Suboptimal IV: Indonesian Insanity

[suboptimal]

My thinking for taking D&P to one turn is to have a policy card swap in my back pocket if I need it while working towards Feudalism. It's also a prerequisite for Theology on the R&F civics tree so would need to get done at some point. Stirrups is 23 turns if I go non-stop, Feudalism is 16 non-stop with the inspiration, 24 without. I'll need some time (and faith) to get that many farms down so I think a slight diversion to D&P is OK from a pacing perspective. Also gives me time for getting a few more chariots out along with building gold reserves (Chariot -> Knight is 180 each and we won't be near Mercenaries yet).

I'm assuming DotF works as it provides the bonus "in friendly cities" as it is the same requirement/wording for upgrading troops in city-state territories.

Regarding the envoy, Woden doesn't have any envoys anywhere except for the first-meet bonus in Hattusa and one envoy in Carthage. I don't think we're in immediate danger of losing suzerainty there as Mysticism is probably not on his immediate to-do list (he's likely working towards Political Philosophy at this point). We'll be getting envoys with Defensive Tactics and Theology and can use one to help with Nan Madol if necessary. The question is whether or not the natural envoy @ Hattusa is a better option than getting from Lisbon, especially with the trade route yields from the island city.

I like the idea of chopping forests first and then using the faith for another builder for improvements there. I'll can chop out the three first-ring jungles, then use a new builder to farm the rice, mine the iron and one of the plains hills. With Magnus that should boost the city up to Pop 3 or Pop 4 relatively quickly and finish more than half a Campus.

I'll need to get the quadrireme to Punky's and then I'll buy the settler there and escort it to the island while the warrior clears the barbarian camp (can use the quad for ranged fire support to speed things up). A mainly seafaring route will get the city founded 7 turns after the settler is purchased; the quad will be at Punky's in 3 turns.

Also realized that Archduke's northern galley will be blocked by Boxer's borders and the southern one will be forced around the island as it can't go past Punky's. He'll see both cities but not be able to see inland of the coast. If I had plenty of to toss around I'd buy the genius crabs at Sound to make the strait impassable and slow Archduke down.

[Cornflakes]

Be cautious about spending gold as that will be very valuable for unit upgrades in the future.

What is your plan for getting rob mercenaries? That unlocks you UU ships in addition to half price upgrades. Would that be a better target for civics than Theology? What do you gain from unlocking Theology, other than Temples?

Gold from Lisbon instead of science from Hattusa is a good question. Lisbon gold would get you an extra Knight upgrade over 25 turns. Hattusa would get you 50 in that timeframe (not sure what that works out to be in actual tech costs)

[suboptimal]

I'm not planning on any gold expenditures unless something VERY important comes up.

Mercenaries would be worked towards after Feudalism is completed. Again, though, there needs to be a delay while we build up a quadrireme navy for upgrades to Jongs. Right now, though, it does seem like people are not settling coastal. Outside of us, perhaps Australia and at least one Scottish city no one has settled directly on the coast. We might not need a large navy in this game after all, though some sort of naval presence is going to be required if only as deterrence.

Theology eventually gets me Divine Right and Monarchy. Don't forget that Temples will be +4 and +4 with Choral Music. I think Monarchy is going to be our first available Tier 2 government and I'd go for it once Civil Service completes. That line also puts us closer to Theocracy.

I'll need to figure out how many chariots vs. how many ships to build and then set production in the coastal cities appropriately. At some point I may put in Maritime Industries and run both production cards.

I think Lisbon might be the better yield since the gold will help with upgrades. A trade route with Lisbon would also be available from the island city but Stockholm's route is the better one near-term. When I can get a harbor + lighthouse down for a trade route Lisbon would be a good second route.

Thought: complete Celestial Navigation sooner rather than later, place a Harbor at the island city upon founding, chop out jungles into the Harbor then the Campus at Pop 4; go Harbor -> Lighthouse -> Campus at that location.

[suboptimal]

With the discussion about tech/civics paths, builds, etc., perhaps a wider look at the current situation is warranted. It's also something I was criticized by the lurkers (hi there!) for ignoring in PBEM 10 during the middle stages of the game. I'll give that a quick rundown and then outline Classical Era Plan 2.0.

