[SPOILERS - PBEM17] Kyan Does Dallas. The Orange Sensation.

[oledavy]

Thanks Seven! Appreciate the explanation

[Gaspar]

One other factor in favor of binary research (something I learned myself quite a bit in PBEM14) is that gold has several uses in game, whereas beakers only have one. Ultimately, by saving gold first and then researching afterwards you gain the flexibility to upgrade units, rushbuy something, offer an opponent a cash trade for something you really need, etc. While in most cases this isn't important, if your opponent shows up on your doorstep with a stack you weren't expecting, having a few hundred gold in the bank can be a huge boon.

Pretty much the only time it makes sense to eschew binary research long-term is if you're in the lead and want to conceal your true strength. There are short-term considerations like Seven mentioned as well.

[oledavy]

Thanks Gaspar!

1510 A.D.
16 Turns Into World War II

[SIZE="3"]Report from The Eastern Front[/SIZE]

This turn saw relatively little combat take place in the Eastern theater of operations.



Rego suicided the catapult from Bato against my stack. However, all the affected rifles were fortified and completely healed by the time I got the turn, courtesy of my supermedic.



I chatted with Shoot last night, finding out a variety of useful information.

I was mistaken in my last turn report when I said Shoot had razed the city of Mackoti. He kept it and got quite a haul of infrastructure, including a granary, courthouse, bank, grocer, harbor and jail.

Rego moved both of his destroyers that were healing in Bato out of the city to the northwest of Mardoc. He further moved his other two destroyers northeast of Profane, giving me a nice reprieve from being threatened by his navy. Apparently, Rego has another pair of destroyers in the north - but Darrell/Krill is fielding a quartet of them as well.

Rego pulled the new defenders of the oil tile from Mardoc, now staffed by a mere pair of wounded rifles. In the city of Zakalwe, Shoot's next target, he currently has a garrison of two machine guns and two rifles. On the intervening turn, Rego reinforced the oil tile yet again, bringing his army there up to eight machine guns, twelve rifles and a spear.

Shoot is planning on landing eleven infantry next to Zakalwe on t143. We're going to try and coordinate to stretch Rego's defenders and force him to pick between his oil and his cities. Shoot was not wild about my mapped out movement plan, correctly pointing out that I could not truly fork Plako and the oil tile and that Rego's rail network would allow him to defend wherever he chose. He favored me massing on the oil tile, forcing Rego to chose between Zakalwe and his oil.

Shoot is the MP pro here, however, at the end of the day, I'd rather be sitting atop a captured city than a desert tile - and my current plan gives me the ability to begin bombing down the defenses of Plako and get in position to take the city.





The blue lines in the screenshot show Rego's railway lines. The salmon arrows show future attacks against Commodore and Profane

My current plan for my main army is to continue moving it towards Plako. At that point, I can remain overlooking his oil tile or move adjacent Plako. With my reinforcements from the continent I have the options of:

1. Putting six rifles and five cannon next to his oil on turn 142.
2. Putting eight rifles and seven cannon next to his oil on turn 143.
3. Assaulting Bato amphibiously with eight rifles on turn 143.
4. Landing eight rifles and eight cannon next to Bato on turn 143 and attacking the following turn.

Currently, I'm leaning towards option four. This means Rego will open the save on turn 144 to find Bato, Zakalwe and Plako/Oil Tile; all under threat. He cannot possibly defend all three, so it will force him to abandon one or split his defenders. If I have the option to amphibiously assault bato on 143, I will take it, accepting the extra losses so he cannot cram more rifles/machine guns into the city before my attack. However, I doubt he will be so careless as to leave it open.

My navy getting in position:



Finally, this turn, I was unable to undo my mistake from the previous turn and got my workers out of Incan territory.


[SIZE="3"]Elsewhere...[/SIZE]



I do not like those upkeep and supply costs, the standoff in Rego's territory is not good for my economy.



Edessa completed the Heroic Epic. I queued up a East Indiamen in the screenshot to show how many hammers I can get with +175% modifiers in place for warships - granted, there was a significant overflow from completing the epic. After taking the screenshot, I started work on a market in Edessa, the city could really use the extra happy and I could really use the gold. The city is a behind on infrastructure thanks to many turns pumping out East Indiamen.

