[PB72 SPOILERS] Aetryn learns humility

[Mjmd]

I asked Aetryn where should HE, Ironworks, and wall street go. Which of course made me consider the question to.

Wall street is probably Humility. I think even if did a late game shrine Humility would be worth more? I haven't been in game recently enough but maybe generosity? Some city that due to sheer number of towns may eventually pass capital. Main problem with Generosity is it is a tad too close to the front for my taste. Hate all the valley cities because of isolation but maybe figure if getting pushed down the valley already lost. Also, some nice bureaucracy corp wall street action is nice until 3rd GA.

Should you stack ironworks and HE? NO. I'm pretty sure this is incorrect after PB66. Idea was just to have a city to spam ICBMs but A) you want ironworks for late game wonders and B) that is a lot of eggs in one basket. So HE in Patience makes sense, but then Ironworks where?

[aetryn]

I asked Aetryn where should HE, Ironworks, and wall street go. Which of course made me consider the question to.

Wall street is probably Humility. I think even if did a late game shrine Humility would be worth more? I haven't been in game recently enough but maybe generosity? Some city that due to sheer number of towns may eventually pass capital. Main problem with Generosity is it is a tad too close to the front for my taste. Hate all the valley cities because of isolation but maybe figure if getting pushed down the valley already lost. Also, some nice bureaucracy corp wall street action is nice until 3rd GA.

Should you stack ironworks and HE? NO. I'm pretty sure this is incorrect after PB66. Idea was just to have a city to spam ICBMs but A) you want ironworks for late game wonders and B) that is a lot of eggs in one basket. So HE in Patience makes sense, but then Ironworks where?

Probably Fortitude, which is my second best production city and very safe from attack. Other options are Temperance (right on the frontier with Greenline), or Hope.

[aetryn]

Question for lurkers:

It looks like both Greenline and I will finish the prerequisites for Mining Inc on the same turn (T202). This seems like a settler race situation where the rules we decided on pre-game were "Lurkers flip a coin to see who goes first"? Is that correct? If so, how do we do this without confusing everyone else? Or will it even matter? Surely everyone else will see Mining Inc founded on T202 and know what the situation was anyway.

Thoughts?

[Qgqqqqq]

I think flipping a coin would be appropriate here.

[aetryn]

Turns out not to matter, because he decided to burn a merchant to discover the tech one turn early. I'll be charitable and assume he was always planning to do that and did not adjust due to me asking vaguely for a lurker opinion in the tech thread. While not technically against the rules, responding to someone trying to prevent a problem on a subsequent turn by using the information that there might be a problem coming up to adjust your strategy seems highly, highly questionable to me. I can confirm he does NOT have tech visibility on me, but he does have Alphabet and can see that I discovered Railroad last turn. So maybe this was totally legit. But to use an analogy from another game, in Bridge you are required to carefully AVOID taking advantage of any information you aren't supposed to have, which actually means if you had something like a 50-50 choice between bidding or passing, and the information suggests, even the slightest amount, bidding, you are supposed to pass. Because as humans we unconsciously take advantage of lots of bits of information to make our decisions, this is a sensible policy because it may have unconsciously affected you, or maybe consciously but you rationalized that you were "always doing that anyway", etc. Anyway, doesn't apply here, and I don't care enough about this game to make an argument about it. But I would have acted along those lines and said "well, whatever it is, I'm not supposed to know about it so I won't adjust my strategy by guessing what it might be."

But I do recommend active ethics as it seems quite in keeping with the RB focus on fair play. The alternative is encouraging me to try to snipe Mining Inc by playing clock games and then forcing people to sort it out after the fact.

Of course, now I'll probably fail my 90% Engineer and it won't matter anyway.

Anyway, will switch gears to Creative Construction, which Bing is too far from to stop me from getting.

Meanwhile it looks like Bing is gearing up for war with Greenline. Unknown how that will affect the geopolitical situation in this part of the world (will Greenline take peace with Xist? WIll Xist attack Greenline? Will Xist attack me?) but I'm mostly staying out of it and heading for Infantry, as my army is still not up to tangling with the big boys.

[Mjmd]

I was telling Aetryn it isn't the worst thing to get creative construction instead as long as Bing plays ball with resources. The cultural output can be pretty brutal especially on newer cultural areas. It will probably equal what Greenline gets from Mining Inc.

[Mjmd]

Aetryn gave me permission to try to update this thread.



Now mind you a lot of our conversation is date based not turn based. This is a problem because these lunatics with a turn split often do 3 turns a day at least. I don't always get screenshots and I only have a vague idea what's happening, but I will try my best. Starting 8/30 which was last official turn report.

8/30

Prudence resettled. 

8/31 

Pillaging roads, Bing on rifling. Discussion on expected ETA for mining inc and race. I pointed out that great engineers are hard to get and told him to stop having lucky opponents. 

9/1 
3600 gold in bank spending 379 a turn with some wealth builds. 

9/4 Xist went towards Greenlines city. Aetryn wandered about advancing south but decided to wait. Also 1 movers bad at long marches.

