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Ellimist · July 31st, 2011, 12:35

Btw about this:

Quote:I'm quite willing to exchange some information. What do you have in mind? We could throw ideas about the map at each other. If you want, I can tell you my tech path and you can tell me yours? I'm sure we would both love to have confirmation on when we got what.

That's actually fine with me. We've pretty much already announced our tech path to the world with Hinduism/Oracle. I haven't paid too much attention to his, so it would basically be free info. And it should probably generate some goodwill as well, since he proposed it and it sounds like he wants it to confirm his C&D.

Ellimist

A tiny bit of additional diplo:

I'm planning to send the following message soon if I see no objections:

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Kuro,

First, we need to admit that my team consists of recovering NAPaholics. We've been done with them for only a short time though, and we're afraid of a relapse if we agree to any. Especially one that is totally pointless given current game circumstances. If you need any evidence that NAP agreements are extremely over-used on this site, I would direct you to pitboss 4. Hopefully, we'll be able to show our friendly intentions without one.

As far as information, well, I'm going to go ahead and risk overwhelming you here. We've learned quite a bit about the map, but of course there's a lot left to discover.

As far as I can tell, there are 778 land tiles on this map, and each player started on an identical or nearly identical island consisting of 26 tiles. This leaves 674 land tiles that exist on a central continent, which was originally created using the "donut" map script. We believe that the map has had extensive editing, such as adding the 4 starting islands, so the exact features of the central donut are difficult to speculate on. So far, the outside of it seems relatively production-heavy, which is usually the weakness of coastal cities.

The map is flat, and probably a square or nearly so. You can confirm this by taking one of your units and, using a "goto" order pointer, try to send them to the south or west of your island. You'll get a red "can't go there" circle until you reach the edge of the map, at which point you won't get anything at all.

So far, our tech path has been: Fishing, Mining, Agriculture, Bronze Working, Mysticism, Polytheism, Priesthood, The Wheel, Pottery, Sailing, Metal Casting, Advanced Flight, Composites.

You probably already knew this, but the Noble/Lewwyn team built stonehenge and we built the Oracle(in our second city, Canopus). Jkaen/Ioan founded Buddhism and we founded Hinduism. This is another reason we wanted open borders, to share the polytheistic truth with your godless people.

You'll probably receive messages from all three of us at various times. We'll be using this same email for all of it. Sometimes we'll just send something right out, sometimes we'll get input from the whole team before sending it. We'll try to stay relatively coordinated with each other though, so you're not getting some messages ignored and three responses to some messages.

Ellimist[/COLOR]

I haven't sent it yet. Personally, I think this tells him a lot without telling him anything we may regret. Hopefully he'll be willing to give us a significant amount of information as well. I tried to mix in a bit of humor to match his less serious tone and to build rapport.

Ellimist · July 31st, 2011, 21:20

I played the turn and went ahead and sent the message posted above. I didn't want to keep him waiting too long. I don't think we'll regret telling him any of that.

I sent the open borders request and next turn we should get trade routes when we defog his capital. I'd like to go around his island to get visibility on his other city and see what improvements he's been focusing on. I noticed he only spent 2 EPs on us last turn, so he's already met his eastern neighbor.

I did the worker micro according to the signs and canceled all worker actions afterwards. Sirius was double-whipped for a galley and next turn we can load a worker and warrior on it.

For our tech path, I still want to do hunting-husbandry-writing. We aren't planning to put libraries up in the next 8 turns, and we don't need it for open borders with Kuro either. The prereq bonuses are essentially free beakers for the taking and we need AH relatively soon anyway.

SleepingMoogle · August 1st, 2011, 01:08

I'd probably say that message was very revealing, but if he returns a message with similar info, I can hardly complain. smile

A quick OB with Kuro would be awesome for the traderoute income alone. Wouldn't we have a traderoute connection already, since combined we're likely to have defogged all necessary tiles already?

By the way, we'll want to make sure Kuro is fine with us scouting his lands before actually doing it. So far none of the diplo has mentioned this, and I don't really want for us to antagonize him. Also, would it make sense to simply keep following the donut instead in order to make contact with Kuro's eastern neighbor more quickly?

Kuro getting early writing also suggests he will try to get a quick GS for an Academy. He can do a few things from there, but I'l tentatively put him down as going after the Great Library eventually. Given that the wonder doesn't really fit in with our REX plans, we could agree not to compete on it in return for something else? Other than the Colossus, I don't see us chasing more wonders anytime soon with the possible exception of the Gardens.

Regarding techs, I'm still unsure how much sense it makes to pick up AH when we don't have anything to Pasture as of yet, but my main reason for preferring Writing was OB, which it looks like we're getting with at least one neighbor. So if Nicolae agrees, we can fit in AH next.

Nicolae Carpathia · August 1st, 2011, 03:03

I haven't been thinking too deeply about the tech plans :shrugs:. The way I understand it, the pre-req discount from AH is not going to be paid back by teching AH. AH is 99 real beakers, getting both discounts will save us ~28 beakers. Not worth it until we're settling pigs as our next city. There is an argument for that, there are no barbs and no one's attacking us considering distances and galley logistics. The pigs site actually looks great, it may be good to get our cottages started early there. Conventional thinking would be to get the copper first, however, so we can route our excess production into the colossus asap.

I do agree with hunting next, a 1/3/2 tiles is strong and we can always use the extra happiness for the whip.

Nicolae Carpathia · August 1st, 2011, 05:10

Clicked on save in email account, haven't played it as I'm not up to date on our micro plans (and haven't had time anyway).

SleepingMoogle · August 1st, 2011, 06:24

Alright, I played the turn.

