[PB79] MirOh No, what am I doing?

[Miro]

I'm going to suggest doing some map tests before picking. Or asking Gav and I. I've been trying not to influence too much, but if you want more opinions I can do that.

The picks thus far have been interesting.....

I did a few. I thought about leaders for a bit and I'm sure my leader pick (Lieu-Ye) isn't anything impressive. Roosevelt or Darius I seemed more reasonable, but I'm committed to playing like a pro with PRO. I wanted Dutch myself and I'm not married to a #2 pick, so I'll let rickety take a civ before I think over China, Rome, or England.

Initially, I didn't want starting techs to be much of a factor behind my civ choice, but the tests made me really want to start with 2 out of Agriculture, Fishing, and Mining. I can chop a T25 Settler and get out a 2nd Worker by T30. My main concern is what the 2S 3W tile is like; I want to share Cows with my 2nd city if I can. I'm also curious about the 3E forest. I don't think temperate forests appear around deciduous forests unless they contain a resource, but it could have just been manually added by map maker. Either way, if I can get a decent 2nd city @ 2S 3W, I'd like to share cottages with a 3rd city to the east as my next goal.

Also concerned about what a race for GLH looks like right now. I would normally skip it, but it seems decent for me right now and based on my opponents water-related picks (Dutch, Carthage), I'm worried this is a water-heavy map and they'll rush it.

When you say the picks were interesting, do you think Dutch is unimpressive in multiplayer? Would it have been a poor first choice for me if I had the chance?

[Mjmd]

So again early has better payoff than late. England is fine for a big game block pick (see Gav PB74), but its payoff is late. Dutch even on a water map are also a later payoff (and we aren't sure how naval this map is mind you). Also, its kind of like Byzantium, where people know they have to slow you down.

China has a good UU, but its in kind of a weird time where not a lot of wars happen. If this is more of a naval map mind, it is good there as its only unit that can collateral off of boats. To note starting tech costs were adjusted so they aren't OP there anymore.

Are you growing to size 2 on workboat to start or going worker first? Not sure off hand which is better, but I'm sure you saw, work boat can be built without fishing in case your civ choice doesn't start with fishing.

[Gavagai]

Do we know this is a water-heavy map? I don't remember seeing anything about it but I can't say I paid much attention.
Generally, you need to keep in mind that this is a small game with five players, probably all on one continent and it will likely be decided around the Renaissance era or even earlier. I would advise choosing a civ with a strong early-game impact for this one.

[Miro]

Are you growing to size 2 on workboat to start or going worker first? Not sure off hand which is better, but I'm sure you saw, work boat can be built without fishing in case your civ choice doesn't start with fishing.

Yeah I love that change! My current plan is to go size 2 with Work Boat, then Worker (Rice, then chop x2), Warrior with size 3, Settler, Worker. It seemed to do a lot better than the Worker-first run. Didn't test skipping the Warrior for a size-2 Settler.

I might not put a farm on the Cows, I can get BW then AH in time to put a Pasture on it, but AH that early seems unnecessary with this start. I'll see if my 2nd city would need AH.

What's religion like in multiplayer? My neighbors are all going to be kind and send me free Missionaries like I'm used to, right?

[Miro]

Do we know this is a water-heavy map? I don't remember seeing anything about it but I can't say I paid much attention.
Generally, you need to keep in mind that this is a small game with five players, probably all on one continent and it will likely be decided around the Renaissance era or even earlier. I would advise choosing a civ with a strong early-game impact for this one.

I was only assuming based on my start and my opponents' water-related picks. I'm guessing they have nice coastlines, too, but I suppose these maps are balanced for us to all have a decent coastline or compensation.

Ok England goes in the garbage then. No beans for breakfast for my empire, we'll live off sushi and wagyu. Say, that gives me a new civ idea...

[Mjmd]

I don't think we know much about the map other than tiny tectonics (water lvl on lakes) but adjusted to standard for tech costs. But yes agree with Gav.

Sounds like solid micro and a T25settelr is very good, but it is a very good start. Work boat change is also one of my favorites especially for random  single player maps.

Sending missionaries is VERY rare. However, religions also don't go immediately like single player. Shockingly people like worker techs for some reason . With your traits you won't need to prioritize because you should be able to get one later (especially with only 5 people), but will see how map looks ect.

[Tarkeel]

I did a few. I thought about leaders for a bit and I'm sure my leader pick (Lieu-Ye) isn't anything impressive. Roosevelt or Darius I seemed more reasonable, but I'm committed to playing like a pro with PRO. I wanted Dutch myself and I'm not married to a #2 pick, so I'll let rickety take a civ before I think over China, Rome, or England.

Lieu-Ye is probably the best economic leader (on EMP), but many like picking atleast one trait to accelerate the early game. Roosevelt is a builder's dream leader though (*cough* PB58 *cough*).

