspar]

We all now that you are feeling the urge of playing another WW game. You are using this PBEM as a scapegoat, but you know the truth.

Join us again at the dark side, Gaspar. You know you want to...

:neenernee

So true. The nice thing about this game is that I don't have to talk anyone into anything, however.

I'll give it some thought, though. In all seriousness, though, I'm in 4 games at this point, so if I joined and was a wolf, I have no idea how I'd find the time for it. There are limits to even my free time.

[Nicolae Carpathia]

• The great players here all have spreadsheets and sandboxes and microplans out the wazoo. I intended to sandbox this game, got impetuous and lost it, now I can't talk myself into fixing it, especially since I didn't report the first 20 turns very well and don't even know what I did now.
  
• The players in this game all play by feel. I think Sandover is a very good player, but I think what's missed is that he was playing in a game where only Timmy was a really good Civ player at that point. His impetuousness in this game has him exposed a little bit where the overall calibre of player is higher.
  

As someone who cares about micro as well, I'm starting to think they're overrated. They're of no use coming up with decisions, they're only of use to test and refine those decisions. You still need a good deal of experience and a good feel for the game anyway (alternatively I have neither and that's why mine don't seem to work!).

Also, while I have no idea how internet Werewolf works. I mean, I've done okay at Mafia with RL friends, but I have no idea how the rules work and I have zero experience with diplomacy-style Civ games.

[Mardoc]

So true. The nice thing about this game is that I don't have to talk anyone into anything, however.

I'll give it some thought, though. In all seriousness, though, I'm in 4 games at this point, so if I joined and was a wolf, I have no idea how I'd find the time for it. There are limits to even my free time.

I have the feeling that your reputation might help with persuasion, though. Unlike, ahem, some of us (*whistles innocently*) you have a history of making the right call, even if it's for hard to explain reasons.

Besides, things are calming down in FFH PBEM 7 now that we've finally settled that Remnants/Dragon Bones/Ygg site you found. . And I suspect you'll find that PBEM 11 doesn't exactly consume all your time either, with our current pace (although there I hope I'm wrong).

Also, while I have no idea how internet Werewolf works.

Rules wise, it's fairly simple to explain, and I'd be happy to do so if you're interested and Gaspar doesn't mind too much the threadjack. In terms of actually picking out wolves, I'm pretty hopeless, but in theory it's the same as in person werewolf/mafia - you look for stuff out of character, signs of collusion, etc.

[Gaspar]

As someone who cares about micro as well, I'm starting to think they're overrated. They're of no use coming up with decisions, they're only of use to test and refine those decisions. You still need a good deal of experience and a good feel for the game anyway (alternatively I have neither and that's why mine don't seem to work!).

I'd like to think you're right, and I believe your description applies to my play style as well (I am slightly more organized than I appear in my games to this point,) but the evidence strongly points to the contrary. Just from lurking games here, the games where the players laid out strong, coherent micro plans they've ended up running away with the game. Not to say you can't win without it, but its hard to beat someone who is doing it if you're not. If nothing else, it contributes to greater focus, which is generally the dividing line between good Civ players and the best ones. The dividing line between mediocre and good is probably more along the lines of understanding the game (i.e. using your food, etc.)

Also, while I have no idea how internet Werewolf works. I mean, I've done okay at Mafia with RL friends, but I have no idea how the rules work and I have zero experience with diplomacy-style Civ games.

I have the feeling that your reputation might help with persuasion, though. Unlike, ahem, some of us (*whistles innocently*) you have a history of making the right call, even if it's for hard to explain reasons.

Eh, my reputation is a matter entirely for debate. If you'll recall the WW2 lurker thread, I believe my reputation is that I do quite well when I have the answers in front of me. I, of course, know that this is very much my skill set, but its not precisely something I can prove, or for that matter, something I'm precisely interested in proving.

As an aside, for those who do believe in my honesty, it allows my reputation to grow unchallenged. In truth, I am a decent werewolf player. By not playing, it makes it look like I'm an excellent werewolf player.

