12:23 PM me: theory/timing question
12:24 PM I noticed that in PBEM 29, cat/slow set out with the plan for this sort of pyramid rush:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy...ambits.php
would a plan like this, if one of them chose to implement it, be powerful enough to a run of my own for the 'Mids?
1:52 PM Commodore: Hum
1:53 PM A lot of the question depends on how close stone is, and how hard they push for it.
1:54 PM The Oracle is pretty key to the plan, and the nice thing for, say, an Ind player like Louis is that you have two chances to beat it, once by beating them to Oracle, and a second time by beating them to the 'mids.
1:55 PM You want to Oracle MC anyway for the awesome cheap forges that Ind gets.
________________________________________ 8 minutes
2:03 PM Commodore: One thing I do think I like your instincts on though is that between the two of them, Catwalk and Sian have built or tried to build the 'mids every single game.
So either by picking India or by Bismarck/Peter, I expect them to try it.
________________________________________ 7 minutes
2:11 PM Commodore: And it occurs to me we should really post this conversation to the thread for lurker edification.
2:14 PM me: okay, I can do a copy-pasta. I'd like to wait until I at least get a sense of what I'm working with though. I don't see the point in posting it if I end up coming out with Lincoln of Japan after all
Commodore: Well, we're picking blind.
2:15 PM If Azza picks India, moot point maybe
me: Exactly, I'd like to make sure that doesn't happen
If he doesn't, then I'll take India, and even if some of the nicer leaders for me are taken, I'll still get someone at least relevant enough
2:16 PM I think once I know I'll at least get India I'll go ahead and flesh out the strategy part on there
hopefully that'll happen soon
whenever Azza get's to it I suppose.
2:17 PM Commodore: Yeah
2:18 PM Thing is, Seven's commentary aside, the choice here really is Fin -> cottage economy, or anything else -> specialist economy.
2:19 PM Which means that if N+1 go for the specialist economy, then N people are getting burned.
me: yeah. And will hate each other the whole game
and Mister top N will probably get the target on his head
hmmmm.
2:20 PM maybe it's better to go Fin and not risk getting that ire when we have a good group of proven Mids rushers
well, actually Sian and Cat are teaming so they're the only main threat to do that probably.
2:21 PM Which means I can already foresee us being at odds no matter what, and it might be good to try and rush it myself to keep them from getting it
But then they'll hate me forever :D
2:23 PM I think what it comes down to is which is most valuable: going for a Mids rush myself and working them specialist economies, and in the process solidifying a long term enemy in Sianwalk, or just saying "screw it" and go FIN of some flavor and not making any enemies as easily as the 1st. Maybe something with EXP, but FIN seems to still be stronger.
2:25 PM I wished I picked after them to better see their strategy than try to guess it :P
2:26 PM Commodore: Yeah, I don't like going early in snake picks.
There is a hybrid path
2:27 PM Mr. Cupac is Fin/Ind, probably the second strongest leader after Willie on the table.
me: hmmm...
2:28 PM Commodore: You could pick him, do a standard cottage/Fin strategy, but also ensure that the 'mids are the only wonder they sweep.
me: which would mess with them and allow me to be prepared for whatever they end up doing.
2:29 PM Commodore: Early Stonehenge would be important there, which they'd be threatening for, and then you still want Oracle, which slows you down.
But it means they can't relax on wonder races.
me: and even if I lose I have FIN to fall back on
2:30 PM Commodore: Depending on how the map is, the Oracle -> MC-> Colossus thing might be kind of amazing.
If it's a lakes map, that's a frickton of coastal tiles but a low need for Astronomy, which is the Colossus trap.
2:31 PM Fin + Colossus is a whopping 4-commerce for each coastal/lake tile.
me: Beautiful.
2:32 PM I think I'm being sold on HC a bit here
the thing is I won't have the India FW bonus
but this way I can play to my opponents better with having IND
and having FIN to fall back on/utilize with the wonders
2:33 PM Commodore: Well, if you don't take India, I bet they will.
And India is a freaking' hardcore bonus in wonder races.
me: yeah.