Macedonia

We're on opposite ends of the land mass, it's a pile of difficult terrain in between. Woden will be coming up on its "power point" in the tech tree and will have his GG in 18 turns or so, but has limited gold income to really get going strong. Nan Madol is the current conflict point. It's worth 10 per turn to us now and we need to have it around for a while, at least until we get Choral Music and some religious buildings. My expectation is that if he captures Nan Madol he'll raze it to avoid the possibility of a recapture.

Scotland

Archduke has muddled a little in our affairs, but it's in his interest to promote a stalemate over here. The lack of one on the other land mass in PBEM 11 is what made his strong position an unwinnable one. He has three cities, one of which is coastal given the galleys. He's also the strongest militarily over there and is tied for the cultural and science lead with Alhazard. His best bet is going to be to maintain military dominance while trying to out-tech the field, which will be difficult with Korea in the game.

pindicator

Picked up where Rowain left off. Has two cities but is on the verge of settling a third one. He’s behind everyone else in the game with respect to science and culture. I think if we give him a production boost by declaring war we can give him enough oomph to catch up a bit. Archduke has left Nicodranas rather unguarded (fromwhat we can see) and perhaps pindicator can threaten his backside a bit to slow him down.

Alhazard

I have to think he's geographically isolated or Archduke settled in a position that cut off Korea and Australia from each other as they haven't met yet. Given how weak his military I have to think he's successfully holding chokepoints. It also helps that Archduke doesn't have any strategics hooked up (actually, I don't think ANY of them do).

Where is this game going?

Barring a complete implosion or major gaffe I don't expect either of us to achieve supremacy over here. Will someone be able to achieve one over there? I don't think so. Archduke has military but two opponents to contend with. Unless he conquers one in the next 30-40 turns it might be too late to try.

Primary Objective

Don’t get killed by Woden. I think that we should maintain a strictly defensive position that makes it a very high cost operation to attack us. If/when Woden does attack and we’re able to put a very large dent in his military power then we perhaps consider a counterattack.

Secondary Objectives

- Stalemate Archduke. For that we need pindicator and Alhazard.
- Landlock the other continent. That’s achievable with some sort of navy to take out coastal cities. It doesn’t need to be very big given how things are going so far.
- Get cultural infrastructure built. I assume that someone will eventually raze Nan Madol. We can’t defend it against Woden forever (it’s too close to his core) and even if we did Archduke might come calling with a navy.

So what?

Well, it gets something for me (and perhaps Cornflakes) down in words to look at and discuss. Based upon the earlier discussion regarding techs & civics I think it helps to sort a few things out. In order to achieve defensive dominance we’ll need knights and swords. Why swords? Because the gap between knights and tanks needs to be bridged by something and that something will need to be muskets & infantry. To that end Stirrups and Mercenaries (for Professional Army) are the critical points. The Stirrups beeline has been discussed and generally agreed upon. The civics path, though, is a bit more complex – we’d want to have some sort of quadrireme fleet before Mercenaries obsoletes them. The bottom of the tree (specifically, Theology & temples) helps with the potential loss of Nan Madol in conjunction with Choral Music. Temples also increase our faith output for ship & builder purchases. We’d also be able to access apostles, which could get us Synagogues, which gets us more faith and culture. How to sort this all out?

Need to Have
- At least 6 chariots (260 native with Maneuver)
- At least 4 more quadriremes (240 native with Maritime Industries)

Good to Have
- Shrine at Punkys (65, gives +2 +2)
- Monument (+2) & walls at Old Friends. I should hold the Encampment until after Military Training for the 30% discount policy, rather than building the Encampment for the inspiration.
- More builders
- Walls at Sound, Punky’s and Boxer

Nice to Have
- Completed Gov’t Plaza at Punky’s to get Liang (or do we go off-track and get Moksha & promotion for +20% production to Holy Site buildings?)
- Completed Holy Site and Shrine at the island location
- Completed Encampment (126, 96 with discount policy) and placed Campus at Old Friends.
- Temple & Apostle at Sound (evangelize for Synagogues)
- A sixth city (but where?)

