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Whosit · January 29th, 2011, 10:56

Mist Wrote:Hit him while it hurts

That's the plan.

Awesome work. Though it seems strange to tech HBR before Archery, doesn't it? He knows War Elephants have been banned, I'm sure. Still, considering the quick tech pace, I'm not sure I could get to his core before he has catapults of his own (not that that would stop me much). Preferred target is still the lake, of course. Wonder if he's going to capture that Barb city, as he had an Axeman next to it last I saw.

Speaking of, sorta, I'm wondering if I should make an attempt to disguise Construction. It's not currently part of the plan, and I'm not eager to whip, but Construction is 4000 points, so if I whipped something the turn before or the turn of....? (It's due T52.) Any ideas on that?

Edit: Maybe we should compare notes on the tech (oh, wait, I don't really have notes), but I see you thought HBR for the 11000 point boost. My thoughts was that it was Math (6000), 2 Quechuas (4000) and a pop point (1000). Of course, I came up with that in isolation, so maybe you figured out a reason that wouldn't be the case.

T-hawk · January 29th, 2011, 11:13

Whosit Wrote:Though it seems strange to tech HBR before Archery, doesn't it?

I think that's normal for a HA rush. You build the stables while researching Archery. (Not a spoiler, I don't have any memory right now of what's in his thread. I read all the posts here but most go in one eye and out the other.)

Whosit · January 29th, 2011, 13:47

Alright, finally gots vision on GE's graphs:

Score (I guess it's not really necessary):

[Image: T50Score.jpg]

Power:

Hammers:

GNP:

Food:

Culture:

Also news: Looks like he'll use his two Axemen to raze the barb city between lake and his core. If I'm very, very lucky, both will take some damage, and either wait a few turns to heal, or at least be a bit wounded when they get to the cities. I'd prefer them to just wait, of course. I should also learn in a turn or two if he has a Spearman en route.

Construction will be completed on Turn 54, not 53, since unit costs are rising and I don't have the funds to go at full steam all the way. If I delay my strike until turn 59, I could bring a Catapult along, but if there is an Axeman in the city, it can probably kill the catapult (the 'pult will be the top defender against the Axeman since I don't have an Axe of my own to cover for it). Still a few turns until I have to decide what to do, and Gaspar should get a unit to spot for me at the lake around then. He has told me that two Quechuas from that attack stack are wandering off somewhere else, so at least GE isn't piling everything he has into the city just yet.

Here's a chat I had with Gaspar, by the way. It is long. I'll try to summarize at the end.

So, GE and Gaspar/Nakor are arguing about GE's next lake city spot. I believe that the settler is in place (but not settled yet). GE has apparently told them that he's offered to return DropShortALiter to me, but that is of course a lie. Gaspar believes the GE is going to say anything at this point to avoid conflict with them. GE probably suspects that I'm not going to quietly let him get away with this.

I don't think that they are going to offer military support, at least not soon enough for my tastes, but I think they will continue to feed me information, and are willing to scout a bit for my benefit. Biggest benefit would be them getting a unit on the west coast of the lake, since it could see into Drop/Liter. They're not really sure what GE's overall plan is because it doesn't make any sense to them. They think he is kind of crazy.

I'm hoping that GE doesn't decide to just Axe my warrior out of twisted principle or something. I'm not technically breaking any part of the "deal," but it's clear I'm shadowing his movements. Just another turn and I can see if he really has a Spearman on the move, although I convince Gaspar to move his Warrior into position to check, in the event that my Warrior gets killed.

I don't think that there is anything else of note. I'm trying to plan ahead for the attack, but there are just too many factors and variables up in the air at the moment. How many troops will GE have in the city? Will he have a Spearman? Will he be able to whip out a Quechua? Will he have an Axeman? One, or two? Is he still preparing for war, or is he shifting gears to peace and expansion? (Evidence suggests the former--he's nervous about the English.) Hopefully I will gain answers as the turns move ever closer to the time of destiny, but this may just as well end up being a shot in the dark.

