Not another elf chick? HidingKneel beats a dead horse. (Spoilers!)

[HidingKneel]

Dovello leaders, mentally conflated!

They're definitely more respectable in EitB than they were in FFH. Mahala could be a decent builder, but if I wanted to play that game Rhoanna would do it better.

Speaking of barbarian civs... I forgot to include the Clan on my list. I'd say they're a pretty solid for just about any strategy, provided (of course) that they start with a dozen free techs to compensate them for playing with huts off .

HidingKneel. Why do you dislike Agnostic so much? What I want to say is that if you want a focused arcane game, all the priest techs are not necessary, but the benefits of the agnostic leaders/civs are quite big.

Even a minimal investment in the religious line can pay big dividends. Early religions are fairly cheap, beakerwise. In exchange you get a holy city (potentially useful for the culture it generates), a way to get culture to your cities without building monuments or researching drama, and the ability to build units with Medic I that can bring conquered cities out of revolt.
Cassiel doesn't get any medic units until very late (though Grigori medics are awesome when you do get them), and Auric needs to invest in religious techs anyway (for the admittedly awesome PoW).

Plus, the quickest ways to make the Arcane techs pay off is go Esus or OO, and pick up Gibbon/Hemah as a twincasting archmage. Cassiel can have more of those, but not until he researches Strength of Will. Auric doesn't get any, unless he gets lucky via an event or lair result.

HidingKneel, do you mind if I dedlurk this thread? (Saw you were looking for dedlurkers in the planning thread.) I do plan to join in as a player on later FfH games too, but thought I'd assist in some games first. Don't have too much experience with EitB actually (playing my SPs with Tholal's mod atm), and no MP experience with FfH as yet (and only neglectable BtS MP experience prior to joining these forums). So I'm basically looking to improve in these departments. Nevertheless, I could probably make myself useful in testing out micro plans or whatever

Welcome aboard! Any thoughts as to civ choice? I'm still pretty enthused about Thessa and Perpentach as my top picks, but unsure about the third.

There are the arcane options: Cassiel, Valledia, Tebryn.
Alternatively, thread titles can always be changed. Thessalonica or Rhoanna might be fun. Or maybe Cardith (as long as my first two picks are civs I've already played, why not the third?)

[flugauto]

You can pop borders with carnivals without building monuments or religion disciples. And carnivals give happiness too.
You can get holy city as agnostic if you pop a disciple from a lair and spread religion before the tech is researched. But this is like getting as adventurere, pure luck.

If you choose not an agnostic, then play Tebryn. It is always alot of fun. And a challenge to make sheaim win. (As I recall it, everyone playing sheaim lost.)

[UnforcedError]

I totally agree on the importance of religions. Cassiel has a serious disadvantage there. Grigori medics and multiple twincasting archmagi look great on paper but are very far down the tech tree. They don't compensate for the lack of priests or religious heroes.

Since this looks to be a setting that favours empire building I'd rate Exp and Org fairly high (is the difficulty level set yet?). If everyone's expected to have a huge amount of cities Cardith would be suboptimal though, especially with the ToM VC nerved (Basium is out, right?). Thessa is great if we're given a bit of time to get the Elven economy going. Perpentach has three traits and a fine civ. If I'd have to choose between Valledia and Tebryn I'd favour Valledia for this game. In a builder setting economy is a bit more important than pyre zombies and excellent summoning capabilities, although this is a very close call to me. Say, if we ended up playing on Monarch or something we wouldn't profit too much from ORG anyway, so in that case Tebryn might be better.

EDIT: cross post with flug__auto: I guess any non-agnostic civ could pop adventurers from lairs with some luck and could still found / adopt religions :D Carnivals cost a small fortune so monuments or Drama is still the easiest way to pop cities apart from captured bears.

EDIT2: I kind of like Auric, even without Stasis. CHM is indeed a good trait for mages. Another option would be Varn, but he might be a bit slow to get going. But SPI does in a way ncorporate Arcane as far as mages are concerned.
And another argument against Cassiel: if we emphasize the arcane line we want sages for bulbs. Sorcery can be bulbed directly after bulbing a mana tech in EitB, right? So it's either adventurers or sages.

[HidingKneel]

Since this looks to be a setting that favours empire building I'd rate Exp and Org fairly high (is the difficulty level set yet?).

Not yet; I don't think either Yell0w or I have weighed in on that. If Thessa is our top pick we want a lower difficulty, to make the most of being Expansive. Of course Valledia will benefit most (relative to opponents) by playing on Deity.

If everyone's expected to have a huge amount of cities Cardith would be suboptimal though, especially with the ToM VC nerved (Basium is out, right?).

Yeah, no Basium this game. And while I'm not averse to picking a civ I've already played, I think it may be a bit too soon for a second Basium run with Cardith .

On the other hand, Hyborem is fair game. Though I don't think he'll perform too well on a giant builder map.

EDIT2: I kind of like Auric, even without Stasis. CHM is indeed a good trait for mages. Another option would be Varn, but he might be a bit slow to get going. But SPI does in a way ncorporate Arcane as far as mages are concerned.
And another argument against Cassiel: if we emphasize the arcane line we want sages for bulbs. Sorcery can be bulbed directly after bulbing a mana tech in EitB, right? So it's either adventurers or sages.

Spiritual doubling as Arcane has been addressed in EitB (divine units get their own version of the potency promotion, so mages upgraded from savants don't get potency).

Good point about Cassiel. Let's cross him off the list. I'm still torn between Valledia and Tebryn, though. I definitely think Valledia's stronger, but Tebryn is just dripping with flavor.

[UnforcedError]

Spiritual doubling as Arcane has been addressed in EitB (divine units get their own version of the potency promotion, so mages upgraded from savants don't get potency).

I see. I must have missed that part in the changelog. They still keep their free mobility promo, don't they?

So if we want Thessa we'd have to vote for a lower difficulty level but someone might very well pick her before we get the choice? Are we prepared to play her on a higher level too? Would she still be our top pick on IMM/Deity? Is EitB's stronger cottage economy strong enough to power us through? (Extra settler hammers are welcome even on Deity, if we intend to build lots of cities.)

[HidingKneel]

I see. I must have missed that part in the changelog. They still keep their free mobility promo, don't they?

Yep. And the Arcane trait grants mobility to arcane units now too, which is a nice boost.

So if we want Thessa we'd have to vote for a lower difficulty level but someone might very well pick her before we get the choice? Are we prepared to play her on a higher level too? Would she still be our top pick on IMM/Deity? Is EitB's stronger cottage economy strong enough to power us through? (Extra settler hammers are welcome even on Deity, if we intend to build lots of cities.)

My money's on yes. EitB has been very, very kind to the elven civs.

[UnforcedError]

My money's on yes. EitB has been very, very kind to the elven civs.

I think so too Which means: Thessa > Perpentach > Valledia if we end up with a high diff level, and maybe Thessa > Perpentach > Tebryn on Monarch or EMP? Also, just out of curiosity: how do we plan on achieving the ultimate arcane power with Perpy if he loses his Arcane trait on T3 and never regains it? (It that case you'll have to change the thread title )

[UnforcedError]

HidingKneel, do you want to go with Tebryn as the third choice if EMP gets accepted?

[HidingKneel]

Tempting. Emperor's still high, though. Let's go with Valledia. I've never actually played around with Govannon before.

[UnforcedError]

Tempting. Emperor's still high, though. Let's go with Valledia. I've never actually played around with Govannon before.

That's fine by me I like playing all four of them