In tech news, I burned through my gold from last turn. Darrell got biology, and NoSpace researched rifling after delaying it for so long. Two turns until I finish combustion

Krill spent more EPs on me! This is slightly concerning.

NoSpace is now gifting Rego Hit Musicals Additionally, they built the Confucian Shrine They're looking scarier and scarier.

The Sistine Chapel is still available and I finally have Marble....

I'm thinking about building it in Constantinople after I complete the ironworks.

It's too late to try to gear up for a cultural victory, but it would be nice to add the great artist points to the great person pool in my national epic city. Besides, I can complete it in a mere four turns. If Shoot decides he wants it, I get the failgold. Would any lurker care to weigh in on whether or not I should go for it?

On a final note:



That's a lot less votes than there once were. That shrine in Zakalwe won't be having many pilgrims. I remembered that Pindicator was the Muslim holy city and Seven Spirits was the only other city of Rego's in which the religion was present (both now burned to the ground). I checked to see if the religion had been wiped off the map - but it lives on in one of the Indian cities.

[fluffyflyingpig]

One other factor in favor of binary research (something I learned myself quite a bit in PBEM14) is that gold has several uses in game, whereas beakers only have one. Ultimately, by saving gold first and then researching afterwards you gain the flexibility to upgrade units, rushbuy something, offer an opponent a cash trade for something you really need, etc. While in most cases this isn't important, if your opponent shows up on your doorstep with a stack you weren't expecting, having a few hundred gold in the bank can be a huge boon.

Pretty much the only time it makes sense to eschew binary research long-term is if you're in the lead and want to conceal your true strength. There are short-term considerations like Seven mentioned as well.

Note that extra cash on hand in single player can occasionally be a bad thing when it lets the AI extort more cash via demands.

[oledavy]

Note that extra cash on hand in single player can occasionally be a bad thing when it lets the AI extort more cash via demands.

Fortunately, I don't think that will be an issue this game

[SIZE="3"]Miscellaneous Musings[/SIZE]

Civic Switches

I'm seriously behind in making my late game civic switches.

I'm currently in:

Hereditary Rule
Nationhood
Slavery
Decentralization
Theocracy

<Insert Complaint About Not Being Spiritual>

I want to get to:

Universal Suffrage
Free Speech
Caste System/Emancipation
State Property
Free Religion

I need to revolt into the late game civics to boost my economy. I'll miss the extra happy and drafting from nationhood, but +2 gold per town is very powerful at this point in the game. I would prefer to stay in Caste System instead of Emancipation. However, my ability to do this will depend on whether or not the other civilizations of the world are willing to all forego Emancipation. I can foresee a future where Darrell, Shoot and I at at war with NoSpace, and the Indians make an anarchy-free switch into emancipation while we're all in caste system to cause unhappiness. I would rather not find myself in that scenario.

My teching plan for the near future is focused on getting these civic options online.

[SIZE="2"]Tech[/SIZE]

My Planned Tech Path:

Constitution
Economics
Corporation
Assembly Line
Liberalism
Communism
Democracy

Constitution and Economics are both pre-reqs for corporation, though the ability to build jails and custom houses will be nice. I need to get to corporation quickly to give my economy a boost from the +1 trade routes. Additionally, I'm currently working on getting banks online so I can construct Wall Street right off the bat and give my GNP a much needed boost. After that, I'll head to assembly line to get factories and infantry going. The idea is to shore up my defenses and capitalize on my dikes with the increased production from factories. Finally, it'll be on to liberalism, communism and democracy to unlock the last few civics I need; particularly State Property. About the time I start on Democracy, I'll kick off my golden age. I'll probably switch into Representation and Organized Religion for the duration of the golden age - which will mesh well with my infrastructure push and running specilialists for +100% great person points - then finish it out in the civics I listed above.

[SIZE="3"]Question for Lurkers[/SIZE]

Which city would you put Wall Street in? Jerusalem or Acre? I'm currently torn between the two.





Jerusalem has Oxford (thus the 300 bpt) and has more cottages. However, I recall its generally not a good idea to place both in the same city. I don't have a holy city or a corporate headquarters city to place Wall Street. Acre was chosen because its coastal (thus trade routes), and is the highest commerce city with slots still open. In the event I make Acre the Wall Street City, I will probably pave over those two grassland workshops with cottages to maximize income. On that note, how's the citizen management of these two cities?