And I'm going to look like an incredible fool if this counter-attack fails.

Mist · January 29th, 2011, 16:05

Whosit Wrote:Edit: Maybe we should compare notes on the tech (oh, wait, I don't really have notes), but I see you thought HBR for the 11000 point boost. My thoughts was that it was Math (6000), 2 Quechuas (4000) and a pop point (1000). Of course, I came up with that in isolation, so maybe you figured out a reason that wouldn't be the case.

If my pop C&D is correct his cities grew rapidly over that bit and he did not whip. I assumed he could not push out 4 ( or even 6 if that 5000 before is also quechua related ) quechuas in 4 turns while growing at the same time.
But there is an odd chance it might be Math, apart from the growth/previous turn build thing the cost and prereq bonuses are the same.

Also now that I see the culture graph swap the turns I have Fishing and Mysticism at. He built a monument before BC 2560.

Whosit · January 29th, 2011, 16:25

Mist Wrote:Also now that I see the culture graph swap the turns I have Fishing and Mysticism at. He built a monument before BC 2560.

I don't think it's likely that he's built Monuments since he's the Inca, whose Granaries produce culture. While he may have picked up Mysticism for other reasons, not sure what they might be.

I also forgot to mention that we know for a fact that he does not even have Horses in his cultural borders, so teching HBR now seems pretty silly.

Whosit · January 29th, 2011, 17:55

Turn came back quickly. Bah. Much as I like it, I've been too distracted by things today, can't spend any more time on Civ....

But, anyway, of note, GE razed the Barb city, probably got small amount of gold. One Axe unharmed, the other (the one that got the kill) is about half health. Moved Warrior away. We'll see what happens. Spear didn't show up, which either means it's not coming, or that it's taking another route! No, I'm not being too paranoid! There are a couple of other potential routes it could take that bypasses the spot my Warrior was but still getting to the city on T57. Hmph.

Also, a discrepancy between my sandbox and real game popped up. Not sure why. Worker 2 is going to take 3 instead of 2 turns, because it's getting 5 overflow instead of 8. duh

Because my timetable on Worker actions is pretty precise, going to whip city next turn to get Worker out on schedule. Could hurt tech time quite a bit, as I lose Gems for a few turns, but getting Copper online is more important.

Still fiddling with attack times. Another Barb Warrior is at Eve/Ning, but I think I can handle it. I'm not sure what I did in my sim, but I got 4 chariots and 2 Holkans into attack position for T58 (moved adjacent on T57), and ended up with 5 Chariots just a turn behind them (used Workers to build a road outside my territory). If no spearmen, then that seems like something to do. Or would it be better to wait one more turn so that I hit GE with 8-9 Chariots all at once? Well, I guess I'll wait to see if Gaspar can tell me how many units Garrison the city.

OK, and graphs and stuff. I guess I should do this each turn for Mist's sake. Sorry, no actual game screens, not much to see, but I'll get some soon.

Power:

[Image: T51Power.jpg]

GNP:

Food:

Grabbed demo screen after I hit enter. Note that at the start of turn, had 60000 power, and was tied for 6th. Now:

[Image: T51Demos.jpg]

Meaning GE can see exactly what I'm doing since my stats are his "rival best." Oh well.

Whosit · January 29th, 2011, 21:06

'Nother conversation with Gaspar:

Summary: Gaspar was panicking because GE's power is still rising. I told him to calm down: It's clear from the graphs that his cities are tooled for max production (and his GNP is kinda crappy), and since this is Quick, ancient units like Axemen can be cranked out ever other turn or faster. Also talked a bit about our experiences with GE's diplomacy, which seems to have been generally atrocious--he threatened Ga... Gakor? Naspar? Nakpar? Hmm... Admiral Nakpar. Yeah. OK, so GE had threatened Nakpar's scouting Warrior in his first message.