2:34 PM I can't just ask them to switch pick slots could I? >_>
I kid. but yeah, India isn't fun to just see go away if I don't get it.
Commodore: Heh
Right, then they get the luxury of India/Ind, which comes full circle.
2:35 PM me: Which I'd like to have, so yeah.
Commodore: I kind of hope Azza picks it, he seems less a threat.
me: I agree. We need someone to want to be a lurker for him and give him that suggestion >_>
Commodore: Difficult as it is, I really like this ban, makes for really interesting choices.
2:36 PM me: mmhmm. I feel like it's a lot better than just saying no to all of it.
Commodore: Exactly.
2:37 PM me: So, in summary, we came into this discussion with "well we need to see azza's pick". and we're leaving with "well we need to see azza's pick"
congratulations on such a productive exchange
Commodore: Although it does mean you'll never see a pick without one of those four.
Heh, sorry.
2:38 PM Now we know why we need to see Azza's pick.
me: Ha, it's all good
I have a better knowledge of why it's important to know his pick
yeah, that. :P
I wonder what all the lurkers are going to think of this conversation when I post it.
Hi lurkers!
2:39 PM breaking the 4th wall like a boss
2:40 PM Commodore: Rar (editor's note: I assume this is a bear noise?)
2:42 PM me: It's also fun how in PBEM 29 slowcheetah seems just as happy about a mids rush as cat
so he might go that direction too
again, nothing to worry about until the picks have gone by
2:44 PM Commodore: I'll laugh if everyone tries to 'mids rush.
2:45 PM Surely someone will take Fin, it's a boss trait and there are awesome civs open even with Inca/India out.
Egypt or China would be excellent.
2:46 PM me: Yeah. I think I am leaning more towards HC, cause I'll still be competitive for wonders, and I won't be reliant on a Mid's race
Commodore: HC is pretty darned strong.
me: because confidence aside, I don't trust my play enough to ensure I could come up with that against a determined Sian/Cat
2:47 PM Commodore: Well, Sian is decent at micro.
me: And HC is very strong, and I can mess with wonder plans while moneying my way up the ladder.
Commodore: It's his metagame that sucks.
Yup
me: I feel like while it might not have the most raw power possible for a mid's rush or else wise, it seems to be the best choice for me from what I can tell.
2:48 PM Commodore: So probably want to cottage early and often at first, makes one of the Ag/Wheel civs best.
Ottomans are overrated.
me: ha, I went to go check who that'd be, and CivFanatics is down
:P
2:49 PM which is weird since T Hawk fixed it to not go down like that on RB anymore
2:50 PM Commodore: Well, two different site hosts and all.
me: Yeah, I meant the experience of it
not implying any connection
2:51 PM Commodore: Off the top of my head, Egypt, Ottomans, France, Sumeria, Babylon
2:52 PM me: Hmmm.
Egypt is good, but idk if I want to risk my reputation on trying to War Chariot rush someone
though
I can use the threat of it to keep people in line
2:53 PM If necessary
to keep people off of me while I do my building up
2:54 PM Commodore: Yeah, the threat alone is nice.
Obelisk isn't a biggie, but it helps get out a prophet for a shrine, not bad at all.
me: very true
2:55 PM Commodore: Ottomen are fine, very very vanilla.
France is odd, Musketeers are awesome but practically require you to head for a Gunpowder/MilTrad beeline.
2:56 PM Salon is a non-factor, really.
Sumer, as discussed, is a bit lackluster.
The cheaper courthouse is nice, but as early as it comes it's not needed.
2:57 PM Vultures aren't anything notable.
2:58 PM Babylonian bowmen are nice, but having to tech archery is annoying, and the UB might as well not exist.
2:59 PM me: What exactly is the Obelisk bonus again?.
3:00 PM Commodore: A priest slot
*priest
3:01 PM Not a big deal, but like I said, makes that shrine easier.
