Math for MOO

[Kabuki]

Barron - If you find your enjoyment lessenend by these threads, don't read them. Charis (especially see his post) and a lot of us find that the game is more fun when we play better and we can raise the challenge level. To put it simply, in many ways I prefer table top games because of the inherent human challenge, which a computer game cannot provide. However getting my friends together for a 7 or 8 hour session of Age of Renneissance is mmm... difficult, especially since they are an impatient bunch and playing a long game more than once every three months or so is too much for their poor souls :D for those of us who play civ on a regualr basis... 7 hours is not that much I suspect. On a side note, playing with Charis in SGs and learning how to be a better gamer has made a huge difference in my general gaming skill. I enjoy that. We all enjoy gaming in a different fashion, however RB has a general set of guidelines in terms of how that enjoyment is promoted (not that I'm always entirely clear on what they are... then again I'm having a great time, so who cares...). On a side not - This kind of thread is for many of us part of it. If it isn't your cup of tea, then listen to yourself and go with what you find to be fun, interesting and challenging. Life is too short for us to ruin a good game for you. But do stick around because I sincerely believe that you will have fun if you hang out here - the values do tend to rub off after a while and you might even start helping Charis in his insane math projects... (now why anyone would find math fun is still beyond me).

I'm not sure any of that was particularily coherent, but hey I think the point is in there somewhere.

[barron of ideas]

I greatly respect what the math geniuses and other strategy whizzes are doing and I do enjoy reading the posts here, and I too, in my way, I think, am improving my game, even though it is still at a lower level. Hey, I could be playing easy with one opponent.

I think what I wanted to say is that if someone finds the secret formula for cracking the game wide open, as happened with earlier versions of CIV3 (the palace jump, ring city placement, other things like folowing settlers and conquering newly formed cities, all the multiple broken things that had to be patched dont tell anyone. Or PM Sirian and let him decide if it should be published to the world.

He seems to be the custodian (I don't mean in a janitor sense, but then again, he does tidy up) and his judgment about what will harm the game can be trusted. If this game can be broken, please don't break it. CIV3 had patches to fix uber strategies. And CIV4 is probably coming down the pike.

We already know the later iterations of MOO aren't what we hoped for, and no-one as far as I know can fix this game if someone finds the one ring to rule them all. Please throw even an approximation of "the one best way" into the fires of Mt. Doom.

New tools are good. Even if you need a degree in math to follow the reasons. New stratgic choices are even better. But, everyone, please. If you find a perfect plan for this game, you will wreck it for everyone, probably even Sirian. Analyze everything, publish whatever you feel is valuable, but if someone finds out there is a palace jump or a ring city placement, or some other strategy that always wins, you just broke the game. As someone else said recently, don't go there.

[Charis]

Ah, good point regarding "if something that would break the game is found."

Although that sounds unlikely, you might be interested to know...

- I found the Ring City Placement bug/feature/exploit almost one year before it was 'discovered' and never said a word about to it anyone. I do know when to keep quiet
- I've had other RB people email me with important but less nasty exploits, and we jointly decided not to go public there either.

So don't worry, I'm on board with you on that note B)
Charis

[Sirian]

At some point along the road, we run the risk of making it too easy so it isn't a challenge to play.

That's not really in the player's hands. That's up to game designers. There have been more than half a dozen great games I've played in the last decade that have stood the test of time, retaining their replay value to me no matter how much I play them. These few gems are always worth a revisit now and then, because the challenge remains intact and the game delivers a solid value each time through.

Some games are not meant to be replayed much, focusing on the player's first or second experience, without spending time to extending replay value. Other games are meant to be replayable. Trying to "extend" the playable life of a game is ultimately futile. Players will either outgrow a given game or they will not.

He can't play Average and won't play the "easy" races because it is no challenge to him.

I play the easier races less often. "No challenge" to me would not be accurate. "Less challenge" would fit, but I can still lose. In fact, I'm playing a Psilons game right now and I may be in some trouble there.


There are a few balance issues and loopholes that I know about, which I am keeping an eye on. If they prove troublesome to the tourney experience, they can be regulated. If new issues crop up, solutions may also be available. Don't worry too much about it. Nothing lasts forever. Enjoy this while it's here and I'll do what I can to help everyone get the most out of it.


- Sirian