Also turns out that he had obliquely flashed his hand regarding me to them a few turns before he attacked. Unfortunately, because of a combination of 1)unresponsiveness from my end (darn you, Ravus!), 2)not really believing GE was so crazy, and 3)being peeved at my lake city anyway, they didn't fill me in. And then, as we all know, GE blundered his way into taking my city.... *sigh* The wound still hurts. If only I had recognized the gift that had been handed to me.... Anyway.

Then Gaspar implied that I'm crazy, and that I'm possibly the craziest player in all the games I've been in.

I'll kill him.

I'LL KILL HIM DEAD!!!

lol

Just kidding. crazyeye

In all likelihood, I'll be fighting a protracted war against GE. Once he's been kicked off the lake, I don't really expect Gaspar and Nakor to even pretend to want to offer help, as it will be in their best interest to start expanding like nuts. I'll continue settling, of course... but it's a bit nerve-wracking at the same time, because the more I spread out, the wider an area I have to defend. I intend to solve this problem by putting GE on the defensive: If I'm not strong enough to attack, I'll harass. I know where all his resources are, and I may leave an Axe/Spear pair camped near his Horses to prevent him from getting those.

If I can pillage any of his resources, I'll do so. Basically, I need to come up with a plan to just keep him on his toes, keep building troops, and just turtle up with two cities while I expand, grow stronger, and finally get the tech and soldiers to wipe him out. I can do this. I have to do this.

Also, Mist, if you can continue cracking GE's techs and stuff, that'd be really awesome. I'll post graphs each turn.

Mist · January 30th, 2011, 01:45

Quote:I also forgot to mention that we know for a fact that he does not even have Horses in his cultural borders, so teching HBR now seems pretty silly.

And doing a quechua rush on someone half a map away in a game with high maintenance cost is not silly? lol

But as I said, it can be Maths, simply not knowing his resource status made HBR a more natural fit.

Couple random tech notes -
If that HBR is indeed Maths that means he does have Construction ( last tech researched ) and can build catapults.
You can tell Nakor GE does not have Archery

And sure, I don't mind carrying on with C&D, these sheets need more tweaking to be actually useful, but I'm almost out of the stage where it's still hard work wink

And be prepared to catch more weed like me forgetting about his UB, I mostly play modded Civ and can miss/forget/screw up on things that should be obvious smoke

Try to keep updated demog figures and throw me a GNP/Culture/Power screenshot every 5 turns or so and I'll have enough to work with.

Whosit · January 30th, 2011, 09:44

Turn 52 has come and gone. A new barbarian incursion at Eve/Ning has proven to be a minor inconvenience. I will probably have to end up keeping a Chariot there to help ward off unwanted Barbarian advances.

Got this from Malakai:

Quote:Greetings Whovus,

How goes your war with GingerEagle?
I noticed he is hooking up his ivory, I do hope he has not forgotten the rule about not using Elephants.

While I am writing, I would like to offer to extend our existing NAP to turn 100
Regards

My reply to him (which I am putting together now and will post here shortly after this explanation paragraph) will be slightly disingenuous in that I will say that there is not actually a war. It's nice that he's giving me that little tid-bit, but I've probably already said too much to him in the past, so I'll keep mum on it now. No reason not to take the NAP, as practically speaking, I won't be attacking him, but I think I'll first ask if the NAP still has that clause about "aggressive settling" since he's now in a position to clamp down on me. frown

Also, I have not seen the lake city above size 1, so I suspect whips. It should be growing like a weed with that Clams. Hmm, or maybe he is building a Worker? I expected a Terrace whip first. Would have made more sense. So, it may very well be that the city will have no cultural defense when I attack, which would be nice.... hmm. One moment.

By by C&D count, there are 10 hammers invested in the city currently. Hm...

Turn 49: 1-2 hammers
Turn 50: 4-5 hammers
Turn 51: 7-8 hammers
Turn 52: ~10 hammers

Hrm... what could that mean? The progression is really weird, and would require him working not the Clam tile, which would we dumb. Even if he was slow-building a Terrace, the city should have grown by now, and there was not a turn in which there was no hammers, which would indicate something had been built that turn. Augh, too perplexing!

