[SPOILER] Suryavarman II of Maya - Whosit & Ravus Sol

[Whosit]

Perhaps, but at the same time, it seems like it would also be bad for my empire if I gave Tredje the chance to expand into my sphere of influence.

[Lewwyn]

Perhaps, but at the same time, it seems like it would also be bad for my empire if I gave Tredje the chance to expand into my sphere of influence.

It's possible that you could negotiate a settlement treaty with him considering what seem to be peoples "designated land boxes". Maybe this is one of those places where you could actually use a NAP to your advantage. Have him sign an agreement about lake settlement along with the NAP to give yourself time. Also, gives you some more "peacefulness" with him for when he does get cataphracts. Possibilities, I suppose.

[Whosit]

Wow, I didn't realize it had been so long since I've posted. I've become quite busy and the days all kind of blurrr together. Um.... so I did settle that city next to Tredje. Oh well! I'm teching Aesthetics in 2 turns. I want the Statue of Zeus, maybe make me less of an appealing target. I almost want to do it in that border city for the extra culture! But that is probably silly and dumb and would make it more of a target. Maybe in NoteShortASong, but that wouldn't really help with border control.

Trying to get more Settlers out to catch up. Could pop either a Great Engineer or Great Scientist soon, but I'm not sure which I want!

Also, long convo:

