[SPOILERS] Sandover(cre/spi) of Egypt

[Sandover]

I did say I would try to be entertaining, didn't I?

Next couple of messages;

Hello,


Apologies in advance for my using the line-by-line format for my responses in this email. It's a style that I personally dislike, but it seemed most efficient in this case.

I sense quite a change of tone. Maybe the worst heat have settled?

I think that we are quite close to reaching a peaceful resolution, yes. I'm going to war with someone (gotta put these troops to work!), but I'm certainly not dead-set on it being you.

Before I talk about other matters I will mention the past. Sure enough, we have been able to coexist for thousands of years now benefiting from trade as time went by - but neither you nor I ever directly addressed the matter of avoiding future wars. I thought of this as a common strategy of ours to keep our options open for the future, though maybe I was wrong in that assumption? My strategy was always based around keeping a sufficient defensive force at my borders and making sure I wouldn't fight any full-scale offensive wars on one end without making sure, through diplomacy at the stage of planning, that my other flank would remain secure during the conflict.

Oh, no misunderstanding there. This is a no-tech trading game without vassals or permanent alliances, and so it's unlikely that civilizations will (or should) cooperate beyond resource / unit / map / gold trades and temporary military partnerships of convenience. I never thought that our civilizations were married or joined at the hip or any such nonsense. I in fact intended to inquire as to whether you were willing to sign an NAP a few turns before my 3rd great person was to spawn, and then position troops accordingly had you refused, as I assumed that the main thing keeping you from attacking was desire to see your payment due. I did assume that you were going to attack TT again based on some of our earlier diplomatic correspondence, and it wasn't until two days ago that it dawned on me that I needed to actually secure that as a promise in writing. I do admit to be being surprised, and to a fair degree taken aback, that you would even consider attacking me when the Universal Union supplied Egypt with missionaries, trade routes (including access to timmy) and soon-to-be a great person. I obviously overestimated my own security, and have come very close to paying for my complacency. The fault is entirely my own.

I caught you making what I believed was an error when you didn't ask me to stay out of the Khmer conflict at an early stage, and TT's offer pushed me just enough in the right direction to try and exploit it. When you asked me to keep your flank clear I decided to come forward, expecting your reaction to be something like "whoops, pants down, better bargain myself out of it". Instead, you respond with forceful and emotional determination that you wish to ruin my game. I guess I can see where that is coming from, especially after having talked to Scooter, but I cannot respond to that in any other way than by flashing my muscles. If I back off now all I do is accept diplomatic defeat in a situation where I can achieve military success, and that is something I simply will not do.

Ah. It seems that my threats did not entirely have the impact I desired. Let me be upfront: I have no intention of throwing away my civ against yours just to ruin your game in some sort of blaze of kamikaze spite. As you note, military success against me is something which I think we both realize you can achieve. My goal is and was to assure you that should you elect to campaign against me over the issue of N.L.O., I would be damn sure to try my hardest to take you down with me. My best defense is to convince you, or any other opponent who wields disproportionate strength over me, that that a war of conquest would simply not be worth it- the cost in units, time, and gold too high for the ends to justify the means. It is not my life goal to make you suffer. If we remain in peace then I have many better things to do then skulk and plot in the alleyways and streets of City 17 of how to exact some grim retribution upon your civilization. But should we ever fight, then yes all bets are off.

You may have your war with Timmy so long as you do not retract on the Great Person, Missionaries or Sugar deals we have since way back. Your northern flank is safe from the moment you confirm those deals are still in place. We can discuss when we do our fighting once we see how the Khmer war develops, if it has to come to that. I might be a stubborn opportunist but I keep my word so please don't dishonour me by suggesting we sign one of those dreadful NAPs.

This certainly seems fair enough. My main concern here is that I fight timmy, hopefully achieve my limited objectives, and then you stomp me like 4 turns later once my army is depleted. Such a scenario would essentially be my acquiescing to the attack you had planned, except maybe a few weeks down the road. I won't try to force you to sign an NAP- I'm not a huge fan myself, although I have found they sometimes have their uses- but I do seek some sort of assurance that I'm not merely prolonging my own death sentence. My idea of us stationing minimal defenses on our shared border and/or allowing observers or a DMZ between us was one option. I could secure your flank if you go take your campaigns eastward- say, by prohibiting third parties from using my land to strike at you while you remain at war with TT / Moogle / whoever. I don't see a conflict between us as inevitable by any means, and I also understand your desire to keep options open. I hope you can likewise recognize my need for security, not only while I strike at timmy, but for at least some time afterward as well, when my military has taken blows and is deployed to my east.

Now, with that out of the way, I ask of you to meet me halfway. I accept that you're not willing to let go of your land through trade if you accept that I'm not willing to back off emptyhanded. I think you know just as well as me by now that we're both stubborn enough to go to war over these issues. The question is; where do we go from here? Will you gift me your first Great General if I supply some units for your campaign? Will you compensate my loss of trade route income? Will you give me the shrine income for every Egyptian city that is converted to Hinduism? Can you consider letting go of that wasteland you're yet to settle? Have you any other ideas?