Production Rates

Sound: currently 11.5 for non units, 13.6 for units. Heavy Chariot w/Maneuver: 4 turns.
Punky’s: currently 6.3, will be 8.4 in two turns, 9.4 with Urban Planning. Heavy Chariot w/ Maneuver: 6 turns. Quadrireme w/ Maritime Industries: 5 turns. Shrine in 6 turns. Gov’t Plaza in 7 turns.
Boxer: currently 6.3, will be 8.4 once pop 3 is reached with Urban Planning
Old Friends: Currently 2.1, will be 6.3 in 4 turns with Urban Planning, can be up to 8.4 in 12 turns.

Build Plan

I’ll build 2 chariots (current build + 1 more) out of Punky’s and 3 out of Sound over that same time period (12-14 turns). Boxer will have completed its Campus and Old Friends its Monument. After that:

Sound: Walls → Chariots → Temple (if Theology is complete) or Granary (if not)
Punky’s: Shrine → Quad → Gov’t Plaza → Walls
Boxer: Walls→ Quad → Quad → Quad
Old Friends: Walls → Encampment [not waiting for Limes at this location]
Island: Granary/Holy Site → Shrine. I’ll start the Granary for the first chop 1E of the city center, then put the next two chops into the Holy Site and build it to completion before finishing the granary.

After the island settler faith will be used for a trader and builders for the time being.

Techs, Civics, Policies

Masonry → Archery → Horseback Riding → Stirrups (-1 turn) Celestial Navigation → re-evaluate

Military Tradition (-1 turn) → Games & Rec → Defensive Tactics → Feudalism → re-evaluate for run to Theology or Mercenaries based on game state.

Policies: Replace Colonization with Urban Planning and put God King in the wildcard slot when Revelation obsoletes. Replace God King with Caravansaries once I get a trade route running. That, in turn, will be swapped out for Maritime Industries, Veterancy or Limes as needed for builds.

[Cornflakes]

Good analysis. I agree that posture vs. Macedon should be defensive for the intermediate term until we get past Macedon's power era. It seems like gold will be tight, latest screenshot shows 91 +9/t. Chariots won't cost anything with Conscription so that's good. And you don't need to upgrade everything right away. A single knight immediately for emphasis, and enough gold for an emergency upgrade of 2 more should be sufficient given DotF advantage. You can station the heavy chariots along your northern border and in NM territory and then upgrade on whatever front is threatened when/if Macedon invades.

Why all the wall builds? For sure wait for Defensive Tactics, and even then why build them except in your front city to the north? Your east city is buffered by longer distance and your stronger military at Nan Madol and can hold off on walls until threatened. My suggestion would be to go ahead and build the encampment at Old Friends without the +30% policy card. The culture is more valuable than the production, and by delaying walls you can make up the production anyway through Limes. Ultimately the culture from the inspiration will shave a couple turns off Theology and eventually Divine Right.

I think you have enough swords for now. 2 on your east plus the warrior in the west will be enough to hold the border.

Side note, maybe get a Quad over to Nan Madol to cover Macedon's advance along the shore (and a 2nd or 3rd at least by the time Mercenaries completes so that you have a mini-squadron there to upgrade in NM territory).

Probably should move the existing slinger from Punky's to Boxer as it will be more useful at the border and ready for an emergency upgrade. Macedon can reach Boxer quicker than your military can reinforce from Nan Madol so probably should send the first couple Heavy Chariots to that front to bolster defenses. A misionary charge for spreading DotF as well. First charge from the missionary purchased at Punky's can convert Boxer before heading east to NM. Once the island city is settled your warrior can swim back ready for an emergency upgrade as well. Boxer is the one city it might make sense to build walls before Limes. Depends on how much notice you will have.

[suboptimal]

Two reasons for the walls -- one, I'm paranoid. Two, with walls in place Woden needs to bring a battering ram with the forces. That slows him down a little if he wants to keep his hetairoi with his hypaspists.