More Tech Thoughts

The next key tech for this map is industrialism for battleships, tanks and especially, marines. However, I am still quite a ways away from that. If I end up going for a Space Victory, I'll definitely be heading here first to uncover aluminum. It's also on the path to computers for The Internet, which would be an amazing wonder to net in my situation. After I research combustion, I will have the ability to nab flight - also a key tech for this map. Besides, I really like the idea of having fleets of carriers running around. However, destroyers should be enough to keep me safe for the time being.

West Point

I'll probably get a third great general from this conflict soon. I was debating how to use him. My first thoughts were for an 8-move transport; then it occured to me that with a military instructor + West Point + drydock in a city, I could churn out level three warships out of the starting gate

My super-medic needs to get three more experience points before I can unlock West Point, and I need to research military tradition. However, if I am able to pull it off, I'll diverge from my tech path to go for it. Candidates for the West Point City right now are Cairo and Jaffa.

Diplomacy

The first dogpile was a complete success. This war actually worked better than I hoped, because it took NoSpace from the middle of the pack to be back on par with Darrell, and makes them an obvious target for another war. Agitating Darrell, Shoot and I by supporting Rego in this conflict is just icing on that cake. I almost got Darrell to declare on them once, and suspect I can pull it off the next time around.

The plan at this point is to try to work towards a 3v1 vs. NoSpace in the immediate aftermath of World War II: World War III, World War I part 2, Operation Sledgehammer 2.0, whatever you want to call it. I share two relatively small borders with NoSpace. I feel I'll be fairly safe, as I can use my navy to keep them at a distance. Darrell has not been in a major war yet, and has a large economic capacity. I feel like he would be a good match against NoSpace, but the numerical advantage between the three of us should give us a decisive advantage. My goal for the conflict would be to contribute as little as possible while not giving that appearance, and making a serious infrastructure push. I would provide naval suport via spamming destroyers, plus supplying SoZ induced War Weariness. To placate Darrell and Shoot, I might try to undertake some limited offensives (like take Overexposure ).

Novice and Spaceman have to be a little bored with this game. They didn't get their late game showdown with Ruff in PBEM13, so I would guess they're spoiling for a fight in this one. Their frequent thread updates suggest they're still at least mildly interested in this game. Darrell and Shoot are only half-heartedly playing at this point, so a war would keep their interest going.

So, my basic plan is to kick off another war, and then fight only half-heartedly and let Darrell and Shoot do the heavy lifting. While this is going on, I make a major infrastructure push of grocers, banks, dikes and factories, kick off a golden age and make my major civic swtich. Hopefully, I come out of the melee at near tech parity with the leaders and in good shape to pursue a domination or space race victory. I don't have a great chance of making this plan work, but it's the best I can come up with.

[oledavy]

Alright, enough rambling, back to the war.

This greeted me when I opened the save.



A good deal, considering I'm hurting for happiness right now. I checked the foreign relations screen and saw that they are also trading Hit Musicals to Shoot for Wheat and to Darrell for dyes. I've been trying to get Darrell to hook up that source of dyes so I can trade for it for awhile now, as the resource gives me +2 happiness in most cities thanks to my creative theaters. Annoying.... Also, Darrell and Shoot have now both opened borders with NoSpace.



Krill killed Rego's Combat IV destroyer! I'm not sure how he did it but way to go!

[SIZE="3"]Report from the Eastern Front[/SIZE]

No fighting took place this turn, all moves consisted of my lining up forces for next turn.



I managed to eke out a couple extra rifles for the attack force by drafting a couple cities. I now have eleven rifles and nine cannons in position to land beside Bato next turn.



I loaded some of the healthy rifles from Leningrad and moved them in position aboard the HMS Euralyus to land next to Profane on turn 143. In a couple turns, Rego is going to open the save to find 65 units next to four of his cities. In theory, this should crack his defenses.

Rego researched physics last turn, producing an airship in Plako. Shoot finished railroad.

To close things out, the food and GNP graphs:





"The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations."
- David Friedman

[oledavy]

Gah, life is crazy right now - the whole family is in town. Turn 143 in pictures.







