[SPOILERS] Ceiliazul and Timski go To War: Brennus of Spain

[oledavy]

Stele replaces Monument, but only to grant +25% to culture - and how important is culture in an always war multiplayer game?

If anything, I would argue that culture is more important in an AW setting. Cultural defenses are extremely vital, not to mention the visibility on incoming enemy attacks you get from popping borders. Without a way to negotiate for land, you want any advantage you can muster to seize it yourself.

Doesn't change the fact that the stele is complete crap

Don't over-think the AW setting though, just think of it as a normal online game of civ MP. You're still going to want to focus on economy and the farmer's gambit as long as possible, and then hit hard with muskets, conquistadors and triple-promoted catapults/trebuchets when the time comes. In the meantime, keep just enough military to prevent anyone from thinking you too juicy of a target and you'll be fine. Players tend to play AW more conservatively if anything (compare that to the extreme aggression of Always Peace Games).

[plako]

Your starting area. In final editing something minor might change.

[Ceiliazul]

Your starting area. In final editing something minor might change.

Alright! Fish, and a Pl-hill start. I don't see any chance of moving the settler! Also hunting and Agri will be early priorities.

Warrior moves NE for max visibility.

Those mountain borders sure are suspicious, and I see ice blocking the sea. Early wild guess: our capitals are in the center of a hub... We'll know as soon as borders expand, we might get to see beyond that mountain range.

Could the other capitals be literally 6 tiles from each other??

Also stonehenge competition increased with Hannibal on the board. Oh boy...

[timski]

Interesting to note the ice in the south-west. That "polar" ice doesn't fit neatly with what looks like grassland in the south-east. Ergo this is likely a heavily edited map, where seeing tundra and ice does not define our position in the world. A 5-segment central island is certainly possible - I guess we'll find out very quickly, since one of those mountains will fall inside the second ring of the first city, which would give us sight on any other Civ beyond the mountains.

Agreed that there is little scope for moving. Not only is there no sight of anything decent on the horizon, but if we do move, it would have to be by a considerable distance, or likely orphan many of the resources we do see.

Settling in place gives us a plains hill to speed up the start and a rather defensible corner, plus getting all the resources we see online should be straightforward (Fishing is even useful). A 3-food site surely suits the food strategy discussed. The weaknesses are a lack of chopping potential, rather a lot of water, and clearly being backed into a corner, with all expansion in one direction, increasing maintenance.

The 3 food resources throw up an interesting choice: Dry rice is actually the worse tile (initially 4/0/0 improved), vs Deer (4/1/0), vs Fish (5/0/0). A case when Hunting research trumps Agriculture? Likewise, opening with a Work Boat rather than a Worker has potential. A Work Boat would get our first food improved 3-4 turns (roughly) ahead of the first possible Worker improvement, potentially also allowing us to grow straight to 2 population. Work Boat first also creates some flexibility on research, since there is no need to rush a Worker tech. Maybe even going straight for Meditation - or is that too insane?

Edit: Opening with a Work Boat and Meditation is surprisingly neat (assuming Quick speed and Prince):

T1: Settle in place. Build Work Boat. Tech Meditation.
T7: Growth to size 2. Built Work Boat and improve Fish. Build Worker. Meditation completes, Buddhism founded (assumed). Tech Hunting.
T10: Hunting completes. Tech Agriculture.
T12: Built Worker, who starts to improve Deer. Build Warrior (or maybe a Scout) while growing to size 3.
T14: Deer improved.
T15: Growth to size 3. Agriculture completes. Worker moves towards Rice, potentially putting 1 turned into a farm 1N of the capital.

Thereafter is vaguer, depending a lot on what Scouting reveals, how high a priority we try to give chopping Stonehenge, and so forth. One can grow to size 5 by turn 19, before Workers/Settlers, or halt growth at size 3. The Rice won't be improved until turn 20, and hence the earliest the Silver mine improvement can start is turn 23, so Mining can be delayed for up to 8 turns (perhaps Animal Husbandry, or Wheel and Archery).

[Ceiliazul]

If those mountains really are spokes, they lead to a central point only a few tiles away... and their odd arrangement isn't too far from 72 degrees. Like you said, we'll know for sure at 2nd ring borders.

Fish is definitely the way to go, my inital take is 5t working the deer and then immediatey swap to worker (yes at size 1)... I'll have a sim before t0 this time, something I should have done in 25g.

I agree Timski, we have a hunting-over-agri start here. Initial tech ideas: mining, hunting, BW, religion. I'll have to sim agri, but gut feeling is get it after starting 'Henge. A tech and 4 worker turns is too expensive for a stinkin slice of bread. Even with massive Spanish unemployment!

[Ceiliazul]

A tech and 4 worker turns is too expensive for a stinkin slice of bread. Even with massive Spanish unemployment!

Theme Idea: things to do when you're not working (or, support services for those so affected.) Perhaps Capital named "Civ"??

[timski]

On my quick sim (check the setup, I may have made errors), the Work Boat took 7 turns if working the unimproved Deer throughout, or 6 turns if switching to the forest plains hill once the borders pop. 1 turn a reasonable trade-off for an extra pair of hands?

[timski]

Initial tech ideas: mining, hunting, BW, religion. I'll have to sim agri, but gut feeling is get it after starting 'Henge.

So roughly, teching Mining - Hunting - Bronze Working, building Work Boat (I'm still assuming while growing to size 2) - Worker - Warrior - slaved Worker - overflowing into Stonehenge, then chopping out the remainder of Stonehenge by turn 24 (edit: by slaving the Worker on its final production turn, and chopping 3 forests). Looks like a religion after Bronze Working, but before Agriculture, would delay Agriculture too long to keep the Workers productive. Skipping the second Worker would resolve that, but only by making the Stonehenge chops more risky.

[Ceiliazul]

On my quick sim (check the setup, I may have made errors), the Work Boat took 7 turns if working the unimproved Deer throughout, or 6 turns if switching to the forest plains hill once the borders pop. 1 turn a reasonable trade-off for an extra pair of hands?

Is the sim on quick? boat should be 20h, right?

I'm loving feedback though. I've been away from civ all day, will check your sim directly tonight.

[timski]

Is the sim on quick? boat should be 20h, right?

Correct: Capital 2H + Deer 1H = 7 turns with 1 overflow. Am I missing something?

If we naively assume somewhat mirrored starts, I don't see how anyone can beat us to Stonehenge by turn 24: Dazed lacks all food-related techs. Hammurabi needs Mysticism instead of Hunting, but requires a turn of Anarchy to slave, and (IMHO) isn't likely to prioritise Stonehenge anyway. Commodore has to do everything we do, plus tech Mysticism, which would still leave them at least a turn behind completing Stonehenge even at half cost.

Gut feeling is that we can risk losing a religion (which looks likely if Agriculture follows Bronze Working, probably in turn followed by at least the Wheel before a religion) to Dazed (who is most likely to also go for an early religion), then we still have a decent chance of picking up one of the other early religions, so all is not lost.