First off, Kuro accepted the open borders, so both our cities now have 3 gold trading routes. Om nom nom. smile

We're now at 33 beakers if research is at 100%, still losing only 2gpt. Animal Husbandry only takes 3 turns this way, so we might as well take it first now and get the added beaker discount on Writing. We'll probably finish both techs before we would consider a Library anyway.

Whipping the Galley in Sirus created a ridiculous overflow (combined with the hammers from this turn it was 44 in total), so I set production to a Settler (5T, though we can consider whipping again) rather than a MP warrior to prevent losing hammers. We can wait until th Ivory is hooked up and train a replacement MP warrior then.

Without an agreement on what to do with Canopus, I haven't whipped the Granary this turn (it's population cost is down to one now).

The Workers moved according to the micro plan. The gold tile is roaded now, and another turn was put into the mine. Now that Hunting finishes eot though, I would suggest leaving moving immediately to improve the Ivory and leave the mine until later. This will increase the happy cap faster, allowing both our cities to grow, and the Camp will finish just when Canopus will need a fifth tile to work.

The Warrior and Worker at Sirius both boarded the newly finished Galley and moved east. Here is the current situation:

[Image: T051Scouting.jpg]

We can unload the Worker onto the tile SE of the galley, to scout towards the south and then make a counter-clockwise circle. Then move the Galley north of the Copper and unload the Warrior on the second marked tile (and hope there is a Food resource south of the Gold).

The northern workboat didn't reveal anything this turn, but with Kuro's borders opened, we can scout around his island now. A galley appeared on his turn heading towards the north. I'm guessing it carries a Settler headed to that food-rich location (picture included):

[Image: T051Kuro.jpg]

Kuro's capital is down to size 2, so the Settler may have been whipped. Kuro also has a cottage going already.

Demographics at the end of the turn:

[Image: T051Demographics.jpg]

SleepingMoogle · August 1st, 2011, 06:36

Also, Kuro responded to our previous diplo message:

Quote:Eh, I'm cool with no NAP or anything. Admittedly I am vaguely worried at somebody rushing in with like a Galley with a Warrior and messing up plans, but I suppose that nobody is going to make a lifelong enemy for that little bit of disruption, hm.

You can just scroll over your name to learn the land tile count, so yes, 778. I also already figured out that we started on identical islands(It was surprisingly easy!), odds are identical to the capital and gold spot at least.

I didn't figure out that it was originally started with Donut, but IDK if it matters. I believe we are all equiodistant to each other on the map: I'm going to guess roughly 23~ tiles between each other, at each corner, with a central area containing strategic resources and such.

Odds are the central area will just be normal and not much special. It's going to produce most of the fighting for scraps of this game.

My tech path was: Mining -> Bronze Working -> Fishing -> Hunting -> Pottery -> Sailing -> Animal Husbandry -> Writing, of course starting with Agriculture and The Wheel. I'm quite happy with it. I am considering going Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Monotheism and founding Judaism. Would you be okay with not researching Monotheism until Judaism is founded?

And don't call us too godless now :P Eventully, we shall have John and Aradia and Vriska and then we shall have all of the God Tiers. All of them. (I hope you picked up on the naming schema~). I already knew about Jkioan and Noblewwyn's shenanigans with jolly fat golden men and large stone overcompensating pillars, but thank you for offering the information.

I presume your island is north of us, correct?

Sorry for the late reply, I am simultanously RPing and wanted to make sure I got my tech path right.

I haven't responded yet, but it raises some interesting points:

*Kuro has met his eastern neighbor. Knowing who that is will reveal our eastern neighbor by process of elimination.

*With Kuro already having finished AH, we should ask if he has spotted any Horses yet. If they are on the starting island, then we can probably surmise where they will be popping up for us.

*Kuro's request is an interesting one. We can beat him to Judaism if we want to (which would be good for border popping the third city), but that would probably antagonize him. Alternatively, we could get it ourself but offer to spread religion to him in return (aka hinduism for more shrine income).

At this point I'm inclined to let him go for it, but asking some sort of favor in return (no idea yet as to what, but I'm sure we can come up with something interesting). The reasoning is that keeping Kuro as an ally will almost certainly be more beneficial to us, and we don't know what NobleHelium and Lewwyn are up to right now. If they beat Kuro to Monotheism, we lose nothing and can even get some kind of concession out of it. In addition, this could allow us to ignore Masonry and Monotheism for the time being and consider getting the Shwedagon Paya instead.

Also, we still need to make sure that Kuro is fine with us scouting his island. Perhaps make that part of the concession for us not contesting him towards Judaism?

Nicolae Carpathia · August 1st, 2011, 06:56

Sounds good, I'm not particularly scared of Kuro's play, it's NH I'm concerned about. I'd be fine letting him have Judaism, they're already ceding us 4 commerce from the trade routes and free scouting information. I also feel that Organised Religion will be extremely strong, considering we're spiritual and want to be pushing growth and infrastructure hard. You could always say that we'd be happy to let them land Judaism, but we're going to be prioritising Mono anyway because of its benefits to SPI.

I agree that we should drop a city at the copper/gold/fish site, though I'm a bit concerned about how we're going to be able pop its borders. The best thing to do is to either build a monument off the copper, or get some way of transferring over a missionary, or just hope for a lucky spread. Be a bit carefuls scouting with the warrior, don't send him too far east, the last thing we want is for him to run into Ioan or NH and them holding it to ransom.

Also let him know that MSPA owns.

SleepingMoogle · August 1st, 2011, 07:00

Yeah.. getting out a quick monument (possibly aided by a chop) is probably the fastest and easiest way to expand borders for the city. I doubt we'll get to OR in time for a missionary even if we switched focus to it now, and hoping for a lucky spread is rather silly.

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