Next turn is the big turn for this latest offensive against Rego. However, I just spoke to Shoot and apparentally I only have ten rifles and four cannons south of Plako? It sounds like Rego attacked and killed a lot of my units Hoping that's not the case.

[oledavy]

I finally got the save again this morning after a four day delay.

[SIZE="3"]Report From The Eastern Front[/SIZE]



Rego did attack my forces south of Plako, inflicting catastrophic damage. He pulled in all of his rifles for the assault, killing sixteen rifles (including my super-medic ). Furthermore, he left the rest wounded and ready to be mopped up next turn; all at the expense of only ten of his attacking riflemen.

On that note, lesson learned: the free upgrade for GG units is nice, but barring extreme circumstances, your super-medic should not be a unit that might end up defending.

This also torpedoes my chance at West Point.

C'est la vie.

I was a little stumped at first how Rego managed to pull this off, so I went back in the event log to figure it out. He led off by pulling a catapult from Zakalwe (his last remaining artillery unit) and suiciding it against my stack. This generated Subotai in the capital. Next he attacked with his airships, bringing down my top defenders. Finally, he expended Subotai to bring most of his combat I rifles up to 5xp for pinch. His abundance of Pinch Rifles meant that after he knocked off my top defenders, he was getting ~68% odds against my remaining rifles, which were mostly combat I. It was a well played great general and a move I did not foresee. I thought I had enough pinch rifles to keep my stack safe, and did not realize how close he was to another gg.

So, my hat is off to Rego for defending his capital so well. Rego, when you read this after the game, correct me if any of my conjecture is incorrect. Congratulations on an extremely well-played defense.



This left me with ten wounded rifles and four cannons on the tile. There's no defensive terrain for these rifles to run to, so in all likelihood he will mop them up next turn. Seems as though Shoot was correct that I should have remained by the oil tile. I dun goofed again

Here are other overview shots of the embattled Incan core when I opened the save.



In the east, Rego moved five machine guns into Profane, forestalling any attempt to capture the city. Also of note in the screenshot are Rego's four wounded destroyers with Darrell's own quartet nearby.



In the north, Shoot has severed the only rail link to the city of Zakalwe with that monster stack of his. I feel sure the city will fall to him next turn, and am really surprised Rego didn't throw more into defending it.



Finally the situation in the northwest. Shoot's forces continue to stand outside Mardoc; pillaging the mine last turn. My 2nd Army now sits next to the virtually undefended city of Bato.

I seem to recall something back from page eighteen of this thread:

Bato will never fall, no matter how many units you throw at that city.

Cue the theme music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bzWSJG93P8



After hitting the machine gun with my airships, my CR1 cannon was getting a 52% chance at retreating, so I took it. The cannon died, but I knocked the machine gun down to 4.6 strength. One of my unpromoted rifles came in and mopped it up at 97% odds, suffering no damage.



I got a rather nice haul of infrastructure in this city, a little too much for me to stomach burning (Seriously though, what is with Rego building all these jails?). I staffed it with a pair of pinch rifles. Next turn, I will be cramming four infantry, two rifles and a cannon into the city. Rego could liberate it in the interim, but I seriously doubt he has the forces to spare to take it back.



I moved the other eight rifles and cannons northwest to attack the city of Mardoc next turn; sending the HMS Lend-Lease through Ilios to get in position to bomb down the defenses of the city. I also have the option of moving onto that hill to the southeast next turn to threaten Plako. My stack is somewhat vulnerable while on flat ground, but Rego only has 5 airships and no rifles that aren't wounded (other than ones he drafts next turn). I'm curious if Shoot will say anything about me making a move towards 'his' city. He suffered pretty badly trying to take this little smudge earlier.



In the East, I moved the rifles near Profane inland towards Plako, continuing to threaten Profane in the process. The HMS Revelation bombed the defenses of the city then massed it with my frigates in the channel (hopefully Rego won't come after me with his destroyers). I put two rifles ashore on the hill overlooking the now unguarded oil tile. It doesn't have much significance any more. Rego is running low on population to whip into destroyers and needs every land unit he can to fend off the armies running around in his core. Nevertheless, after that prolonged standoff, it would be nice to finally take it

Near Plako, I did the only thing I could think of: I suicided my cannons against the defenders to bring their health down, and fortified my rifles on the tile to make them harder to dislodge next turn an allow them to heal a bit. All of Rego's rifles (16) are currently in the city, and none of them have above 9.2 health. Fingers crossed that my guys get lucky.

