[54 Spoilers] Nothing to see here! Miguelito and Rusten's max score game

[Miguelito]

Whoa, looks like a tough one to me.

So, we're looking at a 12t worker,  which means after 13 we need AH ready. Can someone tell me how tech costs are modified on a standard sized map? I can look it up only tonight,  but I vaguely remember from 49 that first column techs costed 54b, so that would be a factor of 1.35? So, AH at 135 beakers, 113 raw with one prereq, or 97 with both. Including the free beaker, we'll research with 12 bpt, 13 with Mysticism.
So in fact, with Mysticism we shouldn't actually need Hunting nor Agri, if my tech cost assumption is correct (ofc I'll double check before committing to a pick). But without Myst we're one turn short, interesting.


If we need more research,  we could also pick India and have a 14t worker (ofc that comes with Myst so if my calculus is correct it wouldn't be needed)

Wheel would be nice to have to get a road towards the pig while the worker is moving, as otherwise crossing those hills/forest could always be a bit messy for the micro.

Do we go through Hunting or Agri (or both,  if we have at least one of them at the start)?
- Hunting makes the scout invulnerable vs animals,  which is huge I feel.  Also likely that there's an early happy resource close by.
- Agri might not be immediately useful as we don't need a fast and might not for the second city either. We will need it somewhat soon for Pottery though,  assuming we don't build the second city for seafood and pig sharing.
--> so right now I think Hunting has priority.  We have 4 turns to scout before committing to a tech, right?  Also if we start with either we can research the other and still get AH in time.

Also,  if we have to research something before AH, does that delay BW too much in turn? (Say,  if we start bordering  Zulu)

So,  assuming I'm correct in my assumptions, civ list:
- Persia (H/A) - I don't really like the uniques
- Zulu (H/A) - nice uniques, but wants AGG pretty strongly. Do we want that?
- Khmer (H/M) - Mining is good,  Ballistaphant has str 8, UB is situational even with EXP.
- Mongolia (H/W) - excellent techs,  good with CHM (And Cyrus), but with 90-100 tiles per player the map might be too large for Keshiks?
- Byzantium (M/W) - should barely work techwise (wheel is good), unnerfed UU!!, UB buffed to still be rather useless. Game plan rather evident for everybody.
- Egypt (A/W) - good techs, great UU but probably too early,  early prophet could be nice if SPI (Brennus?)

Discarded: India (FW not terribly useful here), Vikings, Arabia,  China, Maya, NA, France


Now, which traits are good here?
- the cap doesn't have terrible amounts of food,  which limits CHM somewhat, but should still be good
- not that many forests,  but with the tundra nearby there should be no PB49 jungle hell (also not piggy in the middle again). Also just two hills.  I'm unsure whether IMP will work here
- Cheap granary seems appealing,  but as said that's nearly always true for me.
- wine and SPI go well together?
- that river seems to hold more flood plains for a 2nd or 3rd city,  good for FIN? We might not get that much coast though
-PRO would likely require an early road,  as settling on the river doesn't share food and may be on top of FP. Well we will want the early trade connection anyways,  but moreso with PRO



We're third in pick order, and naufragar eccentrically picked Spain first (also tells me that these starts are very much not mirrored ), so we likely can choose on half freely, but have to be flexible.

Possible combinations that I'm seeing:
1 Shaka or Boudicca or Ragnar of Zulu (civ first)
2 Washington or João of Khmer (civ)
3 Cyrus of Byzantium or Mongolia (leader)
4 Justinian or Charlie or Churchill or Cyrus of Byzantium (civ)  
5 Brennus or Izzy or Justinian of Egypt

How would you rate those,  assuming they're technologically viable?


Could a kind lurker please confirm or deny my assumptions about tech costs?


Cross post with Rusten, but that was also about tech cost.

[Rusten]

I think the Cataphract is nerfed to 11 strength, but keeping first strike immunity. At least that's what I remember reading in the old 1.3 log. You should check this ingame. 3rd pick Byzantium is a little wasteful perhaps, but in the end you should just pick something you want to play.

Personally I'm bored of the zulu for instance, but that makes little difference to me when lurking so they all seem viable to me.

Khmer seems really strong to me. It's the type of UU that I like to go for in that it doesn't require a specific rush or anything to work. You can weave it into your plans based on map/neighbours. It doesn't require ivoey, right? We're guaranteed to have it?