9/5 more talk on corp race and this was where Aetryn first asked about the coinflip. I'm honestly not sure on this one. Feels like the right thing to do, but its not like the situation comes up much.

9/7 

aetryn — 09/07/2023 10:35 PM
Yep, rolled to Turn 201, I had to switch some wealth builds to research and I am just about scraping the bottom of the treasury, but I will finish Corporation the same turn Greenline does, and the Great Person will be born T202 also.
So, uh, that will be crazy?
Anyway, posted the question in thread.

Also 9/7 musing about how to get to next 3 great people. So I asked for city screen shot. 

Mjmd — 09/07/2023 11:03 PM
Why hi faith
aetryn — 09/07/2023 11:03 PM
I think it has one specialist still running
Mjmd — 09/07/2023 11:03 PM
How ya doing sweetie

9/8

Greenline won mining inc race. I pointed out that the culture from creative construction can be super annoying and that hopefully can get some Bing trades. 

Talked about risk of building railroads everywhere and to be careful. I swear there is no recent reason for me emphasizing to Aetryn about this   .

Got Engineer 202, so at least didn't fail the 90% roll. 

9/9 
Greenline on Democracy. I think this was a mistake for the record. If Greenline ends up losing this game this will be one of the key decisions. This is a win more decision. These can work out, but risky. 

9/10 

aetryn — 09/10/2023 2:53 PM
Bing sent me a diplomacy offer for me to declare war on Greenline.
I'm NOT ready to do that this turn. But thinking about whether it would make sense in a few turns and if I want to signal that.
I'm not sure I can know until I see what Greenline and Xist do with diplo.

aetryn — 09/10/2023 3:05 PM
Could probably take Mediolanum. Maybe Huckleberry Finn or Njal's Saga depending on what happens to his stack, but he has a lot of forces in the area, so it'd have to be after Bing went in first.

This is followed by me egging Aetryn to attack and help Bing out. Plan was to mainly move few knights NE towards Odesy.

9/11
Xist advances putting a hold on any offensive thoughts.



Aetryn moved some rifles to pillage hill road. Aetryn didn't think he would move that way and he probably wouldn't have, but figured would give Aetryn 1 more turn for more reinforcements to filter in just in case. We also had another argument about how much garrison to keep in Courage. The wizened advisor mostly persuaded to send more of these troops to one of the fronts.

9/11 next turn. Bing got peace for a city.

aetryn — 09/12/2023 11:42 AM
Xist did not take peace, moved here:



Seems like a weird place to move.

Aetryn shows his wisdom as I was also confused by this. Only thing I could figure was a bait, but there was just no reason for us to care......

[Mjmd]

We Have To Go Out 



9/13

Greenline moves in.


9/14

Greenline takes and Aetryn founds what is now RoughRollSeas back in old Roman spot. I persuaded him there vs our previously planned 1E to culturally pressure Antium. This is a good note to re-evaluate city spots when situations changed. 



Aetryn had put 1T into Democracy and I felt pretty strongly this was a mistake. Aetryn wanted to pressure SoL, but I felt the two free great specialists were much more important. Both for Aetryns 3rd GA, but also to deny. The wonders that are worth pressuring are oracle and not a wonder but lib. Both are for the same reason so they can't grab better stuff. Unless you think you can steal a wonder there isn't much point pressuring. To be fair Aetryn also wanted for civics, but I pointed out could grab latter if decided needed it.

We also had some talk about important of coal plants to go with factories even if need to redo some improvements. Go go early HG though! Also, one of the good things about failing to get Taj GA was that still in org for this last building push. 

9/16 

Greenlines invading army got destroyed and Xist retook his city. Kind of awkard with Aetryns two new cities. We debated about Aetryn going in. I wasn't worried much about Xist but rather about sending army on a long walk with both Bing and Greenline being above in power.

next turn on 9/16 Bing goes to war with Greenline



9/17 

Moved in. Pre Heroic Epic patience is at 112 hammer / turn.

9/18 

Xist stack disappeared. Aetryn theorized Xist going after new city of Gao to the east, but main thing path was clear. Aetryn abandoned Gao. 

Bing also asked Aetryn to join in vs Greenline. Aetryn sent 5T signal back.

9/19 

Gao burned but Aetryn finally burned Antium removing its annoying culture. That city being a holy city caused a lot of trouble this game. Gao was no great loss as didn't have corp in yet and Aetryn is Imp. 

Some debate on strategy vs Greenline. Aetryn wasn't seeing much and neither of us wanted to jump in and then get jumped. 

9/20 

Some more thoughts on how to attack. We had decided to send a force NE vs Oddysey so just debating how much. Didn't want to attack, have Bing peace out, and then Greenline invade more important coreland so kept a lot back. Also, to avoid giving opportunity for stack trade had decided to go after Med with 2 moral generals and some old 2 movers.

Aetryn also switched back to Communism after teching astronomy to half. Really wanted both free specialists, which is why doing this way. 