Of note in the screenshot are Rego's workers around Plako. He's currently paving over the mature cottages around the city with farms an workshops to deny them to me Spiteful, but I can't say I would do any differently.

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]me: kudos on virtually eliminating my inland stack
did not see that coming[/COLOR]
Dan: :-P
me: seems I stil have a lot to learn about war
[COLOR="Yellow"]Dan: me too
though there is one thing i've learned
1) avoid 3 on 1 dogpiles
so what's your plan now?[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]me: what's my plan?
take Plako before you finish paving over all those towns [/COLOR]
Dan:

So here's he situation at the end of the turn



The red arrows denote possible upcoming moves. A lot is going to depend what Rego does with his dwindling forces on his turn.

Last, but not least, the updated scoreboard:

Incan Losses (4,305 hammers)

1 galley
12 frigates
3 galleons
2 transports
3 quechuas
1 spearman
1 longbowman
8 catapults
2 cannons
3 machine gun
26 riflemen
4 musketmen
4 workers

Templar Losses (3,927 hammers)
2 macemen
2 musketmen
32 rifleman
3 catapults
5 cannon
11 East Indiamen
3 frigate
4 airships

For the mathematicians out there, I'm killing approximately 1.1 Incan hammers for every one I lose myself. Not nearly as good as I'd like to be doing, and it's only going to get worse after next turn Still I haven't had any cities of mine burned.

In power terms, I've lost 480,000 soldiers to his 461,000

[SIZE="3"]Elsewhere...[/SIZE]



Shoot and I talked over the long break and made a deal to trade airships for infantry at a one to one ratio. I moved four of my airships to Mackoti last turn and gifted them to him, just in time for his assault on Zakalwe. In return, he is going to drop off four infantry in Bato/Rostov for t145. I sent this email to him after I played my turn:

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Het Shoot -

I moved four airships to Mackoti last turn and gifted them to you. Please offload my four infantry in Bato, provided it is still in my hands when you get the turn. If not, message me tonight and I'll figure out somewhere else to land them. Let me know if you will need more airships, as I'll probably have to build those rather than pull from my existing forces.

Nice move cutting off the railway line to Zakalwe last turn, I expect we'll finally see it fall next time you get the save. Whatever forces you do not use for the assault on Zakalwe, which I don't expect will take more than a half dozen units, I would appreciate you moving southwest towards Plako to help take the capital. If you saw my post in the UN thread, Rego did a nasty number on my forces defending the city. He used a fresh GG to promote his slew or riflemen to pinch and trashed my forces. Additionally, he is paving over the mature towns around the city so time is of the essence if we want to get the full value out of our conquests.

Lastly, if you notice in the diplomatic screen, this turn I cancelled the 60-turn old iron deal, don't think you really need it anymore

Cheers!
Dave[/COLOR]

I also messaged Darrell with the location of Rego's destroyers. He just got back into the game and said he played the last turn rather fast.



I finally reached combustion at the start of this turn, and started on a two turn destroyer in Edessa.

Unfortunately, Combustion obsoleted whales, which served to add to my mounting happiness problems. I'm ran 60% science for this turn to get economics in one turn - I need to get to corporation sooner rather than later.

Here is the updated tech spreadsheet:



Yeah....I'm pretty far behind

During the last couple turns, Shoot researched Democracy, NoSpace got refrigeration then started on superconductors, and Darrell finished refrigeration. Looks like NoSpace are definitely going to go for a space victory (pun intended). Here's the tech screen:



This turn I finally cancelled the long-standing iron deal to Shoot.



I just noticed an error in that spreadsheet. Rego should have economics if he has corporation. Oops

And....End Turn.

When Rego opens the save, he faces the novel problem of not having enough units for all the things he wants to do. We'll soon see what he does...