Being so early in the snake Khmer would be my recommendation. You only mentioned exp leaders, but I don't think that's needed. The UB is not what mattets. Even Cyrus of Khmer seems fine to me. It's a leader that will first expand and grow and then prepare for war, usually. Initially I coupled this with knighs, but it also works nicely with elephants.

Don't remember the tech cost formula.

Hard for me to quote sections of posts on mobile so these might get a little messy. If I miss an important question just repeat it. I'm sure I forgot something.

[Miguelito]

Cataphract is explicitly back to base in 1.4 (str 12, does suffer first strikes)
Does that change your assessment? What do you think of the other listed leaders for Byzantium?

Thoughts about SPI and Egypt, Mongols?

I'm not so hot on Zulu either, but included them because Agri/Hunting. Khmer is strong for sure, got picked in both rubbing CtH games as well. You're correct that the UB doesn't really matter. Afaik Phants require either ivory OR iron.

On 90-100 tiles per player, would you rather go to war at Keshiks, Ballistaphants, or Cataphracts?

[Rusten]

12 strength cataphracts always. It definitely changes my assessment! Myst is even a decent tech now. Just pick Byzantium and work out the rest on the way back. 

Mongolia I like a lot, Egypt I like, but it's a little transparent. Player pool in this game is fairly green though, do Egypt can still get a lot done.

Spiritual is my favourite trait and ýou'll have my blessing if you pick it. But I think it needs a production boost alongside it. As much as I like CtH charismatic I'm not overly sold on Brennus for instance. I'd go to a Justinian or Isabella first.

[Miguelito]

I'll do a test run with Byzantium tonight to confirm that we indeed have AH the turn the worker is on the pig, then lock it in (we're up, Ruff just picked Hannibal, good one I think).

Then when it comes back Justin or Cyrus, or if those are taken we'll see (I think PRO makes more sense than FIN or EXP, as Byzantium will take some time to get to Pottery). Brennus I agree is risky if you don't get an early boost from the civ. Just noticed though that CHM really benefits from a Myst start (more of an argument in favour of Cyrus than Brennus)

[Rusten]

Just to quickly compare Egypt and Byzantium: Yes, they're both a little transparent in terms of strategy, but one key difference to me is that Egypt relies on catching your opponent unaware or good battles/tactics, whereas cataphracts are almost unstoppable even if you see them coming.

Doesn't mean that you can't go to war earlier though if there's an opportune moment. But opportune moments don't need to rely on a UU -- the base unit of whichever era you're in will do.

Edit: Cataphracts just changes the game and provide you with a framework to build around. Even if the worker ends up idling on the pig I'd be tempted to pick it.

[Miguelito]

Edit: Cataphracts just changes the game and provide you with a framework to build around. Even if the worker ends up idling on the pig I'd be tempted to pick it.

I miscalculated.  the beakers get rounded down every turn, so we end up 2 short on t13, meaning the worker gets to put 1t into a probably useless road.

I'll contemplate it. we're losing 3 food, and then again 2 from the second pasture (or 1f1h, depends on perspective  :crazyeye: ). If my excel is correct,  that means growth to size 2 is delayed, not to size 3, but again to size 4, assuming we grow that far before a second worker or the settler. there's a case for going for a second worker while we research BW, as besides the pastures there are no really good tiles to work before cottages (mines are fine for the IMP settler pump, but again,  they need worker turns). With two workers we could then get settlers out fast on whips, chops, and mines.

So I guess yes,  letting the worker idle one turn delays pretty much everything a turn,  but that might still be ok. Alternative is Khmer.

Envisioned tech path is Hunting->AH->Mining->BW, then Pottery through Agri or Fishing,  depending on 2nd city site , or maybe Polytheism/Meditation,  in particular if we don't need a new food tech for the 2nd city.

[Rusten]

Gtg shortly, but I wouldn't mind the 1 idle turn. We also gain some commerce from myst that we won't have if we pick Khmer.

But follow your heart, I might not be around until tomorrow and couldn't read your full post in detail.

[Rusten]

Can't we avoid the beaker rounding by not selecting a tech the first 5 turns too?

[Miguelito]

Can't we avoid the beaker rounding by not selecting a tech the first 5 turns too?

I have no idea how that works but I'll try it out in the sandbox. But I guess no, because the first 5 turns we're researching Hunting with no prereq, hence no rounding.