me: Hey.
Gaspar/Nakor: hey... 1 sec
Sent at 9:17 PM on Monday
Gaspar/Nakor: back
what's up?
me: Hm... wait, who am I talking to this time?
Sent at 9:20 PM on Monday
Gaspar/Nakor: lol, Gaspar. Nakor's still asleep most likely
me: OK.
I know this was weeks ago, but is there still something you wanted to arrange?
Sent at 9:22 PM on Monday
Gaspar/Nakor: Well, mostly what I wanted to do was discuss some sort of diplomatic arrangement. Before the game slowed down a bit, my conversations with Kyan and Tredje were a little weird, like they were trying to "court" us or something.
Sent at 9:24 PM on Monday
Gaspar/Nakor: And I sort of figured you'd see some of the same, as the other "middle" civ. So I thought if we colluded a bit, we could work that to our mutual advantage, as we hope to catch up
Not sure what you think about that
me: I haven't really been courted.
I think that you and Nakor are seen as the guys to get.
I think that I'm seen as too weak to really be of much use.
Sent at 9:27 PM on Monday
Gaspar/Nakor: There's probably some truth to that, but I think that will change as NAPs get closer to expiring and that sort of thing. I still see Kyan as the long term winner. He landed Pyramids this turn and is up to 10 cities. Tredje for some unknown reason decided to start building defensive wonders and stopped settling. Also this is really early to pop a Golden Age.
Sent at 9:29 PM on Monday
Gaspar/Nakor: The very little that Kyan gives away when he talks makes me wonder if he's not planning on invading Malakai in 25T or so. So I'm not at all sure how that will work out for us.
me: He suggested to me that he'll hit GE eventually.
But also suggested that would be after Tredje was dealt with.
Though I suppose "deal with" could mean "sic on someone else."
shrugs
Sent at 9:32 PM on Monday
Gaspar/Nakor: Yeah, I don't really know how its all going to play out. I guess I just don't trust any of them, but I think that we're the most logical allies given our relative positions, so I wanted to get your take on that before whatever fireworks happen. I do think we won't see any real action any sooner than T100, but I could be wrong.
me: Probably not before T100 as most people here aren't traitorous bastards like me.
Well.
At least, I'd consider breaking a NAP if it would give me sufficient gain.
Gaspar/Nakor: lol
Sent at 9:35 PM on Monday
Gaspar/Nakor: It would really depend on the situation for me. Largely whether or not the person I'd be backstabbing deserved it or not. I certainly wouldn't think twice about breaking a NAP with GE in your position.
me: Yeah. Unfortunately, he caved, and now it's not worth the effort.
I think we're in an arms race, though. Or, at least, he thinks we are.
Since his power keeps going up.
I'll try to keep a closish second.
Gaspar/Nakor: Yeah, he's built a LOT of units.
me: He has more cities than me, now, though, which pisses me off.
I'm not sure how I let that happen.
Gaspar/Nakor: Well
Have you seen his GNP? He's probably breaking even at 0 at this point.
me: True....
I've had to resort to unusual measures to keep myself afloat.
Eh.
Oh, by the way, if anyone asks (besides GE), you've made some shadowy deal with GE behind my back.
I'm hoping to give Kyan that impression.
Hmm....
Gaspar/Nakor: I'll tell you this, I've definitely never built this many courthouses this early in an MP game.
me: No, wait, what if he asked GE....
Gaspar/Nakor: Hrm
well, if its shadowy, maybe GE wouldnt tell him?
Though, I think GE has tried to cozy up to Kyan
me: Nah. It'd probably be enough if Kyan just thought I suspected you.
Then you could be all like "naw, we didn't do anything, but that Whosit sure is paranoid!"
But I haven't really had a chance to drop that hint yet.
Also, ha, courthouses, I need those.
Never would have thought Organized would be useful in this game.
Gaspar/Nakor: Yeah, I wish I was Exp/Org, I'd get more out of that than Fin
Sent at 9:41 PM on Monday
Gaspar/Nakor: But I'm happy to go along with whatever regarding Kyan
me: It should probably be something smart, though, and not certain to backfire.
Gaspar/Nakor: yeah
I mean what would be ideal would be finding some way to get Tredje and Kyan to war while we carved up GE.
Sent at 9:44 PM on Monday
me: Yeah.
Hmm.... how could we do that....
What's your relationship like with those two now?
Are they still trying to get in your good graces?
Sent at 9:45 PM on Monday
Gaspar/Nakor: Yeah, sort of
Kyan's diplo is weird, one day he desperately wants to be your buddy
next day hes EP bombing us without saying anything
Tredje definitely wants to cozy up to us though
me: Hmm... hm hm hm hm
Well, let's think about this.
The end result is Kyan vs. Tredje.
The means matter little.
So, you'd side with whoever seems the most likely to not be batshit insane.
But... crazy enough to go to war.
I wonder... suppose my relation to you was more like... pawn...
You could say to either: Yeah, me and Whosit will go all kung-fu on the other guy... if you fight, too.
We both build up
But when the fireworks start, we hit GE or something.
Or just sit around.
Gaspar/Nakor: Yeah, that could be the play actually
Once we start militarizing to invade GE
Try and get them to believe we're hitting the other one
and that basically we'll only hit the other one if they lead the charge
me: Something like that.... man... I should make an attempt to locate Ravus...
I think he's just gone, but this would be his speciality, I think.
Gaspar/Nakor: Yeah, be nice to have a diplo specialist
Nakor and I trade off, there are some people I work better with, some he works better with
me: And I'm just me.
anyway...
I'll poke around a bit, but the burden will probably be on you.
And we'll need to tightly coordinate.
One small slip-up could undo this.
Gaspar/Nakor: Yeah
me: Gotta find out the right buttons to push to get them to dance for us.
Gaspar/Nakor: Exactly, that's why I wanted to talk with you early enough that we have time
With all the NAPs and all the room to expand, we still have a while before anything really heats up
So we can probe a bit and try and find the best way to motivate them to, um, dance
me: Kyan is probably concerned about Cataphracts. I'd bet some gold that that is the real time bomb, not so much the space issue.
Tredje will have to hit someone, or it's a waste.
Gaspar/Nakor: Yeah
Tredje has CS and is in a GA though, he could have guilds very soon if he beelined it
Thats what I'd do if I were him. Cata's would go through any of us like a hot knife through butter at this point. I don't think anyone is close to engineering
and even Pikes vs Cata's is at best a draw
me: Yeah...
Urgh... I don't want to have to beeline military techs.
Gaspar/Nakor: lol, I was actually just thinking that
me: Honestly, while wooing either is fine...
Tredje might be best iif possible since we know he won't hit us (right away) in retaliation
Gaspar/Nakor: Yeah, doesn't matter which one starts it, so long as one of them does
Yeah, well with the GWall and Chichen Itza and Cata's, I definitely wouldn't even think about warring with Tredje before Rifles.
Itd be too bloody even if you did win
If he carries it offensively though, he loses most of that advantage
Question is how do you get Kyan to ignore that
me: That's what we have to find out.
Also have to prepare for the possibility of payback once our mark realizes they were duped.
Gaspar/Nakor: Yeah
That's the tricky part lol
Key is if we do invade GE, we have to make sure we can win quickly
though with his economy, shouldn't be hard at all to tech past him
me: Hm...
Heh.
The real double-reacharound would be for you to convince GE to declare on me at the appropriate time.
Say you'll split me with him.
And have your army waiting in my territory to smash his
Gaspar/Nakor: That's actually perfect
because it gives us plausible deniablity with Kyan/Tredje
"Oh, we would have helped, but GE invaded"
me: Yup.
I roughly estimate that this plan has a 20% chance of working, but it's epic enough that I'd go for it.
Gaspar/Nakor: I like iy
*it
I'll see what Nakor thinks and get back to you, but we have time. Just need to start setting the wheels in motion so it doesn't look quite so obvious
Damn
me: ?
Gaspar/Nakor: I guess this means I have to start talking to GE again
me: Ha ha, yup.
Don't tell me you cut off diplo...?
Gaspar/Nakor: no
but we sort of talk to him on a need to basis
mostly because it hurts our head too much
me: Is he the Templars of our game?
Gaspar/Nakor: lol
Excellent analogy
me: (I burned down his embassy... or would have, if that was a thing)
Sent at 10:06 PM on Monday
Gaspar/Nakor: Alright, I gotta walk the dog. Let's just try to make sure we keep coordinating regularly. This will all be very delicate
and like you said, possibly explode spectacularly in our faces
me: We should probably actually make a chart of what we tell who
Gaspar/Nakor: That makes sense
I'll go through tomorrow and put something together that says where we are with everyone to this point. Probably a good idea anyway, I can't remember what I said half the time
me: Yeah.
Have to remember which lies you've told who and when.
Gaspar/Nakor: lol, yeah
I've tried not to lie too much to this point, mostly just to steer folks in a direction here or there
save the lies for when they really count
me: Yeah.... that.
Well, anyway, we'll coordinate more.
I'll try to keep my sane hat on.
Gaspar/Nakor: lol, sounds good
Sent at 10:12 PM on Monday
Gaspar/Nakor: Alright, I'll catch you around, have a good one
me: Later.