Dan: hey - that save you sent me was only 307K
me: Did I send the wrong one?
[COLOR="Yellow"]Dan: oh nevermind
that is probably right
let me boot it up
see the damage
hmm i'm not sure this is right - it looks like your whole inland stack is obliterated?[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]me: :P
is it 1540, right?[/COLOR]
Dan: yea
me: enjoy my post in the UN thread?
Dan: oh i didn't see it
[COLOR="Yellow"]you better stock up on those tombstones ;-)
only 3 defenders in rostov?[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]me: yep
Care to liberate it?[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Yellow"]Dan: we'll have to see
unfortunately, as you're probably aware, i don't have all the forces i'd like to do all the things i'd like to do[/COLOR]

[oledavy]

Gah, this is where losing that monster stack south of Plako is really coming back to bite me. Shoot wants the city, but doesn't have the siege to take it. I have the siege to take it, but not the ground troops. He wants a two-pronged strike on the city, which I agree with as a tactical move. However, undertaking this action will allow him to take the city, which I cannot allow. The problem is the city forks both our new holdings pretty well, and both of us want it. If I still had all those those rifles, I could take the city myself and dictate the terms.

[oledavy]

I'm not completely sure if asking for an opinion on an in-game matter oversteps the lurker code of conduct (if it does could someone please enlighten me?). I say that because no one responded to my 'which city would be best for Wall Street' inquiry. However, I'm at a point where I could really use some input if it is permissible.

The fact is, my tactical blunder has put me in a spot where I need to wheel and deal with Shoot if I want Plako.

The Situation

As I explained briefly in my previous post. We're in a position where a combined effort from Shoot and me can probably take the city of Plako. Basically, I supply the siege to bomb down the defenses, and his infantry and rifles to seize the city. I would move in my eight rifles covering my eight cannon from near Mardoc, and he moves in his twenty or so surviving infantry and rifles from Zakalwe (which he took with only one loss on his turn).

We both claim Plako because it forks the our holdings on the continent, and culturally pressures them (especially whoever takes Profane). His problem is he currently doesn't have the siege to take it himself, and will need to wait several turns for the next round of reinforcements from his continent to make a move against Plako. My problem is I'm currently on mainly infrastructure builds across my core and would need another serious round of whipping/drafting to get an army big enough on into Incan territory (I thought my existing forces would be enough, then Rego tore apart my stack). He would probably be able to get his forces there sooner than mine, since mine don't exactly exist yet I bluffed a bit in our chat by saying I would be able to get a sizable stack there about the same time as him. He seems to be the one in the position of strength here, though he doesn't know it. Regardless, it does neither of us any good to pro-long this war.

His Final Proposal

- He receives Plako
- He does not culturally contest tiles beyond the city's second ring/does not build any major culture buildings like a theater (needs clarification)
- We sign a game long NAP
- He gifts me all his surviving units (mentioned he would help take Commodore). I need to inquire if this includes his super-medic, I presume not.
- I receive the city of T-Hawk

For the moment, I have the high ground in these negotiations, as the conversation basically consisted of me making observations and Shoot offering solutions, giving ground. He's frustrated, but not to the point where he is willing to break off the negotiations, and he hasn't realized my bluff yet. Basically I guilt-tripped him for the pair of extremely favorable deals I gave him in the past. This is in bad taste and I feel bad doing this in a ex post facto fashion. However, I feel obligated to try and make up for my earlier mistakes/noobishness. If I can use it to win these negotiations, so much the better.

I'd wager about a dozen assorted infantry and rifles will survive the attack. It would actually work quite well, and save me having to switch back into drafting/whipping mode in my core; allowing me to start my infrastructure push early while seizing additional territory from Rego.

Note to Self: Start work on settlers to re-found cities.

For reference, here is the city of Plako:



Still the most cultured city on the map, with all sorts of infrastructure in place, in addition to and academy and two now worthless wonders. think we can safely say much of it will survive the fall of the city - a city with three food resources and whatever mature towns Rego doesn't manage to pave over first.

T-Hawk:



T-Hawk is little more than a fishing village. However, it does have all the crucial infrastructure in place: a library, a courthouse, a granary, a lighthouse, a theater, and a bank. It's not very productive in Shoot's hands. However, in my hands, I can reclaim the first ring of tiles from NoSpace relatively quickly with all the culture buildings already there, and with the addition of a dike can make the city fairly productive.

Other things I could ask for:

Mardoc - Shoot plans on taking this city in the next couple turns.
Profane - It hasn't been clarified yet who gets this city, but its inferred that I will after the fall of Plako.
Gold
A Great Person
Something else I haven't thought of....

