Shoot the Moon Wrote:Also, next turn WK should make sure to end turn first. There are some nice Kremlin-powered whips I'd like to make use of
Likewise, been growing out my cities in anticipation of this
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Our Strategy....You Probably Haven't Heard of It
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Sure thing, although it's not like I haven't been playing first for a long time now.
Since we don't need an Engineer for Kremlin, it looks like we'll have a spare GE to use somewhere (not counting the one rushing my Wall Street). Anyone got any ideas? The best I can think of is is either using him for Shoot's Wall Street if we get that Prophet, or saving him for Cristo, Eiffeil or 3 Gorges later on.
The Cristo Redentor, Eiffel Tower, and Three Gorges Dam are all banned :neenernee
I posted a sign on your engineer in game for you to move him back into your territory to eventually rush Wall Street. As for our later Great Engineer, idk. Rushing Shoot's Wall Street doesn't sound half-bad, though he would have to build eight banks first  I'm leaning towards just saving Shoot's eventual GE for a Golden Age.EDIT: Only right on 2/3 
Eiffel and 3 Gorges are thankfully banned (well the ban list actually says "Hoover Dam" but I'm going to assume that means 3 Gorges
 ). That being said, Cristo would be very, very powerful indeed. Perhaps a tech path of something like Physics --> Artillery (to defend safely for a while) --> Electricity --> Radio?That being said, I guess we should actually discuss what we want to research after Railroad. I know Dave like MT, but I don't really see cavalry adding anything to the attack on team 2. They aren't better than anything else we can produce but can't be drafted like rifles. I personally don't think they're worth the beaker cost.
April 2nd, 2012, 20:00
(This post was last modified: April 2nd, 2012, 20:21 by WarriorKnight.)
Hmmm, I was going by the ban list in the planning thread, but it seems that wasn't the final version. Goes to show how much I know about the game rules. Anyway, with Christo not banned for some reason, we should definitely try and grab that at some point.
I agree with Shoot that while cavs are nice, they aren't going to be contributing that much (plus MG's are better anyway) so we can delay until we need WP. As for tech path, dave and I probably need Combustion right after Railroad for Destroyers and stuff. The beeline to Radio misses a couple of cheapish techs that are useful (namely Corporation and Biology) and aside from Cristo, Electricity -> Radio doesn't actually give us much at all. We'll also need Assembly Line for factories and power some point soon to catch up to Team 1 in MFG.
This has been mentioned a couple of times elsewhere, but I'm just going to discuss it here since it seems most relevant here. Anyhow, I don't think we should spend gold upgrading units. This is for two reasons. First, I think having the gold to continue to catch up in research will be more valuable. I doubt once WK is out of surplus we will be able to sustain both of us at 100% even in state property. And even if we do, I think that gold could be better used with Kremlin boosted cash rushing, especially if we land Cristo to allow easy access into US.
Second and more important, I don't think upgrading will really change the outcome of the attack at all. Those units are still quite valuable just to soak up collateral even not-upgraded. As I see it, units say 50-70 (just random numbers, haven't actually looked at how many rifles there are going to be by the end) aren't going to see defense anyway most likely, they're just there to eat up collateral or mop up units on the attack after my cannons have decimated things. In essence, the units at the bottom of the stack serve their purpose of eating collateral without having to be upgraded. Shoot the Moon Wrote:Anyhow, I don't think we should spend gold upgrading units. This is for two reasons. First, I think having the gold to continue to catch up in research will be more valuable. I doubt once WK is out of surplus we will be able to sustain both of us at 100% even in state property. With Corp I probably can. Without it I'd guess I'm probably only 50-70gpt short or so. Shoot the Moon Wrote:And even if we do, I think that gold could be better used with Kremlin boosted cash rushing, especially if we land Cristo to allow easy access into US. I would like US eventually (because the other Government civics suck), but Cristo is still quite a while away and there are more important things to grab then Democracy ATM. Still, if we can't find a better use for the gold, I'd save it for this. Shoot the Moon Wrote:Second and more important, I don't think upgrading will really change the outcome of the attack at all. Those units are still quite valuable just to soak up collateral even not-upgraded. As I see it, units say 50-70 (just random numbers, haven't actually looked at how many rifles there are going to be by the end) aren't going to see defense anyway most likely, they're just there to eat up collateral or mop up units on the attack after my cannons have decimated things. In essence, the units at the bottom of the stack serve their purpose of eating collateral without having to be upgraded. This, however, I agree with. I think you said you'd have 40 cannons or so? That's quite a number and after you've done all the collateral you can do it probably won't matter how strong our units are. As for defense, MG's should be the only units defending unless we overrate how strong they are (with an immunity to collateral, and being lead by a Drill IV GG, I doubt it) and absorbing collateral can be done by any unit.