I can accept giving up my first great general in exchange for some units, if it secures my north and N.L.O., and will assist in the war effort. Let me know what & when you're willing to trade. One possible problem- if I really suck at fighting timmy, then I might not get a great general, IMP notwithstanding. If that happens, and I make peace with him without spawning a single GG, how about I then concede to you the wasteland? I really hope I don't get whooped fighting him, but I do have to keep the possibility in mind :P I still think that my declaring on timmy helps you out a great deal in the long run, but I'm not going to make a sticking point of it or attempt to deny you compensation on those grounds. I do note though that it's not like you would continue to get trade routes with timmy anyway if you and I fought, so that income will eventually be lost regardless, unless I guess everyone sits around and builds and doesn't fight. Which is boring


Anyway, I think we're making progress. As a sign of good faith, this turn I continued to move my main body of troops toward timmy- and away from our border.


-Bobchillingworth

Dear Bob,

A Great General would be a suitable trophy for Egypt. I realise there's no quarantee one will be generated and accept your notion of letting my nation settle the wasteland if that's the case. As for the payment I suggest the three Praetorians and a Crossbowman since those are the units that can reinforce your eastern front the fastest (assuming you don't want the Axe/Spear pair I have as garrison in Chillingworth or the Woodsman Warrior).

You should be aware that a peaceful solution to this ordeal will be a sign for me to once again turn my attention east, and as such there should be no reason for us to engage each others in war when the Khmer campaign is over. However, if you still wish to establish a sentry net to further ensure that peace is maintained I'm not opposed to the idea so long as we can come to agreement here. Depending on how things develop with Germany it might even become suitable that we agree to both focus our expansion east for a long time to come, though that's mere speculation at this point.

What's the ETA on your next GP and the Sugar?

Regards,

Pharaoh Sandover of Egypt

It seems this is going to work out to my benefit after all. Granted, it's less than I bargained for but getting a Great General without having to risk my units while generating one is a serious bonus that is not to be sneezed at. If I get it it will either be used for a medic unit or to ensure that I can build triple-promo mounted units at Satet, depending on what seems most valuable at the time. I'm not celebrating until I hear Bob's counter-offer though...

I have a pretty clear idea how I want to proceed in my dealings with TT if this goes through, but I won't dial him up until I'm certain this is being resolved. And neither will I tell you about it until then.:neenernee

[Rowain]

I have a pretty clear idea how I want to proceed in my dealings with TT if this goes through, but I won't dial him up until I'm certain this is being resolved. And neither will I tell you about it until then.:neenernee

I hope you will not use his catapults against him . This would be very dastardly.

[Sandover]

Wrong. Care to guess again?

[Serdoa]

Send those catapults against SleepingMoogle, take the land with some of your troops and finally kill the sandwich-civ in between

[Sandover]

Nope, but you're getting closer.

[Sandover]

Heya,


Quick response:

The praets and a crossbow is acceptable. Next GP is 6 turns I believe (may be 5), sugar at about the same time.


-Bobchillingworth

Followed by;

Dear Chancellor,

Bob decided to ask for a secure border at the last minute before his Khmer campaign. I am no liar, and do not wish to hit him now as that would mean he'd never carry out the Khmer business (I want Timmy taken down a notch), so I'm calling off the invasion. Lets discuss where we can go from here.

My interpretation of your willingness to place your civ at an economical low to support my war effort is that you're either prioritizing securing your western border to a very high degree, or eager to have a real effect on the game while you're still strong enough. Either way, now that the attack on Rome isn't happening, I thought of an idea that will let you have both of that - if you're willing to give up a little in return.

My suggestion is that instead of giving me those Catapults you send them east, taking the battle to Moogle. I will supply you with elite units for you campaign - dual-promo Crossbowmen - and a NAP extension. What I ask of you in return is the city of Waltz and the Pig spot down at the coast, that you seem to be ages away from settling anyway, so that I may expand my territory a little. I'm sure that's not a very large price to pay for a real opportunity to gain some glory for Germany, not to mention the potential land gains you can make over there. I'm able to see Moogle's research, and he's slogging his way through Code of Laws at most, so you'll be facing ancient units for a while still. Meanwhile, I tech my way into the next age while I wait for the developements in the south to have their course before I... "get myself involved", so to speak.

What do say? I really hope we can keep working together, at least for the immediate future, as you've clearly shown that you're willing to aid me.

Regards,

Pharaoh Sandover of Egypt

Yes, you may recognize my proposal from somewhere else.

I'm not going to elaborate on it today as I'm spending the night out of town. You've seen her picture already.

[Rowain]

Wrong. Care to guess again?

I was not guessing. It was a simple statement of my feelings should you act so.

[Sandover]

I know. Just wanted to encourage some lurker activity in my thread, that's all.

To clarify; I've not received any Catapults from Germany and no longer expect to acquire them despite my having given him some gold as part of the deal. I might be a bastard at times (always?), but I wouldn't dream of neither forcing him to defend against his own Catapults nor defend against me without them.