Don't remember if mentioned it earlier but long term tech plans after physics thinking Biology to help offset unhealthiness in some cities plus there are 4 more cities Aetryn can plant then. 

9/21

Got a great engineer giving Aetryn required 3 specialists. Some debate about not firing off GA to save either the engineer or merchant. Faith has a good shot at merchant though. Also, debate about if better to wait for more factories / coal plants to finish / use the last push of org religion to finish. Quite a few were already done and health buildings ect still need to be built, so decided "soon".

9/22

The city of Med is burned!!! Man I hated this city when Xist planted it. 



I pushed for replacement to be ON the pig. This allows the city to culturally pressure west and south fairly effectively. Still will have a descent natural food surplus and strategic positing is pretty important. Its nice Aetryn culturally took the wine a while back making this plant safe.

Can also see saving gold for 1 more turn before obsoleting pretty Colossus. Some debate about firing off GA this turn vs next. Aetryn was leaning next and I was persuaded as probably same timeframe for scientist race.

Also moved in NE.

9/23

Greenline abondoned both Odyssey to Aetryn but also Ajal's Saga to Xist. Popped GA. We had discussed timing of GA, but not civics so Aetryn didn't switch 1st turn, which is a mistake on my part. Civic swaps were obviously the reason we decided to fire off the 3 person GA this soon. Next turn flipped into nationalism and free market which saved over 100gpt. Nationalism for 7 turns to boost numbers is pretty good. Some debate about immediately going free speech, but I left it up to Aetryn and I like his decision to pump out some military first. 

Unsure what Bing is doing. Aetryn lost city vision of Greenline and only had 1 scout in Bing territory. 

9/24

Decided to keep pushing with small NE stack. 

aetryn — Today at 2:25 PM
Bing is pushing toward Homegoing (his nearest front to the wine area). Should I push toward Huck Finn any?
aetryn — Today at 2:39 PM
The problem is I can't locate Greenline's strength, and he has roughly as much as I do
aetryn — Today at 2:48 PM
Decided to wait one more turn and see how he changes his disposition in response to Bing's attack.

I like waiting here. We are hoping for a nice stack trade. I'm definitely writing this as Bing has paused and unpaused the game like 8 times. So here is hoping.

I might go in for some live reporting today and want to do some thoughts on late game civics.

[Mjmd]

Ocean Queen




T226 before Aetryn played. Bing took a major city got 2 ggs to Greenlines 1.

First off I've been wanting an empire overview shot FOREVER, so I went in to take my own!



City overview shot. Lots of coal plants mainly.



To satisfy my own curiosity on financial Mali took some financial screenshots. Mind in a GA, but still its a nice little bit of change considering no ones elses UB or UU are doing anything atm.

At breakeven ish.



At 0%



Demos



Lets not beat around the bush. Its one thing seeing the power demo's in tiny discord screenshots, its another seeing the actual power graph.



This is impressive as hell. Bing was last of the big 3 to assembly line, so this has to be all with no production corp, no factories (I went back into glance around and confirmed none to be seen), just drafting and naturally producing. You have to wonder why the heck Greenline thought walking into Xist was a good idea. I mean he probably didn't expect to be destroyed, but still. Also shown Aetryn needs to get in GEAR!

Again, its impressive because look at this production. Greenline had nearly DOUBLE his. He got caught flat footed building buildings probably (I saw some colosseums for instance). Also 100% regrets the win more play of going for Democracy atm. He could have had assembly line earlier and SoL would have been a lot of infantry. Aetryns will also be shooting up with all his factories and coal plants finishing. 



Here is GNP graph. Bing has been pretty consistently behind in tech and I think Aetryn with Free Speech can pretty easily blow him away tech wise. Its hard to tell who is more inflated atm. Bing is creative with a million old wonders and Aetryn has creative construction.



So I was going to do some debate about late game civics for end of GA, but um I think the power graph mostly shows route forward.

I was previously going to advocate for going free religion over theocracy. I don't think that is an option with that power disparity though.....  I mean can see how the Bing Greenline battle turned out. But with Bing getting 2 generals and being the one who did the attacking, its probably bad. 

And honestly tech decides the rest. Aetryn was wanting to finish teching Democracy for universal suffrage, but I pointed out might want to stay monarchy for Kremlin plus sushi. I definitely don't think have time to tech Democracy. With Kremlin finishing want a good whippable unit so I think its full speed to tanks before going biology > refrigeration. Plus electricity will help push econ edge.

As I indicated I still like free speech over nationhood. Need to get some key techs fast and have Kremlin unlocking soon so drafting isn't as needed. If Aetryn can be cruel enough is an open question. 

Here is a stat screenshot I actually took to analyze universal suffrage before I took a look at power graph, but can see free speech will be worth a pretty penny. Also see 25 windmills for electricity and Aertryn is building first water mill. 



Questions? I now vaguely have a better understanding of the game.

[Qgqqqqq]

Really appreciate the update! Where are you pushing? What's the plan - what do you want to take, when would you plan to fight Bing, etc.

Btw you get more experience attacking then defending.