Building Stonehenge would be nice as HC
me: true
it really would
Commodore: Manage that, and you have half-Creative for free.
me: though if I beeline for that, it will be harder to head for oracle as well
3:02 PM which would delay my MC
but, with other INDs I probably won't be able to get them all anyways :P
Commodore: Yeah
Plus, (full circle warning!) India
3:03 PM Really, the nice thing about HC is it will force the Indians to get Ind to be sure about the races.
me: and lock them into that as opposed to other combos they might want
Commodore: Otherwise, they could relax about the fast worker and take something like Pericles.
Exactly.
3:04 PM Locks them out of Phi entirely, actually, thanks Firaxis for that!
me: There's no IND/PHI?
Commodore: Yup
3:05 PM Thank goodness.
me: hallelujah chorus
so best case we're looking at, is Azza takes India
worst case is he takes HC?
Commodore: Yes!
me: :P
Commodore: Eh
That's not a terrible worst case.
me: no, but unfortunate at the least
3:06 PM Commodore: "I had to take Willem" won't garner you much sympathy.
3:07 PM Nor, really, is "I had to take India"
3:08 PM me: Yeah.
Ha, where's the balance between being powerful and not attracting attention? I mean, I want to remain the newb who probably doesn't know what he's doing
Maybe my theme should be circus performers balancing on a wire
3:09 PM Commodore: Heheh, internal theme only.
me: since I still have the 1st game bonus of being an unknown
Commodore: Yeah
me: I better use it wisely :D My large amount of excitable writings I'm sure will follow will ruin that in the future
3:13 PM Commodore: Yeah, it's a good first advantage.
Me as your dedlurker might kind of hurt the purity of your newbie status.
3:14 PM I'll avoid posting anything diplomatic, might help.
3:15 PM I'm curious how the Catwalk/Sian team will do.
Catwalk will sell you his soul for $1 and a smile.
Sian will enrage anyone
me: Ha, yeah don't mess things up for me
I'll handle all diplo no problem, you can be more of a mechanics/player knowledge teammate.
and yeah, such a lovely couple those two
3:16 PM standard operating procedure- never trust the two of them, no good reason to.
Commodore: Heh.
I lay better-than-even odds on Sian blowing up at Catwalk more than once.
3:17 PM me: and that doesn't mean I can't work with them, just always being wary. and that'd be nice :D
I feel like they'll still be the strongest competition overall
maybe if I can subtly direct slowcheetah or Azza to go make sure they don't get too powerful
after all
3:18 PM we're the noobs of the game, we got to work together against the big scary monster
which is true. I won't lie there, I don't like lying to peeps, ruins my rep and I want to be trustworthy. but that doesn't mean I can't use situations to my advantage
3:19 PM Commodore: Well, I'd think Slowcheeta can win it.
me: plus maybe Azza will be bloodthirsty after just getting knocked from PB7 so early
Commodore: It's hard, his solo game ended early.
me: what has slow done besides 29 w/ Cat?
Commodore: 28, but that game ended fast.
3:20 PM Had a couple slow players (not Sian or Slowcheeta, thankfully.
me: good. slow players = bad
3:21 PM Commodore: Right
3:22 PM Slowcheeta seems like about as bog standard a "normal" player as you'll get, actually.
3:24 PM He picked Ramesses of China in 28
So yeah, wonders ho!
me: Yeah...
ha
3:25 PM maybe FIN will be a minority? if such a thing were even possible?
Commodore: Well, these guys are green, but all have played for a wee bit
Fin bans have been all the rage the last while.
3:27 PM I agree, more and more HC or Willie looks like the better option.
Much as fast workers are hard to not pick.
3:28 PM me: They are really hard, they're so pretty
But, it seems good to just go ahead and get that FIN
Unless Azza gets him I'm feeling pretty set on HC
3:29 PM well.... at least kind of set.
cause if slow attempts an IND build as well, then I'm not needing to be the competition for wonders to slow down CatSian, and I could go Willie....
3:31 PM No, I should just stick with HC, he's a solid choice and at the least, them forges plus wonders, especially if I get Stonehenge
3:32 PM Commodore: Yeah
3:33 PM Stonehenge and GLH or Oracle and Colossus, mostly likely, hard to manage a sweep.