This morning's correspondence with TT;

Dear Pharaoh,

I must say I find myself disappointed. I was getting geared up for helping you to war while keeping a strong defensive border with Moogle until a later war when things would be easier.

I do not understand why you gave such an assurance to bob when he tells you that he is sending his forces to his other flank. To attack at the same time would mean you make much greater gains with fewer losses. Attacking a Rome while it is distracted is one of the best times to attack them! If you've made an agreement there is no going back but I think you may regret it. A Rome with more land means more units are needed later.

My reason for offering to work with you was to demonstrate how valuable an ally I can be and to try and improve my civilisation's welfare by helping a stronger civ to win so I can come second. On my own my civ is weak, but I can provide good assistance to a strong ally willing to help.

For me to attack Moogle, I would need a cast-iron long term NAP and a LOT of military support. In a war with Moogle, I am currently in a much better position to defend than attack. I would be happy to concede the pig spot in return - but I will not even consider giving up Waltz unless I made major gains with Moogle.

The other problem is that my economy can not withstand taking much (if any) of Moogle's land. I am researching at a low rate and I will not be able to afford the maintenance of both the army and the cities I take into Moogle's land. I am not going to attack if i cannot hold my gains - as then either timmy or scooter get to exploit the bounties of my hard work.

I really wish you had at least attempted to discuss this with me before you made a commitment to bob which means a huge change to both yours and my civs. I have tried really hard to assist you as an ally and I am worried you do not want the same commitment.

Yours faithfully,

Chancellor Twinkletoes

Dear Chancellor,

I do not think you fully understand the ramifications that would have followed had I not granted Bob the safe flank. It is not only that Bob wouldn't have attacked Timmy - his withdrawal would also have lead to Scooter not attacking from the other side, as he, by his own saying, cannot stand up to Timmy on his own. I realise that you probably do not have Timmy's graphs at this point - maybe you haven't even met in game yet - but you need to know that he is becoming a runaway and that my inderictly protecting him by going to war against Rome now that Bob can see me coming would've been very bad for my chances to win the game. Timmy kicks some serious butt in all categories and he simply must be stopped before it's too late. I have more cities, but his land is way better than mine from what I've heard stated by other leaders, and I can see for myself how awesome his current production is even compared to mine.

I did put some pressure on Bob, but the best I could achieve was to secure his first Great General from the Khmer campaign. If one is not generated I will be granted the last city site between us instead, though this all faint in importance compared to having Timmy taken down a few cities. I'm not worried about Bob growing too strong as I'm more advanced than he is and have better troops. If he looks to be in a position to catch up with me I can stop it long before he does, being his neighbour and all.

I clearly stated several times that an attack on Rome at this stage of the game was very much dependant on subtlety, and such could simply not be achieved. One must always be willing to adjust one's plans when the circumstances change. The only convenient thing to do was to call off the invasion.

I understand that a runners-up position is looking attractive to you, but do you really think ruining your economy is the way to get there? Welfare is not gained by building Catapults - you should plant cottages and get some Libraries into action instead.

Anyway, the situation is such that I'm building a lot of military that I need to find a use for. If I do not continue to strengthen my nation at all times I risk letting others catch up with the slight lead I have established for myself, and I would much prefer if I didn't have to go to war with Germany to make that happen as you've shown to me your good intentions.

The troops I'd give you wouldn't be a mere symbolical gesture. As of last turn I had 10 Crossbowmen, and more are in production. Having to wait for you to make major gains before getting a return on my investment is not something I'd be willing to do, however, as you might be a sucky warlord for all that I know. A lengthy NAP-extension is not something I'm opposed to so long as it gets me what I asked for in return. Nevertheless, if your economy cannot handle my suggestion then I don't know what to do. I've already supplied Germany with a fair amount of gold - that I'm not asking to get back despite the invasion being called off - and aren't willing to by any means support a German war effort both in terms of soldiers and money, no matter how much I'd like Moogle to take a fall.

So... I guess I'm asking if there's any way we can work this out to both of our benefit?

Regards,

Pharaoh Sandover of Egypt

Now that's a rather long message for the sake of saying "give me what I want or I'll come take everything you have".

I'm such a bully. Poor neighbours.

[Sandover]

Right, I promise I'll add some pictures to the walls of text once I'm back home (whenever that is). It's just that there's been such an amazing amount of diplomacy going on between turns 100 and 102 (and we're still some hours away from reaching turn 102!)

One thing I've probably neglected to tell you about is the faith of the three War Chariots I sent to attack Moogle. They will be gifted to Scooter in exchange for his, Bob's and Moogle's map as he's researched paper and want to use those units against Timmy. I'm going to do a large update in terms of what the world looks like once I get those maps, but there's still some turns before I can gift Scooter the units and receive my reward. Anyway, I most likely won't be doing any more overview pictures until then for this reason, but I will find something to show you.

[Rowain]

Poor neighbours.

Indeed especially poor TT