[Mjmd #60] Why even buy toys for kids?

[Tarkeel]

Any thoughts on which traits you'd like to pair it with?

(Don't forget that PB56 was a donut where green is the default setting)

[Mjmd]

Any thoughts on which traits you'd like to pair it with?

(Don't forget that PB56 was a donut where green is the default setting)

Will see how I feel once everyone else picks. I like pairing India with Imperialistic. So Imp/Ind Augustus (which I think would be fun, try to stonehenge and Oracle) or you know old faithful Imp/Fin Vicky. Try to get stonehenge either way though.

Tarkeel only read this if you want some um vile, I'm going to rant on start a bit and get it out of my system.

I may have softened my original analysis, because I like Tarkeel and new map maker, but just to put it out there from PB54:

Repeat after me: "It is ok to give your small community base that will spend a significant portion of their time for the next 4 months an exciting start"

The literal most exciting and fun part of these pitbosses to me (and based on posting rate) to others is the picking and starts.

-Any start where the food is only a fishing and 4 food AH start should just never happen. EVER. PB52 and PB54 I got this delightful combo as well. This one SIP you don't even get the fish to go with it, but instead double down on needing fishing and get a whale instead which you would prefer 1 strong food.
-The savior here is you can move and waste a turn of the game for the privilege. I'm not even sure with a fish/agr/hunt 2/3 civ its correct to SIP, but map makers shouldn't try to limit what civs are playable sooooo ya, why even give it as an option?
-Unlike PB52 and PB54 there are about half as many forests. I expect 4/5 for the moved location to be chopped PRONTO. There shouldn't be jungle in a bfc unless its on the sugar. Even auto generated maps don't do this.
-The cow not being on a river is frustrating as well for the whole you should probably tech fishing even if you move to the likely correct location either way. Oasis instead would be preferable.
-Oh if you do move you now have dead (later anyways) tiles in your bfc because they are water and its not on water. Oh you also pick up a ton of plains tiles.
-Your welcome for settling puzzle where you lose either way!

-My pb56 start I think should be a good low point of starts to look at. 3 foods: fish and then cow and dry rice. You don't NEED to improve cow pronto, Food resources other than fish aren't amazing, but have multiple so you can split them off / share.

[Tarkeel]

Will see how I feel once everyone else picks. I like pairing India with Imperialistic. So Imp/Ind Augustus (which I think would be fun, try to stonehenge and Oracle) or you know old faithful Imp/Fin Vicky. Try to get stonehenge either way though.

Tarkeel only read this if you want some um vile, I'm going to rant on start a bit and get it out of my system.

That's ok, it's good to get it out of the system.

[Tarkeel]

I've only looked at your thread so am unspoiled, but not sure if I can help with the start analysis because I don't know almost anything about civ 4.

I think Mjmd would be a good player to learn from. I can't really comment on the start analysis here though.

[Mjmd]

@Thrawn feel free to ask questions. I kind of um skipped doing a trait analysis as they haven't changed a lot in CtH and I've done a couple of times. Real brief now that I know I have someone who might actually care!!!!

India - India busted yo. Its all about the fast worker which vs base civ4 gets mobility I (which basically means they can move onto a forest or unforested hill and start working pronto). Charriu for a couple patch versions upped their hammer costs and I played them still!!!! Absolutely great at chopping out stuff early. I'll probably research agriculture and then go bronze working and chop out a fast second worker. India is just a blast to play and feels like cheating. A lot of players like choosing stuff they haven't before. I've played sooo many single player games and India is soo fun this is now 3/6 games I've choosen India.

Imperialistic - the reason imperialistic goes so well with India is you then use that second worker and with the 50% bonus you chop out a settler probably at pop 2 before you even have a warrior. Never gets you in trouble I swear (definitely got warrior rushed by SD in PB54 because I was a noob and didn't keep scout close). Imperialistic is also nice on food poor maps as you can easily 2 pop whip settlers without having to put a chop into them (usual method for non imperialistic early). You get more city growth turns this way and save forests / worker time for other projects. I will note I ded lurked Amica in PB55 who picked India after fast worker was reverted back to 60 hammers and was played without Imperialistic. That was the 2nd best start I've seen on realms though and I had to jump through a lot of hoops when doing early micro for Amica (so I kind of did India 4/7).