3:34 PM me: yeah I'm not going to hope for the sweep
3:35 PM Commodore: Although ole' soft touch Catwalk would agree in a heartbeat if you agreed to not contest the 'mids, neither Sian nor Slowcheeta is that easy.
me: Well then I hope catwalk is the main diplo force for his team
Commodore: Oracle isn't a bad direction, really, it does generally come with a religion.
Culture isn't that hard.
3:36 PM me: Haha, it won't matter too much though with the open diplomacy that everyone else was keen on :P
that's going to be interesting.
It'll require a lot more diplo skills than usual
Commodore: Yeah, ought to be fun
Or funny.
me: both :D
3:37 PM Is there a book called "how to say something without saying it"?
a refresher course would be helpful
3:38 PM Commodore: Heh
________________________________________
6:00 PM Commodore: Consider Byzantium for 33?
6:01 PM me: cataphract crusades?
Commodore: Aye
The Wheel/Myst isn't bad for 'henge or Oracle gambits.
6:02 PM Mali's Mining/Wheel is okay too.
me: what will be the downside of switching out Myst for Ag?
Commodore: Well, slower Pottery
6:03 PM Not terrible for non-Exp, but still annoying if there are flood plains.
6:04 PM Generally, you'll pop out a worker after Ag is done, so no harm if you have a grain start.
If your main food is AH, though, you're in trouble.
6:05 PM me: hmmm
6:06 PM Commodore: Just an aside, really, UUs are nice and all, but a solid economy is the best.
me: yeah, I was going to say I'd rather stick back with one of the wheel/ag ones
6:07 PM Egypt is my top choice at the moment
Commodore: Agr/Wheel France has a draftable two-mover, for that matter...smaller window than a 'phract stack, but still strong.
Yup, Egypt is always a good choice.
War chariots, heck, you don't even need to "rush"
6:08 PM Just build a pair and you might get a kill/good deal anyway.
me: exactly. I'm not worried about having to rush somebody. What I'll do is build a few to send at someone, and either catch them with their pants down or get a deal from them in exchange for goodies.
6:09 PM nothing too heavy or committal, I don't need to distract too much from my building
Commodore: Exactly.
me: just enough to tell people not to mess with me
and secure me peace to build up and get really scary
Commodore: If they are prepared, you can just wave "hi" and move on, not having lost anything.
me: yup
6:11 PM Commodore: What? Those chariots? Nope, needed a 2-mover to scout.
me: yeah, and I had a scout but it got scared off by barbs, I needed something that wouldn't get bear ambushed
6:12 PM doesn't everyone build chariots to explore on here? I always do so in my single player games so my scouting doesn't die.
:evil evil evil:
6:13 PM I'm just innocent and new.....
Commodore: Oops? No barbs? Well curse my newbie hide.
6:14 PM me: Oh that's the setting? well dang. guess I can build more scouts again!
okay that sounds more contrived, since I did vote on no barbs. :P
though I could have "forgot for a turn or two"
I wonder if we're going to have anyone C&Ding
6:15 PM Commodore: Eh, Sian kind of looks
me: if my story would be checked against power graphs
Commodore: Azza and Slowcheeta ought to be good.
me: yeah
6:16 PM honestly, say I got into a situation where I had a chance to knock out azza, I'm not sure how beneficial it would be for me to put much effort into say wiping him out as opposed to keeping him alive and using him for my purposes
but then that's not a good kill kill kill attitude :P
6:17 PM Commodore: Well, making a quiet vassal can be good.
Making a public vassal might be a wee bit bad.
me: how would I do so quietly
?
Commodore: No idea
me: stupid open diplo
6:22 PM I think it'll be just as much fun throwing discord into the diplomacy thread as actual bargaining
6:23 PM Commodore: The value: Entertainment
me: say, it works out like we think, and I have IND, as well as Sianwalk and slowcheetah
I wait a few turns into the game
Commodore: Also, Brandon will be Pro most likely.
me: and then: "Hey everybody, I was thinking about building Pyramids, what kind of deals would you like to strike so that I can get it?"