Besides, things are calming down in FFH PBEM 7 now that we've finally settled that Remnants/Dragon Bones/Ygg site you found. . And I suspect you'll find that PBEM 11 doesn't exactly consume all your time either, with our current pace (although there I hope I'm wrong).

Yeah, it was fortuitous that I was able to make that my capital simply by moving my settler SE-SE. It was also convenient that Ravus accidentally gave me Beastmasters instead of Scouts and I've already found Sheaim borders. You're probably right about PBEM11, but necessarily, it is more important that I give the Civ games more attention, since people are signing away a year of their lives to play them, as opposed to werewolf games which are over in a matter of weeks.

Rules wise, it's fairly simple to explain, and I'd be happy to do so if you're interested and Gaspar doesn't mind too much the threadjack. In terms of actually picking out wolves, I'm pretty hopeless, but in theory it's the same as in person werewolf/mafia - you look for stuff out of character, signs of collusion, etc.

I believe the threadjack has already occurred. But yeah, its basically an exercise in reading comprehension, controlling your emotions and persuasive writing. Its a lot of fun and a lot of frustration. I've never actually played real life werewolf/mafia, but I'd imagine its much easier, since its much harder to lie to someones face than on an internet forum. The plus side is we all got to know each other a bit, and so its easier to tell when someone is lying when they already have an established tone/persona.

Seriously, Mardoc, you should know by now you guys can talk about anything in here if you're jacking up my post count.

[Mardoc]

Seriously, Mardoc, you should know by now you guys can talk about anything in here if you're jacking up my post count.

Yes, but you still haven't signed up for my game . Edit: wow, I can persuade people after all! Welcome aboard.

Would it help any to know that Zakalwe's going to be a bard again? Or that novice is going to be an innkeeper's daughter (if you know what I mean)?

[Gaspar]

Well, after that brief werewolf interlude which will surely result only in your collective disappointment in my skills, we are still playing a game of Civ here, after all.

The event log tells me scooter converted to Judaism. I'm guessing he did this to get cultural expansion in the holy city. Its always nice to be spiritual.



Founded by Sojourner Truth in I Feel Fine, we now have a shrine, and yet another source of Prophet GPP. This shaves the time for the next prophet down to 27 turns. Not bad for no specialists. I'm leaning heavily towards using my next two prophets to bulb Theology and Civil Service, but we have time before that becomes a relevant conversation piece. It also shaves in half my GPT deficit at 100% research, from 4 to 2, so I'll get an additional two turns of 100% research before having to save gold again. This means I can get Writing in and start on Maths before saving gold. Practically, I might just save gold for a turn after Writing comes in anyway.

I Feel Fine grows to size 5 next turn, at which point we'll swap from Holkan to another worker. The worker in 99 Luftballons gets slaved this turn, we'll overflow to a Forge which it will regrow on while working cottages, before repeating the pattern when it reaches size 4 again, conveniently just about the time the Forge will complete, for full benefit on the next whip. Apocalypse Pls switches to working the now completed plains copper mine, which will produce the first Work Boat in 3 though delaying growth. That boat will net the fish, which the city will work while building a 2nd WB. After the 2nd work boat comes online, it will grow to size 4 before slaving its granary. What's the take away here?



At EOT we got the expected free religion spread to Apocalypse Pls. This, combined with the whip, reduces expenses to 0, so we're currently breaking even at 100% science. Anyway, here's what the demos look like after that excitement.



TL;DR: Cheap forges rock.

[Gaspar]

Your Dark Lordship, Pharaoh Sandover,

No problem, hope all goes well with whatever's keeping you occupied (Exams, I'd guess, given the timing.)

Just wanted to drop you a quick line to let you know I'll have writing shortly, so we can get some trade route action going as soon as we get that hooked up. I should personally be able to get a road connected to that river in ~5 turns. No rush, of course, my 3 city empire is relatively affordable right now, but I thought it pertinent to let you know.

Prophet Gaspar

Sent that nothing message off to Sandover in response to his. I'd like it if his warrior stopped hanging outside 99 Luftballons, if it fortifies on the hill, I might just send over the soon to be completed Holkan to threaten it just to prove a point. Sandover I think likes it if you whip it out every now and again.