Woden has yet to find our borders. Most of the land activity has been from his south, not the west. Therefore I expect him to build his forces and go after Nan Madol with his GG first, then turn west to go find me in my probable location. While I'll keep an advance unit somewhere between Boxer and Carthage to watch for anything I expect Old Friends to be the front line. It's also the shorter route to his supply lines. I do not expect him to bring the same numbers to bear that Archduke did in PBEM 6, though.

Getting a quad over there will take some time -- the one I have can go over once I get the settler across the channel. Speaking of which I'm going to check the save to see if I can buy a settler on the coming turn and get it across the strait before Archduke's galley arrives.

For the missionary the Shrine at Punky's won't be done for some time -- I'd like to get the missionary built at Sound and over to Nan Madol ASAP. Once I get the city converted I'll bring it back for Boxer. That will actually be faster than waiting for Punky's shrine to be built since that'll take 12-14 turns to get done. Have to see how the faith budgeting works with the settler, though. Edit: I'll have 385 as of start of Turn 66

[suboptimal]

Posted the patch notes in the general thread.  Of note for this game:

- pillaging values reduced (science & culture pillages are 15, healing is 50) and scale with era
- Wall hit points are doubled for all three tiers.     It also appears that Urban Defenses give a city 400HP.
- policies that give increased production work on old units (didn't know that it didn't do that)
- DotF has been nerfed to +5 from +10.  About time, but sucks for this game.     Still going to take it as a belief, though.
- production overflow issues corrected & modifiers are backed out of production overflow


The trade route reporting has also been updated, so that should be interesting to see.  Gotta disable CQUI for the patched turn though I'll try loading T62 with it enabled to see if it is broken or not. Also don't know if the patch is out as of right now or not.

[suboptimal]

Turn 63

OK, patch notes are in. Covered what applies in the prior post, still feel that the +5 from Defender of the Faith is better than a +0 from not having it, so it’s still “on the menu” as it were. I immediately conduct some housekeeping and go to switch civics from Drama & Poetry to Military Training. Hmmm...minor detail – Games & Recreation is a prerequisite. Completing that civic will add 7 to the cost of a project, making my prayers cost 84 instead of 77. That would cause the prayers to require another turn. I stay in D&P for one more turn. Looking at the GPP race Australia has appeared to have completed a project – their turns to completion has dropped to 9. That’s nice, but unless you are getting 25 GPP this coming turn you won’t make it.

Let’s get right to the action. Nan Madol:




Woden has killed the warrior, Nan Madol upgraded its slinger to an archer and the warrior moved in the way of my planned route. I’ll hang tight here and switch positions the instant it becomes clear. He’s also backed his archer off and moved the warrior towards Carthage. Speaking of Carthage, you can see in the upper left that Woden has an archer engaging the warrior that’s wandered over. Looks like the warrior was able to inflict some damage. Since I’m looking around up here my two northern units continue closing back in on Pella and the galley continues around the coast.

Over on the island the barbarian camp appears to be land-based as a scout has shown up next to my warrior. I’m going to ignore it and hit the camp first. I’ll let Stockholm bat cleanup on it. My quadrireme continues to play leapfrog with Archduke.

With the settler purchase I have two options. The first is to buy from Sound now, embark with the quadrireme on Turn 65 and found on Turn 72. I wouldn’t lose a population in Sound given its current food situation. The alternative is to buy one in Punky’s, dropping the city temporarily to Pop 3. I’d buy on Turn 65, embark on Turn 66 and found the city on...Turn 71. Punky’s would take some time to grow back to Pop 4 but gains the 3 marsh in 5 turns. I think I’ll do that as it’ll give me a bit more and out of Sound - I’d be able to work the pearls again and that would make up for not working the pearls at Punky’s.

Time for some builder love. Builder at Sound moves to the iron and will chop the forest for a shrine next turn. Builder at Punky’s moves south across the river and mines the grassland hill. That’s my third mine and gets me the Apprenticeship eureka. Good thing I did that now and not when I was planing on massive overflow in a couple of turns. At Old Friends I farm the floodplain...2 down, four to go for Feudalism’s inspiration. That city will grow in three turns. I’ll mine one grassland hill and one plains hill with this builder. Slinger heads for Punky’s.