6:24 PM watch Sianwalk and cheetah squirm if they're both ind and wanting to go for it, perhaps afraid to spill their plans for that, but not able to just leave me silent in case I work out a deal with the other one
6:25 PM Commodore: Heh
me: or at the least, their telling silence allowing me to post condemning things towards them for not even being able to respond to a serious question
Commodore: Then ignore them.
Then might make the obvious objection that you ought not run specialists.
6:26 PM me: why not? isn't combining specialists with FIN a strong option? You're just trying to mess me up off my game plan.
gah that was weak. I need to work on my finangling.
6:27 PM Commodore: Yeah. Decent start.
Oh, how about "I need it for Police State"
That's a scary answer.
6:28 PM me: Ha, police state'd war chariots
Commodore: +25% hammers on whips!
6:29 PM me: ooooh. slaving police state
maybe I'll just do that anyways ;P
Commodore: Heheh
6:30 PM If you have stone, why not?
9:13 PM me: nooooooooooo
He picked HC
TT o TT
9:14 PM Commodore: Noooooooooooooo
me: I knew it would happen.
9:15 PM so um.....
new plan
do something else.
:P
I'm kind of feeling FIN, since that's someone ELSE that's going the way of INDustrious
9:16 PM too many CAPS
Commodore: Willem is 100% the best leader available.
9:17 PM me: Definitely. Creative is certainly nothing to scoff at.
It's so.... cliché though. And everyone's going to be "pooh, you picked Willem. Like we didn't see that coming"
though I shouldn't metagame the leader pick too much\
9:18 PM Commodore: Well, Mansa is also in the ballpark.
9:19 PM me: True. He wouldn't be bad, but Willem is just better. Dem half price libraries aren't nothing to scoff at
with Fin, I'll be rolling in a gold mine
9:20 PM Commodore: Yeah, 100% agree.
me: *science mine at that
mmkay, predictable pick being claimed
Commodore: Last shot at Inca.
9:22 PM me: Ha, nope, Willem is our best friend today
Commodore: Yeah
9:23 PM He's awesome, now let's contemplate civs and kill Azza.
9:24 PM me: Oooh, good idea!
not seeing any UBs that are super wonderful with Creative
9:25 PM Commodore: Eh, Maya isn't bad.
Ball courts are fun.
But Mysticism isn't all that needed with your free culture.
9:29 PM Really, your best bet is either China (Ag/Mining), Byzantium (Cataphract), or one of the Ag/Wheels
Egypt still the best of those.
9:30 PM Willem is great.
________________________________________ 5 minutes
9:35 PM me: while Cataphract are awesome, I think combining it with Willem will put me at extra risk of being accused of being too good if I build up in peace, and gain more unwanted aggression than I want for a while
9:36 PM China seems really good, because it has those starting techs that'll allow me to get hooked up to things asap, the UB isn't special but works with creative, and the UU isn
isn't too special either, but it's early and 2 first strikes isn'
isnt too much to sneeze at
9:37 PM and if my finger doesn't keep hitting enter every time I try to hit the ' key, I
i'm going to cut it off
brb, mutilating myself.
9:38 PM Commodore: 'kay
9:41 PM Yeah, it's a question.
me: back, 9 finger remain
Commodore: Ah, good
9:42 PM me: anyways, I still really like having the war chariot threat to hang over people
I'll go with either or china, and wait a bit to see what the 2 cat teams pick
Commodore: CKNs aren't all that impressive really.
me: well china's strong for those starting techs more than the CKNs
9:43 PM Commodore: Right
me: I'd prefer Egypt over china I think, but I don't want to think about it too much
in case a cat takes it up
Commodore: Like the HC heartbreak, gotcha
Well, you ought to get at least one.
Unless both are smoking something, one team is getting India.
9:44 PM If Egypt, then Egypt, otherwise China is good.
me: yup
![[Image: key_art_firefly.jpg]](http://assets.huluim.com/shows/key_art_firefly.jpg)
) Sadly, my attempts seem rather flat, I'll need to think over what I say a bit more to be believeable.