Industrious - its probably not wise to pick a trait that multiple other people think needs a buff......... That being said if no one else picks it I would love to do it for fun. Amica / Tarkeel have made my single player love of monk wonders burn. Idea would be to go stonehenge into oracle in the same city (probably 2nd or 3rd city as again all caps forests will be gone). Stonehenge giving free +1 culture monuments will help city placement and growth and both will work on a great prophet for an early shrine which will be basis of early economy (its usual to pick one early game trait and one economic / late game trait; industrious doesn't qualify per se, but there are multiple ways to get extra gold from wonders. Oracle would hopefully grab Metal casting for the discounted forges and of course colossus, which gives +1 commerce to water tiles.

Financial - In the past I've paired Imperialistic with financial as its still (and was even better then) the best late game economic trait. Extra commerce basically means that all the modifier buildings are extra good.

Organized - between the savings on Civic upkeep (which start before financial kicks in) and multiple building discounts organized is a very strong 2nd economic trait and I wouldn't be surprised if people pick it over financial especially on emperor where it gets a tiny bit better.

If you want thoughts on other traits ask, but those are ones I'm considering along with Imperialistic.

[Charriu]

India - India busted yo. Its all about the fast worker which vs base civ4 gets mobility I (which basically means they can move onto a forest or unforested hill and start working pronto).

Just wanted to mention this for the sake of teaching Thrawn about the game. India's Fast Workers can do the same in the base game, but there they have 3 moves instead of 2 and no mobility I. The mobility I version is a slight nerf of the unit.

[Tarkeel]

@Thrawn feel free to ask questions. I kind of um skipped doing a trait analysis as they haven't changed a lot in CtH and I've done a couple of times. Real brief now that I know I have someone who might actually care!!

I always like reading trait analysis, especially how they might apply to this specific start/map.

[Mjmd]

Yep all about the fast snowball. To be fair we still haven't had a final decision on WW, but the UB is so late you usually don't need by that point. I'm 100% choosing for the fast worker.

Sugar is a 3 food tile to settle on vs settling anything else being 2 food. If you settle on the plains hill you get an extra hammer. While for building initial worker this is the same, for growing your city over and over it is not. The fact I gain 2 forest not on hills is also nice for my fast workers. I will go agriculture first and improve the wheat probably, but yes then I will go BW. The cow is still 3 food unimproved (vs 4f and 2 H), so its more trading efficiency for time. Also as mentioned get to chop an extra work out basically. Knowing where copper is is also super important. AH gives you horse, but BW is better for defending farmers gambits because most likely early attacking unit is a chariot (due to speed getting to target) and 1 spear can hold those pretty easily.

So oddly the chances I'll end up with a religion are pretty descent, but you can't really control the spread early. Therefore stonehenge does help providing a free 30h worth monument. Some games you don't need culture as much as others, just depends on map, but usually it still easily worth the value the wonder. The great person points provided are also very valuable. If i do end up with a religion Stonehenge and or Oracle are some of the easier ways of getting a shrine going, which helps spread rate and also provides a gold per city.

Unsure, I know I've run in windowed mode to screenshare with a friend in the past, but I don't generally play that way.

[Tarkeel]

As you probably know, each civilization gets a special unique unit and building, which improve upon an existing. India's building is the Mausoleum, improving the basic jail (which has the WW reduction) with +2 happy. This isn't bad, but since the jail itself is barely worth the cost, it's not a huge factor in selecting India.

Cities in civ4 will only expand their borders with culture, and the usual ways of dealing with this is either selecting a leader with CREative trait (+2 culture in all cities), building an early building with culture or simply forgoing expanded borders for a while. The monument is most often this early building, and the best way to get it built is either a forest chop (which will give 2/3rd of the cost) or whipping a population (which requires the city to have grown). Both of these take time and/or worker effort as well as careful placement, which is why having them for free with Stonehenge is very lucrative.

Religion is only a reliable way for culture if you invest hammers into missionaries to spread it to new cities.

[Charriu]

Religion is only a reliable way for culture if you invest hammers into missionaries to spread it to new cities.

It's worth mentioning that if you are aiming for religion then you want your religion in your cities anyway, so it's not really a downside to use religion for culture.