Short version: Kyan and Tredje have been trying to woo Gaspar/Nakor, probably because they're the third place guys who could sway a fight. After some thought, I suggested we try to make use of that to get them to fight each other. I play the part of willing slave to Gaspar/Nakor, they offer to back either leader in a fight against the other, but secretly we'll just attack GE or something while Kyan and Tredje duke it out. And to top it off, Gaspar/Nakor convince GE to declare war on me the same time that Kyan/Tredje declares on the other so that we have an excuse not to fight!

Get all that? Yeah, it's so complicated, it couldn't possibly fail! Gonna have to make a flow chart for this.

Sorry to be brief, but I don't really have time for much more right now....

[Rowain]

Short version: Kyan and Tredje have been trying to woo Gaspar/Nakor, probably because they're the third place guys who could sway a fight. After some thought, I suggested we try to make use of that to get them to fight each other. I play the part of willing slave to Gaspar/Nakor, they offer to back either leader in a fight against the other, but secretly we'll just attack GE or something while Kyan and Tredje duke it out. And to top it off, Gaspar/Nakor convince GE to declare war on me the same time that Kyan/Tredje declares on the other so that we have an excuse not to fight!

Get all that? Yeah, it's so complicated, it couldn't possibly fail! Gonna have to make a flow chart for this.

Sorry to be brief, but I don't really have time for much more right now....

Finally some good and tried Whosit-diplo and war-plans

[Rowain]

Hey Whosit. Any news from your Empire?

You know it is strange to have a Whosit-thread and me making a double-post with 6 days inbetween :neenernee.


PS: hope it aren't RL-troubles that keep you from updating.

[Whosit]

I wouldn't call it real life "troubles," but I am very, very busy, to the point that I haven't really been playing the turns on time in a week or so. Of course, the turn schedule is all wacko now, anyway, but, yeah, that's why I haven't been updating. Things should probably let up soon, though. Hopefully that means more updates, unless I just sleep for a week.