I feel like I could push this deal a little harder, because ultimately, he cannot take the city without me. And if he doesn't agree, I can simply snag Mardoc next turn and wait for my phantom 3rd army to come ashore. I would prefer that I get Plako as a return for the favors I've done for him. But he didn't budge on that when I broached the topic. So, to the lurkers out there:

[SIZE="5"]What would you do?[/SIZE]

Based on everything I have said here. Would you make possessing Plako non-negotiable? Would you push for more from the existing deal? Would you accept the deal as is?

Eagerly awaiting some second opinions

If it wasn't already painfully apparent over the last four months, I am way out of my league with these players, and I keep getting reminded of that in moments like this, where my tactical blundering has pushed me into a diplomatic corner.

Here's the complete chat log for anyone interested.

me: okay, at least it works out
but no, while I have you here
what territory do you want to claim from this war anyway
in addition to what you already have
Shoot: I plan to replant the city 3E of mardoc
and then probably just the cities I capture besides that
me: okay, refounding the four cities I razed on the mainland after Plako falls
I really feel like I need Plako
conjecture that neither of us can take the city until we get our reinforcemnets from our continents
I don't have enough rifles on hand
you don't have cannons or anything that can drop the city defenses
Shoot: I mean if you get plako I am equally as forked
I assume if you get plako I would get mardoc (at the very least) and mardoc, the replanted city and zakalwe all get rather screwed by plako
me: assumed you would take Mardoc
see your point
Shoot: not as hard as porfane does obviously, but still pretty badly
me: those cities aren't as culturally crushed by Plako
but yeah, still forked
Shoot: I mean where are you thinking of replanting?
I don't have visibility on city ruins for rego
me: same locations: Sciz, Actiondrip, Tatan and at Open
at 9 o clock
8 o clock
6 o clock
and 5 o clock respectively
in reference to Plako
pulling up map
Shoot: if you are planting on where the city ruins are currently, none of those are terribly crushed if I agree not to grow beyond my second ring
or rather plako's second ring
me: true, won't be as crushed as they are now
Shoot: be right back by the way
me: okay
Shoot: ok I'm back
how about this as a proposal:
if the attack on plako were to work, I would keep the city. I would agree not to culturally fight beyond the second ring (with buddhism in the city it might slowly go beyond that but I won't build buildings like say a theater). Because of the forking nature we would sign a long term (rest of game?) NAP. Finally, as payment for helping you bombard, I gift you any surviving units (gift, not loan) to help you finish off commodore)
essentially in exchange for the help with bombarding the city, I try to minimize its harm on you and help you with the rest of the war in which I get no more spoils
me: fair point
the deal is fair
I need time to consider it though
ask people lurking me for an opinion
Shoot: fair enough
me: frankly, after the game long iron for free and sinking 1,200 hammers into an extremely favorable loan of east Indiamen to you, I feel like I deserve the captial
Shoot: what would be your proposal?
me: something along the lines of we do the joint attack on the city, you gift it to me after you take it
sign a game long nap + no culture buildings in city
something to that effect
you obviously get Mardoc
Shoot: what if I were to throw t-hawk into my deal?
me: would definitely make it sweeter
still its a fishing village
Shoot: I mean it seems like a better deal than you are offering me
or at least closer to being fair, as obviously the problem here is that it's hard to find a solution with plako
me: granted, your deal is fair
I just feel like the EI deal was a bit one-sided in hindsight
Shoot: oh hindsight
you certainly benefited from it though
in all honesty this war would not have happened without a means of trasnporting the ridiculous amount of whipping/drafting I did
and I would not have had the window in terms of rego's tech pace to tech to them myself
me: true, it did benefit me indirectly by making your war effort possible and thus the entire war work
Shoot:
me: but it is also 1,200 hammers I sank into to give away so an ally could go make gains that I could have sunk into my own units or infrastructure
sorry, bad math
1,060
Shoot: I always kinda wondered why you chose to to that
me: noobishness
Shoot: although I also didn't think at the time of signing it it would be an issue later on

Note to Self: Briefly loan Shoot airships when the time comes for the assault since he has no artillery and to minimize casualties.

Note to Self: Start work on settlers to re-found cities.