Initially, I didn't want starting techs to be much of a factor behind my civ choice, but the tests made me really want to start with 2 out of Agriculture, Fishing, and Mining.

That's very common actually and the cookie-cutter approach to selecting a civ.

When you say the picks were interesting, do you think Dutch is unimpressive in multiplayer? Would it have been a poor first choice for me if I had the chance?

Dutch are strong but very late, so if you get there in a decent shape you're likely to win. The other players also know this, and will challenge you in the earlier parts.

What's religion like in multiplayer? My neighbors are all going to be kind and send me free Missionaries like I'm used to, right?

Sending missionaries to other players usually only happen in the Renaissance to feed a shrine, and even then people will try to target the cities where you don't get benefits. You're much more reliant on passive spreads (which require a trade route to the holy city). There usually is some religious play targeting the "monk"-wonders: Apostolic Palace, University of Sankore and Spiral Minaret (Angkor Wat and Sistine Chapel also give benefits here).

[greenline]

I don't think I've seen a game where people tried to attack a Dutch player early to slow their late game potential. The Dike boost comes in the industrial era, where the game is way more likely to have been decided by neighbor luck in the medieval / renaissance period by that point (how often do you see people worried about Germany's late game potential just because of the early factories?). Usually people are looking out for the galleon attack when someone picks Dutch, and a galleon rush can very easily be a mixed bag. The Dutch also have good starting techs even though they have no UU, so they are not really an easy target early on compared to a civ like Byzantium.

[Mjmd]

To be fair I think Dutch hasn't gotten picked much and even less on maps its been relevant. 

Anyways, lets do analysis.

Coldrain: Lincoln (PHI/CHA) of Native America - For my thoughts on Lincoln see my / now Cairos PB77 thread (if you can). NA I like SOMETIMES. But usually its some variant game, which this is not. I rate this combo as either the weakest or 2nd weakest. However, player is usually more important than the combo and I know nothing of the player as mentioned. 

Giraflorens: Pacal (FIN/EXP) of Dutch (Netherlands) - this a GREAT long game pick. The problem is that there is no evidence there is the kind of room for this pick to shine. Also Gira has a weak history getting out of the early game (and exp is a trait you want some good early game micro). I would have liked a simple Zara like pick with some early game civ. Or imp org/fin. I didn't mention it but imp is great for struggling greens. Just make sure you are relevant trait. Probably not winning the game, but its a good trait for being relevant and simple early game.

xist10: Wang Kong (PRO/FIN) of Carthage - Wang Kong has been on my list to try for a while and I consider this to be your main competition. That being said, as I said one of Xist's weaknesses I witnessed was early game (not to extent of Gira or Rickety but still), neither of you has traits that help, so out early game and you are good. I've never been a fan of Carthage, but they do have good starting techs although one can question why not pick Rome, but eh. The UU is mediocre and the UB is also mediocre. Neither is bad, but neither is good.

Miro: Lieu-Ye (ORG/PRO) of China - Nice safe builder leader and best early teching. Inside track on GLH if end up wanting. Key thing will be to focus on the early game micro and expanding well. China isn't my sort of civ (I like econ UBs or India as mentioned). However, with good early teching should be able to reach relative safety of its UU fairly easily. If this ends up being a naval map the UU also good there.

ricketyclik: Shaka (EXP/AGG) of Rome - Is the plan to do a super early praet attack? Get granaries up and whip out a bunch of praets and attack? If so this pick makes sense. However, like Gira I would have liked a more balanced leader here. Just get Rickety expanding well and use Rome as a "don't touch me" / "opportunity is present lets attack". While the current combo should*** keep anyone from overwhelming early again, there is zero long term viability here in my opinion. Agg is a somewhat econ trait, but it won't keep up with even Lincoln let along any of the even more focused 3 econ leaders. Even from a pure attack with as much as early as possible I myself am a fan of imp/agg. Or heck just imp/org to afford it...... Again, for exp to shine I think it might take too much micro for my granted little experience with Rickety. But ya somewhere around rifles / cannons I expect Rickety to get conquered assuming he can learn from past lessons / hopefully current and get his early game in order. 

FY for early game scouting. I like doing circles. Especially with protective and probably avoiding wheel until after 1st settler is out will want to settle on coast either east or west. So start one direction and then circle back other way. Be mindful of what border pop will show. Also, that barbs are on, so starting T4 I believe they start spawning so start ending on hills or forests most times. I like keeping scout alive and nearby especially for barb on games; so wouldn't do more than 2 partial circles worth.

[Gavagai]

Coldrain's pic is the only one I really dislike. I think it only makes sense to take PHI in a snakepic if you want to build you whole game around it but there is no synergy with PHI whatsoever. Also, funny how how no one took IMP, for me it would be the highest priority pic given the settings.