Oye, lots of topics to address.
[SIZE="3"]Tech Path[/SIZE] Having the Cristo Redentor allowed (seriously though, why the hell was it not banned) dramatically changes the metagame situation. I feel like we almost need to beeline it solely to deny it to Team #1. That being said, free civics swaps between Caste System and Slavery, or Free Speech and Slavery in the case of Shoot, would be really strong for our team. We would be able to get a lot more leverage out of the Kremlin. While Universal Suffrage is powerful and we'd like it eventually, I just don't feel like Democracy is worth the opportunity cost at this point in the game. I'm also going on some of the post-game discussion in my PBEM17 thread: Darrell & Krill Being Smart Their thesis is that cash-rushing is simply not as efficient as slaving. So, a beeline to get Cristo Redentor would take us through: Physics Electricity Radio There are some nice potential synergies here. The Great Scientist from physics would solve my current great person problem and give me the third great person I would need to get my 12-turn golden age underway. Electricity boosts our watermills, and gives us a lock on Broadway. Finally, radio itself gives us a lock on Rock n' Roll, submarines (for whatever they're worth) and most importantly, the Cristo Redentor. This tech path also leaves us at the cusp of bombers and fighters. However, there is a tremendous opportunity cost to this beeline - ignoring factories and coal plants even longer  As things stand, Team #1 already has a significant lead in terms of production boosting infrastructure, and I'm worried if we delay, things could get even worse. Also, we pass up WK's ability to instantly rush Wall Street for a huge cash boost with our first GE. The other long-term cost of delaying Assembly line would be putting us even farther away from Industrialization. So an assembly line beeline would look like this:Constitution Economics Corporation Assembly Line I could make use of Representation, and jails/mausoleums would be a welcome boost. Economics is a worthless tech, but Corporation would do significant things to boost our economy between +1 Trade Routes and Wall Street. Assembly Line hardly needs an introduction. Other Techs/Tech Paths Of Note Music -> Military Tradition Combustion Physics -> Artillery Biology You two have pretty much talked me out of MT approach. I do think, however, that we need to take Combustion before, or concurrently with Team #1. I believe we should research it next. Physics -> Artillery, and Biology are also worth considering, but I don't think teching towards either at this point would be a good idea. [SIZE="3"]Cash Upgrading[/SIZE] I see your point. I would prefer to sink the money into tech too. My worry is just that we come up short in the final battle for Beijing. Being less behind Team #1 in tech will matter little if Team #2 wins a culture victory in the meantime. My other concern regarding MGs is something I think WK brought up upthread - that they are not immune to collateral from CKNs I have not run a WB test yet but I'm worried what they might do to our machine guns. Lastly, the siege of Beijing is not going to be a one turn affair. Lewwyn is just going to pile cheap units in there to take hits, and I expect we're looking at a 2-3 turn affair, trying to eat our way through 100-150 muskets/jannisaries/catapults/longbows. 40 cannons may not even cut it when dealing with those numbers. With that in mind, we need as many high strength units as we can field to ensure we win, and can keep up the assault over multiple turns. So, can we see the composition of the final stack before making a firm decision on whether or not to cash-upgrade units in the invasion force? I don't think we need the gold for anything in the meantime.At any rate, on tech path, I'm leaning towards nabbing Combustion next, then taking the more conservative Assembly Line path. Going to sleep on it.
Worth noting, Darrell/Krill's discussion applied only to whipping off coast, which is a bit less applicable in this game. That being said, I do plan to start heavily whipping my cities that do have coast.
Anyone micro inclined care to run the numbers on whipping off mines? I know normally you never want to whip of grasshill mines, and I think it is size 6 (?) that it becomes ineffective to whip plainshill mines. How does that play out with Kremlin and railroads on top of those mines? In regards to upgrading: I've been keeping a pretty close eye on Team 2's unit composition, and they don't have all that many CKNs (and can no longer build them). I don't think I've seen more than 3 or 4 total in the game, and I've glimpsed most of their large stacks on my border. In regards to number of cannons: remember that after I bombard away city defense, nothing Team 2 has will have anywhere near even odds on the first cannon I go in with, especially when it is promoted along the city raider path. The vast majority of those cannons should survive the first attack and be free to attack again on the second turn if need be. |