Message to Malakai:

Quote:Malakai,

There is no war. I signed a Cease Fire several turns ago.

Thanks for the information on the Ivory. I'm sure he hasn't forgotten--Ivory is still a useful early-game happiness resource. If he shows up on your doorstep with War Elephants, all you'd have to do is call him out in the Organization Thread and he'd be forced to delete them. Which would be rather funny.

Does the NAP still contain the clause regarding no aggressive settling? If so, was it defined as "do not settle in the other player's 'box' area?"

-Whosit
Cuh-razy Consul

I'm hoping he's not put off by the fact that I didn't outright agree to the NAP right away. Just trying to guard against saying "Yes, that's fine. Is that clause still there?" and having him reply, "OK, NAP extended, and no! Bwahahahaha!" I feel bad about it, but since I perceive myself to be in the weaker position, no reason not to try to negotiate some protection for myself if he'll take it. I won't make a big deal of it, though, if he says no. If he ever makes a real aggressive incursion, I'll probably just use force to dislodge him. I am not entirely sure how much I intend to respect NAPs in this game, actually. Probably only insofar as they are actually useful to me. I don't really expect to be breaking NAPs left and right, but I also will not allow someone to use a paper shield to take advantage of me when if I happen to have the physical might to correct the problem.

Anyway, enough about me being a horrible, despicable villain.

[Image: T52Axes.jpg]

I would hazard a guess that the hurt one is going to his new city, and that the healthy one is going to Drop/Liter. He'll get there T56. Current plan is to move a stack of 5 Chariots and 2 Holkans adjacent to the city on T57, and attack on T58. I hope to have an intel report from Gaspar in a couple of turns on what's in the city, but I estimate I'll face 4-5 Quechuas and the Axeman. I'll have another pair of Chariots, if there are no problems on the home front, move into position on T58, so they can attack T59, along with any other surviving Chariots that aren't badly wounded.

If there is indeed no Spearman, and I have yet to spot one incoming (doesn't mean it's not out there!), then this attack should succeed.

I can barely wait to compose my declaration of war message to GE... it should be the last thing I write to him ever. Though, I'd love to say I'll never sign peace, but of course, I will if it looks like he's about to stomp me and I can get out of it without concessions. I may be insane, but I'm not crazy. crazyeye

Blah blah overview. I don't think you can actually see much with all the busywork:

[Image: T52Overview.jpg]

Got reply from Malakai, confirmed non-aggression settling, so I agreed. Score one for me. I wonder if he realizes that he got the better deal there?

Hmm... I guess other lurkers have seen this, but my dedi's can't read Nakpar's thread, so here's a chat I had with Gaspar last night. Not really anything important, just trying to convince him of the utility of us both sending a pillaging squad to GE's core to keep him in the dark ages forever. (Probably wouldn't work for long, but I'm not comfortable letting hm be.) And he called me crazy again, and I said some silly things, etc., etc.

Whosit · January 30th, 2011, 13:20

Had a semi-friendly chat with Nakor. As I have gathered from Gaspar, he's far less interested in helping me out, but I already knew that. He did mention that Gaspar actually seems to want to help me, so I'll have to press that for all it's worth. Basically, the big news is that GE has claimed that he will return the city to me once he's built a workboat. However, aside from the fact that he never told me this (and lied to Nakpar before about it), that he could have whipped out a Workboat already, that GE did not give a date for this turnover, and that GE is generally just a slimeball, I'm just not really inclined to take this at face value and I think that this sentence is not grammatically correct oh whatever.

My biggest worry is that Nakor implied he may not get vision on the city on T54 as I hoped. Says he's got Barb problems. I got barb problems, so totally valid possibility, but... I'll be rather perturbed if they don't pull through. Also, they got a 4th city if I didn't mention it already. =( Anyway, I got Nakor to agree to ask GE to actually give a date for this supposed hand-off. And in the event that he actually goes through with it? Well, I'm just going to attack and burn his other city, anyway. lol

Suck it.

Dealing with a two-headed beast on the one hand, and a two-face scoundrel on the other.

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