With the warrior over in Scotstralia, I move NE and will cross the rivers here next turn:




There are Scottish borders visible to the northeast so I’ll check those out and leave Australia behind for now. I want to get as much ground as possible between this warrior and Australia. Once the levy expires it can go on its merry way (or the AI can fortify it since there’s no path home ) and I’ll give pindicator a gold countdown to a DoW.

The last to move is the galley over by Korea. The little island to the north looks...intriguing…




I think this island may connect to a chain that runs towards Hattusa. There might be some interesting locations up here. This island has at least one more land tile to the east of the river source. This island is part of the same continent as Korea so there may be a different luxury or two hiding up here if there is a chain and it’s all part of the same continent.

I will say that if this were an SP game I’d be putting a settler down on the truffles NE of Lisbon. That’s a 223 city center with another such tile right next door and a 2-resource Kampung (or Harbor) location on the coast. Alhazard is the only one over here right now and it’s not in his loyalty influence. Of course, I’ve also done one unorthodox move this game and maybe that’s enough…




Macedonia is 12 turns from recruiting the Great General. We’re at the point where we can make peace so I can see his economic situation. He has 78 gold in hand and no income, even if he’s working the copper he acquired at Alexandria. He’s also started a Government Plaza there as well. Outside of that second copper resource he has no other means of increasing his income at present.

My comment a few posts ago about strategic resources on the other continent was incorrect. Pindicator has iron and horses, Archduke has iron and Alhazard has horses connected.

Cornflakes – opinion question for you. If I chop and mine at Sound the GFH becomes a GH mined and stays 22. If I chop the hill and then Kampung I’d trade a 22 tile for a 2122 tile. I’m thinking that’s a very good trade and I can mine the hill with another builder in a dozen or so turns (when I’ve got the population to work it). Sound would grow to 7 population in...10 turns, though would slip back to content status until I get a new luxury hooked up.

Regarding the trade route discussion – Lisbon wants a trader as its quest. I could, in theory, put the next envoy into Hattusa for the science and send the trade route from island to Lisbon. It might be at risk with Archduke in the area with galleys, but that’d get me a ton of plus the 2 I’d have been getting from the Stockholm route.

[Cornflakes]

I like Kampung idea at Sound. 2/1 is a fine trade for 1

Envoy plan sounds good, even if you need to keep the western galley in the vicinity to guard the trade route to Lisbon.

EDIT: you can move Amani around to other CS to farm first-suzerain era points. Maybe hit Lisbon first since it’s on the other continent, then Hattusa, then park her long-term in Stockholm for the GPP yields.

[suboptimal]

Stockholm in R&F only provides extra GPP if the districts have buildings. Given that we won't have district buildings in anything other than Holy Sites that's not the city-state we need right now. Suzerain of Lisbon, OTOH, means the sea-based trade routes cannot be pillaged. Amani can breeze through Hattusa and Stockholm en route to Lisbon. Of course, that also means finding faith or production for a trader in the current budget. Maybe one of the island chops goes into a trader instead of the Holy Site.

The question is when to release the suzerainty of Carthage? I want to see if I can get a little pillaging with the sword in at Pella (horse and farm) unless Woden sues for peace in the interim. If he does that I'll relocate Amani to Stockholm immediately while waiting for the envoy for Hattusa.

I ran some numbers with the increased science yields from Sound's lake as well as production at Old Friends. I'll need to switch to the Encampment now in order to finish it in a reasonable time frame (T84-ish). Feudalism and Stirrups would both be at boost - 1 turn around EoT80. Feudalism with no boost would complete around EoT85 or so.

With the shrine at Sound faith generation will be at 13.6 or so per turn. The next builder is 100. We'll need one builder on farm duty if we want the inspiration for Feudalism. We need 4 more farms - 1 at Old Friends, 1 at Sound, 1 at island, 1 at Punky's. I think the best bet here is to put down a farm instead of a mine at Punky's now, buy a builder on Turn 71/72 at Island, mine the iron and not chop until Magnus is established (EoT76), then buy a builder on the mainland for 2 farms (Sound & Old Friends) and a second at Island (farm rice, mine a hill, maybe another chop if the forest is acquired).