Anyway, I need to get back in the habit of checking the log each turn. If I had, I would have known that I missed the Statue of Zeus (Kyan got it) last turn. ARGH!! That's what I get for forgetting about the Monument Requirements. If I had gotten those built ahead of time, I think that I would have gotten the Wonder. I really wanted to have a deterrent like that. Great Library and UNIVERSITY OF SANKORE got nabbed, the former by Kyan also, the latter by Tredje. I am so freaking behind on techs. Just finished Calendar, working on Code of Laws now. I'm kind of at a loss for how to catch up at this point.

Anyway, Barbs are continuing to be a big nuisance. Had to pop a couple more Axemen out at EveShortANing because the city still seems to be a focal point and the one Chariot and Holkan weren't cutting it. Need to get more settlements out to my east.

Two turns until Great Engineer pops and I hope that the Parthenon is still available then. I'll be kind of pissed if I miss it.

Still doing rather dismally in score and demographics. 4th place in score, still vying with Malakai for that "honor." The only guy with a GNP worse than me is GE, and I'm still in a solid 4th place for Hammers and Food. Best GNP is more than double mine, and Food is about 100 more than me. I guess I need to spam more Settlers, but it's looking like I need to put more and more cities on Wealth to keep my slider high. Blurgh. Maybe I should let CoL finish and whip Courthouses everywhere before I settle more.

Anyway, that's pretty much it. I'm #1 in soldiers by a slim margin, for whatever that's worth. Chopped a couple of Catapults out at the lake city for lack of better things.

Not a lot of diplo news. Will probably Open Borders with Tredje, as most everyone else seems to have done so and I could use a few more foreign routes.

[Whosit]

So.

Great Engineer ==> Parthenon. Hoorjay? It was the only Wonder available to me, but as I plan to make DropShortALiter a Great Person farm, probably not a terrible investment. Still sore over mucking up with the Statue of Zeus.

Taoism was founded. I'm just.... yeah. Also:

Sanibona Whovus

How goes it in the Crazy Empire?

I was wondering if the Work-Boat offer was still on the table? And whether there was some room for negotiation? I would like to offer you the following:

*75G up front and 1G/turn
*Extend our NAP to turn 125
*Open Borders [can close again after the Work-Boat is passed over if you like]

Sobanana

Amb. GingerEagle

Rather surprised to see this. Almost... almost tempted to consider it.... but being able to net those Fish probably is more meaningful to him than a pittance of gold. I'll probably just refuse, unless any a' you lurkers can think of a good reason not to be an ass about it.

Still 4th place in most everything. At least I seem to have a relatively 4th place score: Malakai is falling behind, probably due to having even fewer cities than... anyone. Gonna get a new Settler out and start expanding east. Code of Laws just finished, so I'll be whipping Courthouses everywhere as soon as possible. Will probably save me 15-20 gold overall, but, hey, need whatever I can get.

I'll add pictures again someday. Maybe.

I'm going to make a quick pit-stop for Drama. Want a few theatres available, and the Globe Theatre, of course. Not sure which city it should go in.... Sigh. Cities that make good Great People farms also make great Draft Farms, but I'll have to find a new place. After that, Civil Service for sure. Gotta pick up Iron Working, too... I just feel like I'm falling behind so much, and very worried about being behind by some critical techs. So many cities being put on Wealth, it's crazy.

[Whosit]

Alright, Forges are done in most cities, with CoL in, FINALLY getting the Courthouses in. Larger cities will build them in a few turns, smaller ones will whip as soon as possible. Capital is working on a Settler (Forge after that). Nabbed Drama, will build a few theatres in border cities, and now on to Civil Service. Christianity was also founded last turn.

Lurkers: Those who can answer, I'm still open for suggestions or ideas on the GE deal. Inclination is to decline, but eh.

Oh, and something of note:

Cities: 7
Workers: 22

I'm not sure that I have enough Workers, either.

[Rowain]

I don't know the financial situation so 'No clue' if the 75 gold are worth it. OTOH you are still planning to attack him some time in the future so that deal might give him a feeling of wrong security .

[Whosit]

Oh, yeah, I guess context would be helpful. Hmm.... We'd burn through 75 gold in ONE turn at 100% science. He'd gain +3 food for quite some time. He's probably getting the better deal.

You have a point that it could make him feel secure, but no way to really know that for sure. I think he'd get the better deal, though.